Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Saturday, 28th August 2021, 11:51

Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Welcome friends.

As part of the 0.28 cycle I have an experimental branch to overhaul the Hells. Click the link for all the details, here's the quick executive summary:
  • each subbranch has its own branch wide "hell effect" that is always on
  • timed hell effects only do strategic damage, so you don't wait around
  • Hell branch levels 1-6 are half the size of a usual level in each linear dimension (that is a max of 40x35, or 25% the size of a normal level), but only place 1 pair of stairs
  • Trash mobs are removed from the spawn table and replaced with new and meaner monsters

If you want to play it now, online, you can at https://crawl.dcss.io; note that games here won't be tracked in global scoring.

It's still a work in progress (you can see the todo checkboxes, do comment if you're interested in helping with artwork or making vaults) but at this stage all of the mechanical and monster changes are implemented.

Please send in your playtesting feedback. The most helpful comments are based on actual experience and not theory crafting without playing it.

Of course, it takes a hot minute to reach hell, so this thread will probably also have plenty of theory and flavour chatter.

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nago, petercordia, PurpleRed

Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 28th August 2021, 15:53

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

This is exciting. Thanks ebering! I'll probably give it some play testing and get back to you later.

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Post Wednesday, 1st September 2021, 06:32

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

This is now live in trunk!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 3rd September 2021, 18:46

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

ebering wrote:This is now live in trunk!

Time for some experimenting!
Spoiler: show
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Post Saturday, 4th September 2021, 20:15

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

I have feedback from playing trunk (currently at 11 runes with 3x hell branches left to pass). I hope that this advice won't be taken lightly.

#1: The strategic effects of draining and contamination are not strategic. They cause multiple runs back into Pan or Abyss to repair insanely reduced health, stats, and to get rid of mutations. Because the monsters in hells are significantly tougher, the process becomes a grind: kill some, retreat, grind off effects, kill more, retreat, grind off effects. Eventually you kill off enough monsters that you can get to the boss (I mean just walk directly to it) with enough health and stats to actually even have the fight successfully.

#2: Monsters should respawn in hells, maybe with a decent rate, but not necessarily only super-powerful ones (some middle of the road too). Without the "strategic effects", this would result in the hell branches being one difficult dive to kill the boss that you couldn't grind down by just starting over and over. This would more effectively accomplish what I think the strategic effects are trying to accomplish, but failing to do so and simply resulting in the experience becoming more tedious than it's ever been.

With these two combined changes, I think hells would be fantastic. I think the passive effects are a good idea and work. The increased strength of monsters is also fun.

---
OK a couple more things, I just finished with 15 runes.

Dis felt a lot harder than the other branches overall. This is hard to quantify but it was just such a stronger set of monsters, and it felt like the drains were faster in there but that could have been bad luck. On the other hand - just to get enough mutation potions to counteract the contamination, I wound up doing Zig27 for a pile of 12 mutation potions that solved the issue. There was still a lot of back-and-forth with Zin to get rid of the muts, and rebuilding piety in Pan with TSO before heading back into the hells. So, I was also a lot stronger.. a gnoll with all 27 skill levels and pretty decent gear by the end. I was gimped on gear when doing Dis. I normally start gnolls with Gozag, but I tried Chei this game, and while it was strong-well, I didn't enjoy it much, and it was weaker later. I don't see any way I could have survived doing these hells with Chei, LOL. Mathematically, it's quite a struggle to keep health+mana up, and without them being replenished from tso, good grief. I would consider Zin, but I don't know, maybe another game. I'm not in a big hurry to clear these new hells again. At least, not with the "strategic effects" in play.

In addition to the respawn suggestion, if a hell branch is exited, then it could also get a lot of it's population of monsters reset, like a speed-respawn event. This would stop the branches from getting whittled down better than them getting cleared out but having a spawn rate. Could it be farmed? Sure.. but so can abyss and pan so-what. With a full reset, it would be equally dangerous each time it was entered. It's not exactly where I'd choose to farm also as it's pretty dangerous. I'd say when you first enter, you should get dropped in a random location (not on the upstairs) and if you want out, you have to look for the exit the same as you have to find the downstairs. That would prevent stair-dance farming.
Last edited by svendre on Sunday, 5th September 2021, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

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petercordia

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Post Sunday, 5th September 2021, 06:29

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Stat drain seems to be way over the top. I took a trip in Gehenna, and by the time I reached G:7, my dexterity was reduced from 19 to minus 7. WTF.

I also don't understand the point of having only 1 downstair. If it is hidden in some weird corner (which happens), you just circle around getting annoyed and frustrated.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd September 2021, 14:06

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

It took me until now to get my first character into the new hells, a Draconian Conjurer of Vehumet. Either it's this background, or some tweaks made to the reformed hells in between, but I can't confirm the bad experiences of those writing before me.

https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/Majang/morgue-Majang-20210922-205137.txt

I did not experience any contamination - I guess this has been replaced by Abyss-like temporary mutations. This is certainly a good change, because these mutations work themselves out of the system on their own.

I certainly experienced a lot of max-hp drain, but that was almost always up to normal levels before the next drain kicked in. It certainly never got me into dangerously low levels, and I therefore never had to leave the hells because of that. I did have to leave a couple of times when under attack with very little health left, but in the new system, because of the lack of constant respawns, it was easy to get down to the level I left behind.

The new monsters are exciting and dangerous, and I was happy to have two level-9 conjurations at my disposal (particularly chain lightning) plus Maxwell's Capacitive Coupling for really tough monsters such as Iron Golems.

The four strategic hell effects are noticeable - it feels a bit like fighting with one hand tied to your back, or like doing things with Ru, but it did not add an insurmountable challenge.

Vehumet and an amulet of RegenMP helped with recharging times, so I guess that spending more time on getting MP up would have led to a more severe experience. But the way it worked out this time, I think I enjoyed the new hells a lot more than the old ones.

Clearly I had a very strong character for this, that already had all of Pan and a Ziggurat under its belt, but honestly, I wouldn't go down into the hells with a mediocre character before the reform either.
Last edited by Majang on Thursday, 23rd September 2021, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
Maɟaŋ

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Post Wednesday, 22nd September 2021, 22:21

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

The hell effects have been tuned based on feedback. Good to see they're landing closer to the mark now.

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Majang, svendre

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Post Friday, 24th September 2021, 20:28

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/N ... 084127.txt

A 15-rune win with a GrCA before you toned down contam/drain/etc.
10 of the Gr-hs are currently hold by me.
I have 58 hs in total, 449 15-rune-wins and a win% of 67%.

I writing this to stress that usually I know pretty well how not to die and how to get 15 runes no matter what I start with.

This game was absolutely different.
The most terrible and boring grinding experience I've ever endured.
As you can see I ended the game wit str 7 (26), Int 11 (21), Dex 19 (20)
It is pretty difficult to kill anything then.
The more difficult it is to kill anything the more hell effects you get.

Yes, I know that my god was Ignis but my normal turncount for a gargolye is around 50k even without a god.
(I didn't want a TSO-win because TSO of anything can beat extended without stats/slaying. This wouldn't have been a test for trunk)

Here it was >90k.

By 'grinding' I mean this:
- doing ziggs to finally get items with additional slaying/Str/Int/Dex because I knew the game was set to lower them.
- walking endless turns in abyss to regain stats and remove drain.
- doing depth/zot/vault in preparation for Hell. Usually I skip most of it with a gargoyle.

For a caracter with something like 40 Int it doesn't matter that much whether he has -10 to int. Spells are castable but less powerful.
But for someone with 25 Int it means hardly any spells at all.
With 7 str melee is a joke.
At 0 you are paralyzed which means most likely insta-death in these smaller areas which are much more crowded with much stronger/asymmetric monsters.

At several points in the game I was down to stats like above and 85 hp.
Maximum.
Frail 3 and stat drain.

My wife heard me cursing and asked me why I even play this game
This was a very good question.
It was the most stupid experience and the only thing that kept this gargoyle alive ( as I promise each of my characters when I start a game) was that I love(d) the game (it is the only game I play) and wanted to show that I can beat every single bull-shit even with 85 maxhp, str 7 and Int 15 just helped by my pure will to keep my pixelman alive.

40k turns of grinding because I knew what to expect.
I died with another gargoyle before in cocytus unspoiled and bewildered.

What I didn't find: items with a *lot* of stat/slaying bonus.
The whole time I was thinking about other combos I've played before who relied on several options to survive extended.
Stealth ? Invisible ?

You removed a lot of depth of the game and introduced an incredible grinding mechanism.
According to your game philosophy this is the opposite of what you want.
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Post Saturday, 25th September 2021, 20:18

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

You enter the Hells with Ignis as your god and complain that it was a bad experience? What exactly is your point?
Maɟaŋ

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Post Saturday, 25th September 2021, 20:41

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Majang: maybe you missed that Nebukadnezar knows what (s)he is talking about, he played hells lot of times without a god. To get a good estimate of the effects, he showed that:
- it is possible to win with relatively week characters (as (s)he mentioned it would not have been possible with a character of TSO etc.)
- it is increadibly tedious, which is exactly the opposite of the game philosophy.
This is very useful to know, even if the criticism could be a little obsolete, as the effects had been toned down. But even if they are toned down, this unfortunate feature of the hell effects that Nebukadnezar showed remains:
- either the character is strong enough such that the strategic penalties are cleared while in Hells. This outcome is not very interesting.
- or the character is not strong enough, and need to take tours to Abyss etc. to clear up the effects. This sounds horrible.

So I conclude that the strategic effects are not good, not matter what. I get that the developers want to discourage resting in hells, but I would rather try to find some other methods. (Altough toned down effects may be somewhat ok, if not very interesting.)

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Post Saturday, 25th September 2021, 20:49

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

To get some brainstorming about the strategic effects: I do not get the point of "discouraging resting". To the best of my knowledge you can still reset by leaving Hells and grinding down the effects somewhere (like Abyss).

1.) If the intended effect of these strategic penalties to sometimes force (weaker) characters to leave the Hell branch early and grind down the effects elsewhere, I think it would be better to simply remove all such Hell generated strategic effects upon leaving the Hell branch that generated it, sparing the player of grinding in Abyss.
2.) If we want some kind of soft timer for every Hell branch (with the danger that weaker characters may not be able to get the rune), I still think it would be best to remove all Hell generated strategic penalties upon leaving a Hell branch, but adding them back immediately when re-entering the same branch. So they can only be removed inside the Hell branch.

Allow characters to leave the Hell branch and clear the effects in the Abyss or somewhere sounds horrible design to me.
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Post Saturday, 25th September 2021, 22:46

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

@Sanka: I don't doubt that Nebbu knows what s/he is doing. But whoever enters the Hells with a weak character and then finds that the place can only be beaten by grindy behaviour gets what they deserve. I think the point of the hells is that it is a place that you don't need or want to enter with just about any character that makes it to Zot. It is an entirely optional place with extra challenges. These challenges lead to a rewarding game experience for a well-prepared character, and they lead to a tedious nightmare or death for not-so-well prepared characters. So, if you are not well prepared, don't go there, or face the consequences without complaining.

No, the new hells are not against the game philosophy. The hells are supposed to be a very different place to all other levels of the game, with mechanics that should deter most characters from entering. That was the case before and after the reform, but for a well-prepared character the new hells now appear to be less tedious than before, but still challenging. If we follow your or Nebbu's reasoning, any change to the Hells would be open to the criticism that they are either not challenging enough, or so challenging that they can only be beaten by tedium, if they can be beaten at all. This is, btw, a correct statement about any change to the game, and as such any criticism based on that idea is not terribly helpful.
Maɟaŋ

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Post Sunday, 26th September 2021, 09:17

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Majang: Perhaps I explained my position badly, but I think you misunderstood it.

You claim that "If we follow your or Nebbu's reasoning, any change to the Hells would be open to the criticism that they are either not challenging enough, or so challenging that they can only be beaten by tedium, if they can be beaten at all."

But I have tried to show you with my brainstorming ideas that this is not true. See my number 2.) idea above. If the strategic effects can only be cleared up inside the Hell branch then either you are strong enough to beat the branch without too much tedium or you won't beat it at all. Tedious visits to the Abyss won't help.

Nebukadnezar's demnstration showed that it *is* possible to beat the challenge with tedium, and any challenge that can be beaten with tedious tacticts (can only be beaten with such tactics if your character is not strong enough) is against the game philosophy. Perhaps this point is hard to get because many things in DCSS still falls into this category -- so it is hard to see that this is still the philosophy of the game, even if the game (which I like) falls short of the aim.

In short: the challenge should be such that if you fail you die (or at least need to escape permanently leaving the rune/reward behind etc.), not that if you fail you get out and spend 10.000 turns in the Abyss.
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Post Sunday, 26th September 2021, 09:29

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Fair enough - I wouldn't be against your proposed changes. Nebbu would still try to go in there with Fedhas or Ignis and beat everything to death with an unenchanted club, because he can. This is the problem you don't see: people like Nebbu are so good at the game that they can try the most outrageous things and get away with it - at the price of experiencing incredible tedium. But, let's face it, most people don't fall into that category and are quite happy if they survive a hell branch at all, with the strongest character they can field - I certainly fall into that category. I hope that the developers take people like me as their target audience. So far they have, or the game would have fallen into disuse a long time ago.
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Post Sunday, 26th September 2021, 09:38

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

That's fair to request that the target difficulty should be aimed to more average players, which I am one too (I only beat all four hells in 1 game).

But what I try to say that the mechanic is bad independently of the difficulty level: it is just that if the difficulty will be toned down to someone like me, it is more hidden. But the mechanic is still the same:Nebukadnezar perhaps can beat it in one go (without tedium), but if I play badly and get too many bad mutations because I am way slower, I still can get out and clear them up in the Abyss. I do not argue that the Hells should be hard: I think there is no "sweet spot" in how frequent semi-permanent mutations are ok, just that if the frequency is low enough so it does not matter for average players/characters, then we have successfully swept the problem under the rug.

I think that my 2. proposal (strategic penalties can only be cleared up inside the Hell branch that created them, and only present there) would be good, but of course we need a severly toned down version of the penalties, so that in an average run you get a few bad mutations /draining etc. but not too much.
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Post Sunday, 26th September 2021, 11:44

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

I don't understand you. Nebukadnezar did not beat the Hells in one go with his Ignis gargoyle, and he complained about a lot of tedium. So the new system is punishing him/her for doing something that shouldn't be done: enter the hells with a character that doesn't belong there. The very fact that this punishment now exists in a case where he previously could go about it without tedium proves that the new system actually works better than before. You can beat the hells without tedium, but some danger (as I did with my strong Draconian), or you go in there with an unprepared character and die. It's only people like Nebbu who don't die, and they experience tedium. Fine by me.
Maɟaŋ

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Post Sunday, 26th September 2021, 21:15

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

This seems like a pretty unproductive series of speculative theory crafting posts, since, as Nebu pointed out, their playtests were based on an earlier iteration of the effects, and not the subsequent tuning.

Much more useful would be things like Majang's post-tune play testing report from other players (including Nebu).

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Post Monday, 27th September 2021, 13:45

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Well, I did experience the original Hells with the full strategic harshness in effect, and won, but it did require some pan grinding to bring stats back up. I also did a Zig to combat the mutations. I'd say, short of an insanely powerful character in the original iteration, there wasn't anything that anyone was going to do (no matter how skilled or prepared) that would result in an outcome that made any sense, as clearing the entire path and simply walking to the final hell boss could be enough to deplete your stats to a nearly unworkable state.

Since the tuning, I've noticed a remarkably better experience. It's still hell, and it's still a bad place, but I took a gargoyle through there without any scumming of pan, abyss or zig and won with 15 runes. The hells were harder than the old ones, but it was doable without grinding. The gargoyle I used wasn't especially overpowered, though I did design it after having experienced some pain fooling around with more difficult builds and it was high on my scale as far as well built for the task (ice gargoyle with vortex and tso at the end).

By the way, in case anyone thinks scumming abyss is a thing, that is pretty silly. Pan scumming, OK, that's a thing.. but if you were trying to work off drained stats, the monsters in abyss would take a lot longer, and the risk of getting bad mutations would probably also be higher, along with way less life/mana if you're with TSO, and TSO in pan is better than whatever in Abyss. Just saying.

I suspect that the strategic effects still won't be loved, primarily because you can't "play better" to avoid them, they just apply themselves randomly and it feels a bit unfair at times. I also suspect that the frustration of high score players is coming from it being harder to speed-run 15 runes by ninja'ing through these areas. I don't know exactly what to say about that.. stealth and ninja moves to win in low turn-count I guess is fun for some people (though it's never been my preferred style), but can be viewed as unbalanced as much as anything else. I'm mostly indifferent to the impact it has on fast-grab styles, but it probably will result in players used to doing that needing to learn and/or practice other builds and styles that use more direct confrontations. In that arena, anyone with the notion of TSO being a weak option just has some learning to do.

FInally, I'd like to comment that Dis still feels substantially harder than the other branches. I've also stumbled into some really bad trap levels. On one of them, I think I tried to use the stairs to escape out and it teleported me, which was confusing. There's a level with tons of of those Tzmitzles (sp?) and the mesmerizing effect, so basically after coming down the stairs, you can't walk away and you're potentially tormented a zillion times. In this case, I used a high powered ignition as the first response, and it still wasn't enough for a demonspawn of Kiku with 30% robust and well over 300hp. I think that trap level could be looked at, as it simply was a bit over the top (refer to comments about Torment in other thread).

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2022, 14:03

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

sanka wrote:That's fair to request that the target difficulty should be aimed to more average players, which I am one too (I only beat all four hells in 1 game).


I think this is an important question.

When you begin ( as a crawler) you might be happy to get your 1st 15-rune win with an easy combo in 100k.
Feels fantastic. (Felt fantastic for me)
Then you might realize that there are players who can do that in 50% of the turns and even consistently with less easy combos.

This was one of the things that kept me playing.
There is so much room to improve your skill even after winning.

Imo good players try to get it done now with less turns (or come up with self-imposed challendes to remain interested).
This means less xp, less consumables, less spells, less equipment.
Skill-based.

This is imo excellent design of the game.

When you target the difficulty at 'more average players': what does this mean ?

It could mean: easier monster, more items, etc.
It could also mean: After grinding for > 100k turns grabbing all items and developing lvl9-spells, there 'should' be some reward.
Finally an area where you can use all of these spells/items.
A 'challenge'.
Which is a joke.

To me the Hells (I have 12 15-rune-wins in 0.28 now, some of them are xyCA-hs) look like something which was designed for average players.
Players who hardly ever make it to extended and when they do they have excellent equipment.
For me it has turned the majority of the game into a grinding experience because right now I know that I should get every slaying if I want to melee in Dis.
Or get the spell which I think is needed now to get 'ready'.

I' won't talk about what happened to abyss.
I have never been grinding there.
Now I'm forced to grind Pan to get my stats back.
I don't know exactly what happened to abyss.
I have 12 runs through the new abyss now and spent a looooong time there in lvl4+5.
No rune vault.
At least not visible because most of the time I can hardly see anything but walls (is this changed ? Never had this happen before so often).
So it might be that a rune vault was on screen but not visible to me.

There are some changes in my play which I could think of.
To me I had a set of skills/items 'needed' (according to my skill) for a win. Whenever I realized I could do with less the whole game changed.
This has changed a lot with removing depth 5/XP. Also had a depth-lvl with hardly any monster which means less xp.

So I could just decide to skip most of the Dungeon/depths/Vaults/Lair branches and check what I 'need' to do Pand. earlier or zigging.
It is 1 strategy some players do. Get 1 big spell ready for zigg and get the rest there.
I don't like that.
Right now the most pointless experience is going into DIS with TSO with a broad axe :D
Tomb is switched to rune #5 or #6.
One of the most powerful items in the game (potion of attraction) has more or less trivialized tomb (and other vaults).

There are so many changes that I cannot help but think: do you (the developers) know what you're doing ?
I'm not talking about intentions.
When I want to see what is possible (or not) I switch to looking at the best players (Yermak is the most likely example).
I'll give an example (developd in my own but is apllied by others, too):
Potion of attraction may have looked like 'fun'.
But clustered in a big chunk close to you summoners cannot summon anything. They are also nothing more like cannon fodder if you apply immolation or Vane/acid wand/tin. Monster density leads to short time of refilling these evos. Which can be used AGAIN.
So you've added POWERFUL items for mass destruction combined with a clustering-item (attraction) which leads to trivializing whole areas.
The first time I killed all of elf 3 (former dangerous territory) with that combo I felt smart (most but not all layouts of elf 3 are optimal for this).
Now I feel cheated. Each of these items alone is..something. But combined it is offloading evos into content.
Same with Tomb. Without attraction most dangerous monsters would stay out of reach and fill the screen with summons while smiting/tormenting you. With attraction and the new improved potion of lign. Tomb has become so much easier.

It doesn't feel smart anymore but it feels like 12 year olds changed a game into something short-sighted which promised more 'fun' and more 'power' without thinking about consequences.
This sounds harsh and I know that 'm playing a game for free developed by dedicated programmers in their free time.
I'm grateful for this.
This is also the reason why I'm writing this.
Adding/Improving 1 item is one thing but combined with other items the effects on formerly well-designed areas can become devasting.
Reading what you (the devs) wrote what you want the game to be I cannot help but think: you don't play these areas very often ?
And you don't watch good players what they can do there ?
Which means you'll have not the kind of feed-back you need for what you want because average players won't know.
When you look back at 10 versions ago:
There were so many new dangerous monsters introduced since then.
Most of them fast, ranged attack or targeting (early) an uncommon resist to make the game 'harder'.
Was the game really that easy 10 versions ago ?
It wasn't.
To me it seems like you're handing out extremely powerful items AND adding powerful monster.
The net effect to me is a bit pointless. The game becomes more and more item-based.
Which is fine if you intended that but I don't think so.

So that's what I'll be doing: watching other players games.
Problem: there are not many 15 rune games to watch.
It's rather the opposite. Players used to watch my games when I played extended.

I'll stop playing DCSS and see what other players can come up with.
(I'm not interested in watching players auto-exploring Pan with turn-counts>90k applying lvl-9-spells.)

The breaking-point of my interest in the game was in Zot 5 in 0.27 (?) when I experienced 'You lose the ability to read scrolls when threatened'.
I have no idea what someone else thinks when I should feel threatened but I didn't. Until I had -scroll.
Then I gave up.
For the first time in DCSS I simply gave up.
Blurry vision was ok. -scroll is not.
The new improved Hell and the new improved Abyss where I read that the new improvement should disencourage grinding which I haven't done before leads to me playing a grinding game now.
Not my game anymore.
I'm not even able to play as concentrated as before which is a good sign for me that I should stop playing for a while.

Until better players than me can show me (I'll certainly watch Yermak who is one of the few who actually plays Extended with some certainity)

Disclaimer: I'm not an extreme low-turn-speed-runner ninjaing runes. Just high win%, streak, 1and1, hs. Had some house rules like: always 15 runes, never use necromutation.

Btw: I don't think scrolls of acq/shops/etc should be handed out that easily. To me it doesn't 'spice up' the game. Now I'm spoiled when I don't get anything. It seems just to lead to players bragging about their ITEMS. Which is the opposite of the game I thought I was playing.

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Joined: Monday, 15th April 2013, 15:10

Location: Augsburg, Germany

Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2022, 12:13

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Nebukadnezar wrote:Now I'm forced to grind Pan to get my stats back.
[...]
The new improved Hell and the new improved Abyss where I read that the new improvement should disencourage grinding which I haven't done before leads to me playing a grinding game now.

Not my game anymore.

I watched Nebukadnezar's char

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.28.0-43-g3370ac3207 (webtiles) character file.

Nebukadnezar the Englaciator (MfCA)               Turns: 102400, Time: 16:44:29

HP:   219/219 (240) AC: 27    Str: 24 (25) XL:     27
MP:   49/49         EV: 30    Int: 26      God:    Sif Muna [******]
Gold: 686           SH: 20    Dex: 20      Spells: 4/70 levels left

rFire   . . .      SeeInvis +   a - +9 demon trident (vamp)
rCold   + . .      Faith    .   K - +5 kite shield {rC+}
rNeg    + + +      Spirit   .   z - +4 faerie dragon scales {rCorr HP-5 Str+3 Clar}
rPois   +          Reflect  .   q - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec   +          Harm     .   Z - +2 cloak {Will+}
rCorr   +          Rampage  .   m - +0 pair of gloves of Spring Thaw {+Inv rN++ Str-5 SInv}
Will    ++...      Clarity  +   X - +2 pair of boots of the Invisible Hand {Str+2}
Stlth   +++++++++.              V - amulet of Xuapnei {+Blink Regen+ Dex+4}
HPRegen 1.26/turn               i - ring "Irruir" {rN+ Will+ Str+6}
MPRegen 0.31/turn               W - ring of Symmetry {rElec rPois Int+6 Dex+4 Slay-2}

@: studying 3 skills, drained, weak-willed
A: (nimble swimmer 2), mertail, iridescent scales 1, mutation resistance 1,
poison resistance
}: 13/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, obsidian, icy,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark
a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke Invisibility, Channel Magic, Forget
Spell, Divine Exegesis

You are on level 7 of Tartarus.

in Gehenna. Indeed, he lost many stat points (something like -1 str, -2 int and -6 dex) and - although he already had all pan runes - went back to pan just to get his stats back.

  Code:
94210 | Geh:1    | Entered Level 1 of Gehenna 
[...]
95695 | Geh:7    | Killed Asmodeus
95833 | Geh:7    | Got an obsidian rune of Zot
[...]
96023 | Pan      | Entered Pandemonium
[...]
97680 | Pan      | Took an exit into the Abyss.
[...]
97911 | Depths:2 | Escaped the Abyss
97966 | Hell     | // 2000 Turns to get into pan. Get stats back and through abyss back into hell. What an entirely funny grinding experience this 0.28 is

I don't want to play any more 0.28 games after I saw this.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Thursday, 3rd March 2022, 07:21

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

I don't have any experience with the new Hells, but it sounds like a lot of players find them unpleasant. I doubt I'd like them either.

Could I suggest taking inspiration from bcrawl?
Allow each of the 4 Hells to be entered once only, allowing re-entry only if you have obtained its rune.
(Of course the Hells would also be made easier, so that they can be completed in a single run. The constant draining could probably be removed, and perhaps other tweaks could be made too.)

A Hell which allows only one attempt to get the rune is inherently less grindy than the current design.
It should also make 15-rune runs more challenging, and make 14-, 13-, 12-, and 11-rune runs more common.

I only propose allowing re-entry when you've already got the rune to allow players to go back to get the loot. I could see an argument in favour of not allowing re-entry at all, making any loot which is left behind lost permanently, as it is in the Abyss and in Pan.

Note in bcrawl you can't exit a Hell branch without the rune, which means that if you can't get the rune you die. I think that allowing the player to (permanently) bail on a rune (as I proposed) is more pleasant. Especially for players who aren't 100% confident they can get the rune.

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
andrew

Dungeon Master

Posts: 250

Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Thursday, 3rd March 2022, 15:58

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Nebukadnezar wrote:There are so many changes that I cannot help but think: do you (the developers) know what you're doing ?

it feels like 12 year olds changed a game into something short-sighted which promised more 'fun' and more 'power' without thinking about consequences.

This sounds harsh and I know that 'm playing a game for free developed by dedicated programmers in their free time.
I'm grateful for this.


Gratitude is not normally expressed with insults. If you don't enjoy a change, that's fine, but being rude about it isn't appreciated.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1131

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Thursday, 3rd March 2022, 19:04

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

Nebukadnezar may have hard feelings about the development, but I do not think he wants to be rude. It is really challenging to express ones disappointment. especially when English is not ones first language. They also need to learn that opinion is much cheaper outside, when you do not need to work hard to make the game a reality.

I personally really like the development of the game, thank you. Also thanks for the awesome tournament and all. But I do not go to extended, because I do not like it. Looking at some recent games I would not like it with the recent developments either. (I am happy that Pan is shorter nowadays though.)

I personally would like to ask what is developers answer to the grinding problem I tried to express. I understand that this is not a "playtesting feedback", but I do not think it is "theorycrafting" that penalties that can be cleared by gaining XP may work well in the normal game, where you have no choice but to continue your game, but will not work well in extended while infinite XP is available in Pan. This is not merely a theory, this is a clear fact.

I understand that you would like more playtesting feedback, but it is too easy to generalise based on how one or two runs felt, which could had depended on many other factors, not just the new hell design. I think it is clear that "bailing out and grind" should never be a solution to a problem the game throws at you.

Perhaps simply make Pan finite? And do not allow grinding in the Abyss (I am not sure if this has been already done, sorry)? Disabling grinding would have big consequences for the extended game, though, as many players (not me) like to grind to beat a megazig.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Monday, 11th April 2022, 10:25

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

I'll sacrifice this character to the devs, by attempting to get some Hell runes with it

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.29-a0-323-g050149af67 (webtiles) character file.

petercordia the Hoplite (Demonspawn Monk)          Turns: 74851, Time: 04:18:01

Health: 225/225    AC: 34    Str: 23    XL:     25   Next: 9%
Magic:  35/35      EV: 30    Int: 21    God:    Okawaru [*****.]
Gold:   7516       SH: 39    Dex: 34    Spells: 20/41 levels left

rFire   + . .      SeeInvis +   a - +9 demon blade (flame)
rCold   + + +      Faith    +   E - +7 tower shield "Wikuduzus" {Rampage rN+ Str+3}
rNeg    + + .      Spirit   .   B - +6 acid dragon scales of the Thirsty Youths {rPois rN+ rCorr Int+3}
rPois   +          Reflect  .   X - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec   +          Harm     .   (cloak unavailable)
rCorr   +          Rampage  +   d - +2 pair of gloves of the Sky {rC+ rCorr}
Will    +++..                   L - +0 pair of boots of Greater Demons {*Corrode rPois Will+ Int+7}
Stlth   +++++++++.              p - amulet of faith
HPRegen 0.47/turn               r - ring "Tiolalineph" {Drain rElec rC++ Str+6 Dex+6, =R}
MPRegen 0.24/turn               s - ring of the Barracuda {rElec rF+ rC+ Stlth+}

@: studying 4 skills
A: icy blue scales 3, icemail 2, powered by pain 3, torment resistance 1,
condensation shield, demonic willpower, weakness stinger 3, thin skeletal
structure 1, robust 1, wild magic 1
}: 4/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver
a: Renounce Religion, Heroism, Finesse, Duel


You are in the Vestibule of Hell.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 50 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer, Bailey, Gauntlet, Ice Cave and Desolation.

You have collected 9675 gold pieces.
You have spent 2159 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +9 demon blade of flaming (weapon)
 b - a +5 quick blade
 u - a +2 vampiric dagger
 z - the +3 Elemental Staff {rElec rF++ rC++ AC+5}
   (You took it off a servant of whispers in the Desolation of Salt)   
   
   If the wielder is skilled in Evocations, they can discharge powerful blasts
   of elemental energy when striking with it.
   
   It enhances your fire, ice, earth and air magic.
   
   AC:        It affects your AC (+5).
   rF:        It greatly protects you from fire.
   rC:        It greatly protects you from cold.
   rElec:     It insulates you from electricity.
Missiles
 c - 30 curare-tipped darts
 g - 74 boomerangs (quivered)
 h - 13 silver boomerangs
 w - 10 throwing nets
 D - 21 poisoned darts
 H - 16 silver javelins
 M - 22 datura-tipped darts
 O - 14 boomerangs of dispersal
 R - 69 stones
 T - 27 atropa-tipped darts
 Z - 35 javelins
Armour
 d - the +2 pair of gloves of the Sky (worn) {rC+ rCorr}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you in a Gauntlet)   
   
   rC:        It protects you from cold.
   rCorr:     It protects you from acid and corrosion.
   
   If you remove this armour, your AC would decrease by 3 (34 -> 31).
 y - +2 fire dragon scales {Xtahua}
 B - the +6 acid dragon scales of the Thirsty Youths (worn) {rPois rN+ rCorr Int+3}
   (You took it off a vault sentinel on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   Int:       It affects your intelligence (+3).
   rPois:     It protects you from poison.
   rN:        It protects you from negative energy.
   rCorr:     It protects you from acid and corrosion.
   
   If you remove this armour, your AC would decrease by 14 (34 -> 20).
 E - the +7 tower shield "Wikuduzus" (worn) {Rampage rN+ Str+3}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)   
   
   Str:       It affects your strength (+3).
   rN:        It protects you from negative energy.
   Rampage:   It bestows one free step when moving towards enemies.
 L - the +0 pair of boots of Greater Demons (worn) {*Corrode rPois Will+ Int+7}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Depths)   
   
   Int:       It affects your intelligence (+7).
   rPois:     It protects you from poison.
   *Corrode:  It may corrode you when you take damage.
   Will:      It increases your willpower.
   
   If you remove this armour, your AC would decrease by 1 (34 -> 33).
 W - a +0 pair of boots of flying
 X - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
Jewellery
 k - the amulet "Obreset" {Faith Fragile rPois rC+ Str+2}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [amulet of faith]
   
   It allows you to gain divine favour quickly.
   Str:       It affects your strength (+2).
   rC:        It protects you from cold.
   rPois:     It protects you from poison.
   Fragile:   It will be destroyed if unequipped.
 p - an amulet of faith (around neck)
 r - the ring "Tiolalineph" (left hand) {Drain rElec rC++ Str+6 Dex+6, =R}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of dexterity]
   
   Str:       It affects your strength (+6).
   Dex:       It affects your dexterity (+6).
   rC:        It greatly protects you from cold.
   rElec:     It insulates you from electricity.
   Drain:     It drains your maximum health when unequipped.
 s - the ring of the Barracuda (right hand) {rElec rF+ rC+ Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   rF:        It protects you from fire.
   rC:        It protects you from cold.
   rElec:     It insulates you from electricity.
   Stlth:     It makes you more stealthy.
Wands
 l - a wand of paralysis (11)
 C - a wand of iceblast (45)
 K - a wand of acid (23)
 P - a wand of digging (10)
 Y - a wand of polymorph (9)
Scrolls
 i - 14 scrolls of fog
 o - 6 scrolls of magic mapping
 q - 17 scrolls of teleportation
 t - 6 scrolls of immolation
 I - 2 scrolls of fear
 N - 6 scrolls of vulnerability
 Q - 9 scrolls of blinking
 S - a scroll of silence
 U - a scroll of enchant armour
Potions
 e - 11 potions of haste
 f - 13 potions of might
 m - 24 potions of curing
 n - 6 potions of magic
 v - 4 potions of invisibility
 A - 2 potions of cancellation
 F - 9 potions of attraction
 G - 4 potions of ambrosia
 J - 20 potions of mutation
 V - 2 potions of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 j - a condenser vane
 x - a tin of tremorstones (2/2)


   Skills:
 + Level 18.3 Fighting
 - Level 11.0(14.0) Short Blades
 - Level 14.0(15.4) Long Blades
 * Level 14.1 Throwing
 + Level 8.8 Armour
 + Level 15.5 Dodging
 * Level 17.6 Stealth
 - Level 22.0 Shields
 * Level 8.6 Spellcasting
 * Level 9.1 Translocations
 + Level 15.1 Invocations


You have 20 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power      Damage    Failure   Level
a - Apportation           Tloc           100%       N/A       1%          1
b - Blink                 Tloc           100%       N/A       1%          2
c - Lesser Beckoning      Tloc           58%        N/A       2%          3
d - Dispersal             Tloc           29%        N/A       58%         6
m - Manifold Assault      Tloc           58%        N/A       14%         5
p - Passage of Golubria   Tloc           58%        N/A       6%          4

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power      Damage    Failure   Level
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           58%        N/A       2%          3
 Teleport Other           Tloc           58%        N/A       2%          3
 Portal Projectile        Hex/Tloc       72%        N/A       11%         3
 Magic Dart               Conj           44%        1d5       22%         1
 Pain                     Necr           44%        1d6       22%         1
 Sting                    Tmut/Pois      44%        1d5       22%         1
 Corpse Rot               Necr/Air       22%        N/A       32%         2
 Ensorcelled Hibernation  Hex/Ice        22%        N/A       32%         2
 Passwall                 Tmut/Erth      9%         N/A       32%         2
 Poisonous Vapours        Pois/Air       22%        N/A       32%         2
 Scorch                   Fire           22%        2d6       32%         2
 Static Discharge         Conj/Air       11%        N/A       32%         2
 Sublimation of Blood     Necr           11%        N/A       32%         2
 Wereblood                Tmut           11%        N/A       32%         2
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj/Tloc      36%        2d9       32%         4
 Confusing Touch          Hex            11%        N/A       52%         3
 Conjure Flame            Conj/Fire      11%        6-21      52%         3
 Dazzling Flash           Conj/Hex       22%        N/A       52%         3
 Frozen Ramparts          Ice            22%        1d4       52%         3
 Ignite Poison            Fire/Tmut/Pois 11%        N/A       52%         3
 Mephitic Cloud           Conj/Pois/Air  11%        N/A       52%         3
 Ozocubu's Armour         Ice            11%        N/A       52%         3
 Swiftness                Air            11%        N/A       52%         3
 Anguish                  Hex/Necr       5%         N/A       88%         4
 Dispel Undead            Necr           11%        3d9       88%         4
 Hailstorm                Conj/Ice       11%        3d5       88%         4
 Ice Form                 Ice/Tmut       11%        N/A       88%         4
 Leda's Liquefaction      Hex/Erth       5%         N/A       88%         4
 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance  Pois           11%        N/A       88%         4
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      11%        N/A       88%         4
 Sticky Flame             Conj/Fire      11%        2d3       88%         4
 Agony                    Necr           11%        N/A       99%         5
 Alistair's Intoxication  Tmut/Pois      7%         N/A       99%         5
 Blade Hands              Tmut           5%         N/A       99%         5
 Excruciating Wounds      Necr           5%         N/A       99%         5
 Freezing Cloud           Conj/Ice/Air   5%         6-21      99%         5
 Irradiate                Conj/Tmut      5%         3d15      99%         5
 Silence                  Hex/Air        5%         N/A       99%         5
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       5%         3d4       99%         5
 Conjure Ball Lightning   Conj/Air       5%         3x3d6     100%        6
 Eringya's Noxious Bog    Tmut/Pois      5%         N/A       100%        6
 Iron Shot                Conj/Erth      5%         9d2       100%        6
 Dragon Form              Tmut           5%         N/A       100%        7
 Enfeeble                 Hex            5%         N/A       100%        7
 Discord                  Hex            5%         N/A       100%        8
 Disjunction              Tloc           29%        N/A       100%        8
 Lehudib's Crystal Spear  Conj/Erth      5%         10d3      100%        8
 Chain Lightning          Conj/Air       5%         3d7       100%        9
 Death's Door             Necr           5%         N/A       100%        9
 Fire Storm               Conj/Fire      5%         8d2       100%        9
 Polar Vortex             Ice            5%         N/A       100%        9
 Animate Skeleton         Necr           Unusable   N/A       N/A         1
 Summon Small Mammal      Summ           Unusable   N/A       N/A         1
 Call Imp                 Summ           Unusable   N/A       N/A         2
 Call Canine Familiar     Summ           Unusable   N/A       N/A         3
 Tukima's Dance           Hex            Unusable   N/A       N/A         3
 Summon Forest            Summ/Tloc      Unusable   N/A       N/A         5
 Animate Armour           Summ/Erth      Unusable   N/A       N/A         4
 Animate Dead             Necr           Unusable   N/A       N/A         4
 Summon Ice Beast         Ice/Summ       Unusable   N/A       N/A         4
 Simulacrum               Ice/Necr       Unusable   N/A       N/A         6
 Summon Hydra             Summ           Unusable   N/A       N/A         7
 Infestation              Necr           Unusable   N/A       N/A         8


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:2        Snake (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (5/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2     Depths (4/4) D:15           Hell (1/1)
    Dis (0/7) Hell            Geh (0/7) Hell            Coc (0/7) Hell
    Tar (0/7) Hell            Zot (0/5) Depths:4      Sewer (visited)
 Bailey (visited)           IceCv (visited)         Desolation (visited)
Gauntlet (visited)       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:5 *   D:10 [   D:14 *   Orc:2 =(=?   Shoals:3 =   Snake:3 =   Depths:2 *([
Depths:3 (*   Depths:4 :

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4
Abyss: Depths:1 Depths:3 Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:2
Ziggurat: Depths:1
Trove: Depths:4 (give 18 scrolls of teleportation)

Annotations:
D:14 dig for nothing?
Vaults:1 2 transporters - distortion ghost, Geciec's ghost, veteran BaAK


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are completely covered in icy blue scales. (AC +4, rC+)
A meltable icy envelope protects you from harm. (AC +8)
You are powered by pain.
You are resistant to unholy torment.
A meltable shield of frost defends you. (SH +4)
You punish those that try to bend your will. (Will+)
You have a sharp stinger which inflicts weakening toxins.
You have a somewhat thin skeletal structure. (Dex +2, Stealth+)
You are robust. (+10% HP)
Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.

Message History

Unknown command.
Casting: Manifold Assault (mildly dangerous; 14% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Space momentarily warps into an impossible shape!
You slice the ice statue!! You melt the ice statue!
Unknown command.
Casting: Manifold Assault (mildly dangerous; 14% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Space momentarily warps into an impossible shape!
You hit the ice statue. You melt the ice statue.
Unknown command.
Casting: Manifold Assault (mildly dangerous; 14% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Space momentarily warps into an impossible shape!
You slash the ice statue! You melt the ice statue.
You destroy the ice statue!
Okawaru accepts your kill.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
You cannot move.
You cannot move.
You start resting.
You are no longer locked in place.
You start resting.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Found a gateway to the freezing wastes of Cocytus.
No target in view!
Found a gateway to the Iron City of Dis.
Done exploring.
Done exploring.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Search for what [Enter for "hell", or ? for help]? Sinv
As you read the scroll of enchant armour, it crumbles to dust.
Your +0 helmet of see invisible glows green for a moment.
As you read the scroll of enchant armour, it crumbles to dust.
Your +1 helmet of see invisible glows green for a moment.
Search for what [Enter for "Sinv", or ? for help]? .
Unknown command.

..................###.###........
..................#.#.#.#........
....................#'#..........
....................#.#..........
.................................
.............................))..
.§§.§................∩...........
≈§.§§.≈..........................
≈≈§§§≈≈§§.......@.)).............
≈#####§≈.................).......
##...##≈≈§..........).)).........
#.....##Ť.........).............
.......#..§...........∩..........
...∩...'.≈....∩.............∩....
.......#§........................
#.....##≈≈.......................
##...##≈≈≈.......................


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  the Royal Jelly (Slime:5)
  An ancient lich (Vaults:5)
  2 juggernauts (Depths:2)
  Sojobo (Vaults:4)
  Boris (Depths:4)
  Parghit (Depths:4)
  Margery (Depths:3)
  Saint Roka (Vaults:4)
  Xtahua (Vaults:5)
  Bai Suzhen (Vaults:5)
  Geryon (Arena)
  Jory (Vaults:2)
  A golden dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  A caustic shrike (Arena)
  4 golden dragons
  3 liches (Depths:2)
  5 tentacled monstrosities
  Rupert (Snake:1)
  2 deep elf blademasters
  A walking crystal tome (Depths:2)
  5 titans
  Asterion (Elf:1)
  3 deep elf master archers
  Polyphemus (Shoals:2)
  2 quicksilver dragons
  4 sphinxes
  15 acid blobs
  A sphinx (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  5 storm dragons (Vaults:5)
  7 shadow dragons
  A kraken (Shoals:1)
  10 tengu reavers
  10 nagarajas
  Kirke (D:15)
  4 rockslimes (Slime:4)
  5 azure jellies
  A fenstrider witch (shapeshifter) (Depths:4)
  11 fire giants
  4 frost giants
  5 deep elf sorcerers
  14 vault wardens
  Aizul (Shoals:1)
  An imperial myrmidon (Desolation)
  2 deep elf elementalists (Elf:3)
  A ghoul (Vaults:2)
  2 draconian stormcallers (Depths:4)
  7 reapers (Hell)
  10 quicksilver oozes
  13 ironbound preservers
  A spriggan defender (Depths:2)
  5 ironbound thunderhulks
  4 war gargoyles
  18 very ugly things
  13 stone giants
  A green draconian (Depths:4)
  The ghost of Gacs the Peltast, a journeyman FoFi of Hepliaklqana (Lair:5)
  5 vampire knights
  4 entropy weavers
  6 deep elf demonologists
  6 spark wasps
  9 deep elf annihilators
  A minotaur (Gauntlet)
  2 red draconians (Depths:4)
  A yellow draconian (Depths:4)
  16 dire elephants
  2 black draconians (Depths:4)
  3 halazid warlocks
  3 iron golems
  A white draconian (Depths:4)
  2 blizzard demons
  9 ettins
  2 merfolk javelineers
  8 deep elf death magi
  6 fire dragons
  15 yaktaur captains
  3 crystal guardians
  5 great orbs of eyes
  6 deep elf high priests
  8 ragged hierophants (Desolation)
  16 merfolk impalers
  3 rakshasas
  9 naga warriors
  A hell beast (Hell)
  9 ice dragons
  28 vault guards
  3 boulder beetles
  11 peacekeepers (Desolation)
  6 hydras
  5 merfolk avatars
  5 servants of whispers (Desolation)
  4 ogre magi
  4 ironbound frosthearts
  25 centaur warriors
  9 two-headed ogres
  2 catoblepae
  Erica (D:10)
  2 spriggan air magi (Depths:3)
  3 alligator snapping turtles
  9 anacondas
  A death knight (D:15)
  A vampire mage (Vaults:2)
  26 death yaks
  23 dancing weapons
  5 deep troll earth magi
  6 hell hogs
  5 tengu warriors
  5 merfolk aquamancers
  A satyr (Shoals:3)
  8 deep troll shamans
  23 naga sharpshooters
  3 spriggan berserkers
  3 crystal echidnas
  7 sun demons
  6 shock serpents
  6 soul eaters
  Sonja (Lair:3)
  Urug (Lair:5)
  24 hell knights
  Nergalle (Arena)
  6 iron trolls
  12 deep elf knights
  2 salamander mystics (Snake:4)
  A spectral death yak (Lair:1)
  3 skeletal warriors
  Amaemon (D:9)
  14 sea snakes
  3 shadow wraiths
  2 flayed ghosts
  11 naga ritualists
  41 deep trolls
  3 glowing orange brains
  The ghost of Viceroy the Impaler, a novice MfGl (Lair:1)
  16 ironbound convokers
  16 deep elf archers
  A spectral hydra (Lair:1)
  7 wizards
  An orange crystal statue (Elf:2)
  An anaconda zombie (Hell)
  A swamp dragon (Lair:6)
  9 necromancers
  5 orc knights
  2 anaconda skeletons (Hell)
  17 deep elf zephyrmancers
  20 harpies
  A wolf spider (Vaults:5)
  11 lindwurms
  11 orc sorcerers
  16 mana vipers
  14 phantasmal warriors
  39 ugly things
  23 fauns
  2 frost giant zombies (Vaults:2)
  20 deep elf pyromancers
  18 manticores
  2 cyclopes
  4 large abominations (Elf:1)
  5 shining eyes
  8 salamanders
  2 tengu skeletons
  Joseph (D:10)
  16 vault sentinels
  49 black mambas
  A frost giant skeleton (Vaults:3)
  3 guardian serpents (Snake:4)
  21 elephants
  16 cane toads
  4 water nymphs
  23 naga magi
  9 centaur zombies (D:11)
  Maurice (D:10)
  4 ice statues
  12 merfolk sirens
  3 gargoyles (D:12)
  An orange demon (D:9)
  A yaktaur zombie (Vaults:1)
  An eye of devastation (Slime:5)
  3 smoke demons
  A molten gargoyle (Desolation)
  6 torpor snails
  A sea snake zombie (Hell)
  2 human zombies
  8 centaur skeletons
  6 freezing wraiths
  52 yaktaurs
  2 rime drakes (Lair:6)
  An efreet (D:15)
  8 komodo dragons
  A komodo dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  3 tengu conjurers
  3 harpy zombies (Shoals:2)
  A golden dragon simulacrum (Vaults:2)
  41 merfolk
  2 ice devils
  2 hydra zombies (Hell)
  3 tyrant leeches (Lair:6)
  16 hornets
  5 trolls
  Grinder (D:3)
  The ghost of void236 the Digger, an amateur DrEE (D:6)
  5 polar bears
  8 wind drakes
  50 saltlings (Desolation)
  57 blink frogs
  The ghost of Olga the Carver, an amateur MfGl (D:3)
  A hydra skeleton (Hell)
  2 meliai zombies (D:11)
  10 dream sheep
  48 slime creatures
  A spectral black mamba (Lair:1)
  An ettin skeleton (Vaults:1)
  4 flying skulls (D:11)
  A jumping spider (Vaults:4)
  12 snapping turtles
  A culicivora (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  11 shadows
  3 centaur simulacra (Gauntlet)
  5 air elementals
  8 wraiths
  3 wyverns
  4 spriggans
  28 water elementals
  4 elf zombies
  38 yaks
  4 basilisks
  A yak (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  4 fire elementals
  2 golden eyes (Slime:3)
  Grum (D:9)
  3 vampire mosquitoes (D:12)
  3 steam dragons
  4 humans (D:15)
  3 redbacks
  2 harpy simulacra
  47 nagas
  A spectral cane toad (Lair:1)
  3 wargs
  3 acid dragons
  2 hydra simulacra
  15 water moccasins
  2 manticore zombies (Shoals:2)
  3 hell hounds (Depths:4)
  A swamp drake (Lair:6)
  A black bear (D:6)
  31 orc warriors
  A sky beast (D:8)
  An alligator simulacrum (Hell)
  12 centaurs
  8 ogres
  18 wolves
  A boggart (Vaults:3)
  2 phantoms (D:7)
  17 bullfrogs
  4 kobold brigands
  2 necrophages
  2 cane toad simulacra
  5 earth elementals
  A human skeleton (Vaults:2)
  3 scorpions
  A glowing shapeshifter simulacrum (Vaults:3)
  4 wights
  An elephant simulacrum (IceCv)
  A dream sheep simulacrum (Lair:1)
  11 killer bees
  3 jellies
  3 howler monkeys
  2 electric eels (D:13)
  13 orc priests
  2 gnoll shamans
  4 hounds
  6 iguanas
  39 orc wizards
  7 hell rats (Depths:4)
  A howler monkey zombie (D:11)
  12 gnolls
  9 adders
  2 river rats (D:4)
  3 shadow imps
  6 white imps
  2 ufetubi
  A worm (D:4)
  4 dart slugs
  100 orcs
  7 endoplasms
  4 giant cockroaches
  14 goblins
  4 hobgoblins
  28 kobolds
  4 quokkas
  9 ball pythons
  7 bats
  5 frilled lizards
  7 rats
  A creeping inferno (Hell)
  4 fire vortices (Hell)
2212 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  The ghost of Thargor the Thaumaturge, a journeyman GnCj of Ashenzari (Shoals:1)
  An ice dragon (Depths:4)
  A hell knight (Depths:3)
  A deep elf pyromancer (Elf:3)
  2 orc wizards (Orc:2)
  An orc (D:10)
  3 bushes
  16 fungi
  225 plants
  2 withered plants (D:3)
253 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2465 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | petercordia the Demonspawn Monk began the quest for the
                  | Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 18/18 MP: 1/1
   348 | D:1      | Gained mutation: A meltable shield of frost defends you.
                  | (SH +4) [demonic ancestry]
   348 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/24 MP: 2/2
  1155 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 29/29 MP: 3/3
  2137 | D:2      | Gained mutation: You have a small tail. [demonic ancestry]
  2137 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 35/35 MP: 4/4
  2311 | D:2      | Found a faded altar of an unknown god.
  2653 | D:3      | Noticed Grinder
  2657 | D:3      | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns
  2780 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You have a tail ending in a sharp stinger.
                  | [demonic ancestry]
  2780 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 24/41 MP: 5/5
  2842 | D:4      | Found a glowing drain.
  2863 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  2888 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  3075 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 6. HP: 18/48 MP: 6/6
  3345 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 2 in Shields
  3767 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3782 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3920 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  3920 | Temple   | Reached * piety under Okawaru
  3920 | Temple   | Reached ** piety under Okawaru
  4120 | D:3      | Found a runed translucent door.
  4121 | D:3      | Noticed Olga's ghost (amateur MfGl)
  4285 | D:3      | Killed Grinder
  4286 | D:3      | Reached skill level 3 in Shields
  4286 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  4286 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You have a sharp stinger which inflicts
                  | weakening toxins. [demonic ancestry]
  4286 | D:3      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 27/54 MP: 4/8
  4677 | D:3      | Killed Olga's ghost
  4677 | D:3      | Reached *** piety under Okawaru
  4932 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Shields
  5405 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5413 | D:5      | Found Orocuoze's Assorted Antiques.
  5423 | D:5      | Bought a fizzy ruby potion for 19 gold pieces
  5423 | D:5      | Bought a crooked wooden wand for 88 gold pieces
  5485 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in icy blue
                  | scales. (AC +2) [demonic ancestry]
  5485 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 30/61 MP: 8/10
  6407 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
  6644 | D:6      | Found a large runed translucent door.
  6644 | D:6      | Found a large runed translucent door.
  6646 | D:6      | Noticed void236's ghost (amateur DrEE)
  6921 | D:6      | HP: 3/61 [poisoned by a water moccasin]
  6923 | D:6      | HP: 1/61 [poisoned by a water moccasin]
  7300 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  7300 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  7300 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
  8286 | D:6      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  8286 | D:6      | Noticed a green death
  8461 | D:6      | Killed void236's ghost
  8462 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 30/65 MP: 12/12
  9008 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  9301 | D:7      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
  9539 | D:7      | Reached **** piety under Okawaru
  9835 | D:8      | Found a flagged portal.
  9846 | Bailey   | Entered a bailey
 10011 | Bailey   | Reached skill level 6 in Shields
 10394 | Bailey   | Identified the ring "Joupred" {Ice rN+}
 10398 | Bailey   | Noticed an orc knight
 10398 | Bailey   | Noticed an orc knight
 10404 | Bailey   | Killed an orc knight
 10404 | Bailey   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 10404 | Bailey   | Killed an orc knight
 10405 | Bailey   | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 10405 | Bailey   | Gained mutation: A meltable icy envelope protects you from
                  | harm. (AC +8) [demonic ancestry]
 10405 | Bailey   | Reached XP level 10. HP: 33/76 MP: 7/14
 10608 | Bailey   | Reached skill level 7 in Shields
 10608 | Bailey   | Gained mutation: You sometimes gain a little power by
                  | taking damage. [demonic ancestry]
 10608 | Bailey   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 84/84 MP: 14/17
 10805 | D:8      | Received a gift from Okawaru
 11615 | D:9      | Noticed Grum
 11618 | D:9      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
 11619 | D:9      | Noticed Amaemon
 11970 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 12197 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 12202 | D:9      | Found a shimmering blue altar of Sif Muna.
 12277 | D:9      | Killed Grum
 12296 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 12298 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 12324 | D:9      | Killed Amaemon
 12325 | D:9      | Reached skill level 8 in Shields
 12723 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 12725 | D:10     | Got Bukeytid's Collected Works on Dislocation
 12762 | D:10     | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 12831 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 12834 | D:10     | Found Omyusuugi's Armour Emporium.
 12837 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 12851 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre
 12852 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Invocations
 12852 | D:10     | Noticed Maurice
 12867 | D:10     | Reached ***** piety under Okawaru
 12899 | D:10     | Killed Maurice
 13320 | D:10     | Noticed Joseph
 13322 | D:10     | Paralysed by a hornet for 1 turns
 13328 | D:10     | Paralysed by a hornet for 1 turns
 13334 | D:10     | Noticed Erica
 13401 | D:10     | Killed Joseph
 13402 | D:10     | Gained mutation: You sometimes gain power by taking damage.
                  | [demonic ancestry]
 13402 | D:10     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 35/92 MP: 15/19
 13439 | D:10     | Killed Erica
 14243 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 14719 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14720 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14720 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14723 | Lair:1   | Noticed Viceroy's ghost (novice MfGl)
 14774 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades
 14853 | Lair:1   | Identified the +9 great sword "Ihasmifu" {elec, Str+3 SInv}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 14853 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 15128 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 9 in Shields
 15996 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 16147 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 88/99 MP: 20/20
 16368 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 16661 | Lair:3   | Found a frozen archway.
 16674 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 16696 | IceCv    | Found a transporter.
 16711 | IceCv    | Found a transporter.
 16721 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 16759 | IceCv    | Identified the +9 scimitar of the Thoughtful Demons
                  | {antimagic, rPois rN+ Int-4 Dex+6 SInv}
 17436 | Lair:3   | Noticed Nergalle
 17437 | Lair:3   | Noticed Sonja
 17444 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 17458 | Arena    | Killed Nergalle
 17493 | Lair:3   | Killed Sonja
 17838 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 18625 | Lair:4   | You fall into a shaft and drop 1 floor!
 18959 | Lair:5   | Noticed Urug
 18986 | Lair:5   | Killed Urug
 19218 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 84/108 MP: 6/22
 19342 | Lair:5   | Found a transporter.
 19346 | Lair:5   | Found a transporter.
 19346 | Lair:5   | Noticed Gacs's ghost (journeyman FoFi)
 19350 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 19999 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20012 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 20471 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 20798 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20939 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 21097 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 11 in Shields
 21492 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 21597 | Lair:5   | Identified the +2 ring mail "Kantasir" {rPois Slay+2}
 21925 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 22919 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 23070 | Lair:6   | Found a runed translucent door.
 23078 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 15. HP: 113/117 MP: 7/23
 23680 | Lair:5   | Killed Gacs's ghost
 23784 | Lair:1   | Killed Viceroy's ghost
 23950 | D:11     | Identified the +1 scale mail "Nazatucw" {Will+} (Okawaru
                  | gifted it to you on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 23950 | D:11     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 24247 | D:11     | Reached skill level 12 in Shields
 25221 | D:12     | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 25572 | D:12     | Identified the +3 dagger "Gyitex" {antimagic, rElec rF+
                  | Will- Str+2}
 25908 | D:12     | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
 26024 | D:13     | Reached ****** piety under Okawaru
 26031 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 26070 | D:13     | Identified the +0 scimitar of the Original Sin {flame, rF+
                  | rN+ Str-2} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 13 of the
                  | Dungeon)
 26070 | D:13     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 26721 | D:13     | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 27496 | D:14     | Found Pesenuuj's Neck Hole.
 27514 | D:14     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 117/127 MP: 8/25
 27584 | D:14     | Found a gate leading to a gauntlet.
 27602 | Gauntlet | Entered a Gauntlet
 27602 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27602 | Gauntlet | Found a runed translucent door.
 27615 | Gauntlet | Found a runed translucent door.
 27619 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27623 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27631 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27635 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27643 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27647 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27655 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27659 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27667 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27688 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27700 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27713 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27726 | Gauntlet | Found a transporter.
 27760 | Gauntlet | Identified the +2 pair of gloves of the Sky {rC+ rCorr}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you in a Gauntlet)
 27760 | Gauntlet | Received a gift from Okawaru
 27761 | Gauntlet | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 27781 | Gauntlet | Identified the amulet "Rifosy" {Spirit Stlth+}
 27835 | Gauntlet | Reached skill level 13 in Shields
 27985 | Gauntlet | Identified the +0 ring mail of Uvvam {rC- rN+ Dex+3}
 28900 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 28951 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 29619 | D:15     | Noticed Kirke
 29630 | D:15     | Killed Kirke
 30165 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 30397 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 30621 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 30628 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 2 turns
 31021 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 31316 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 31326 | Orc:2    | Found Qumor's Magic Scroll Emporium.
 31390 | Orc:2    | Found Lacy's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 31475 | Orc:2    | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 31489 | Orc:2    | Found Qobitoz's Jewellery Shoppe.
 31524 | Orc:2    | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
 31747 | Orc:2    | Found Coamih's Jewellery Emporium.
 31771 | Orc:2    | Bought an amulet of faith for 400 gold pieces
 31970 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 32738 | Snake:1  | Noticed Rupert
 33294 | Snake:1  | Killed Rupert
 33676 | Snake:2  | Gained mutation: You are mostly covered in icy blue scales.
                  | (AC +3) [demonic ancestry]
 33676 | Snake:2  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 136/136 MP: 8/26
 33899 | Snake:2  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 33900 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 14 in Shields
 34934 | Snake:3  | Found Silev's Jewellery Shop.
 36018 | Snake:3  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 36079 | Snake:3  | Reached skill level 5 in Throwing
 36341 | Snake:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit
 36361 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 36881 | Snake:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 37530 | Snake:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 37569 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 16 in Shields
 37574 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You are powered by pain. [demonic
                  | ancestry]
 37574 | Snake:4  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 113/144 MP: 9/27
 37853 | Snake:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 38343 | Snake:4  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 38595 | Snake:3  | Bought the ring "Tebuf" {rC+ rCorr EV+4} for 556 gold
                  | pieces
 38873 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 39217 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 17 in Shields
 40308 | Vaults:1 | Noticed a golden dragon
 40319 | Vaults:1 | Noticed Geciec's ghost (veteran BaAK)
 40320 | Vaults:1 | Found a transporter.
 40324 | Vaults:1 | Found a transporter.
 40587 | Vaults:1 | Identified the +1 ring mail "Duthruudgh" {-Tele rPois Will-
                  | Str+5} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 1 of the Vaults)
 40587 | Vaults:1 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 41932 | Vaults:2 | Identified the +0 ring mail of Cemaez {Dex+4 SInv} (Okawaru
                  | gifted it to you on level 2 of the Vaults)
 41932 | Vaults:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 41945 | Vaults:2 | Gained mutation: A meltable icy envelope protects you from
                  | harm. (AC +8) [demonic ancestry]
 41945 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 143/153 MP: 9/28
 42282 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 42460 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 18 in Shields
 43823 | Vaults:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 44168 | Vaults:3 | Found a transporter.
 44169 | Vaults:3 | Found a shimmering blue altar of Sif Muna.
 44218 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Jory
 44304 | Vaults:2 | Killed Jory
 44508 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 44947 | Vaults:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 45866 | Vaults:3 | Got the Incunabulum of Congealing Moulding
 45898 | Vaults:3 | Found a transporter.
 46032 | Vaults:4 | Found a crumbling gateway.
 46050 | Desolati | Entered the Desolation of Salt
 46057 | Desolati | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
 46107 | Desolati | Reached skill level 19 in Shields
 46155 | Desolati | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
 46172 | Desolati | Reached XP level 20. HP: 152/162 MP: 8/29
 46339 | Desolati | Received a gift from Okawaru
 46343 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 46516 | Desolati | Identified the amulet "Punliof" {Spirit rPois Str+4 Dex+3
                  | Slay-4}
 46535 | Desolati | Identified the +1 ring mail of the Bulwark {rPois rF-
                  | Stlth+}
 46748 | Desolati | Got the Catalogue of Transmigration
 46755 | Desolati | Identified the +3 morningstar of Wounding {flame, Str+4}
 46826 | Desolati | Received a gift from Okawaru
 46932 | Desolati | Identified the +1 swamp dragon scales of Whack-A-Mole
                  | {rElec rPois rN+}
 46942 | Desolati | Identified the ring of Untruth {MP+9 Str+2}
 46947 | Desolati | Identified the +2 cloak "Cearumis" {Str+4}
 46961 | Desolati | Identified the +4 trident of the Dragonfly {freeze, rN+}
 47060 | Desolati | Identified the +0 chain mail of Bosiz {Str+7 Dex+4 Stlth-}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you in the Desolation of Salt)
 47060 | Desolati | Received a gift from Okawaru
 47604 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Saint Roka
 47649 | Vaults:4 | Killed Saint Roka
 48082 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
 48382 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Sojobo
 49413 | Vaults:4 | Identified the +7 tower shield "Wikuduzus" {Rampage rN+
                  | Str+3} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)
 49413 | Vaults:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 49850 | Vaults:4 | Killed Sojobo
 49880 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 49910 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Throwing
 50136 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 50229 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gateway to a ziggurat.
 50461 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 20 in Shields
 50476 | Depths:1 | Gained mutation: You punish those that try to bend your
                  | will. (Will+) [demonic ancestry]
 50476 | Depths:1 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 105/170 MP: 10/31
 50531 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 50713 | Depths:1 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 50765 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell.
 50812 | Depths:1 | Found a magical portal.
 50822 | Depths:1 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 51531 | Depths:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 51680 | Depths:2 | Found a shimmering blue altar of Sif Muna.
 51739 | Depths:2 | You are sucked into a shaft and drop 1 floor!
 51823 | Depths:3 | Found Mioneshe's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 52250 | Depths:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 52468 | Depths:2 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 52869 | Depths:2 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 52872 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 52885 | Arena    | Killed a caustic shrike
 53219 | Depths:2 | Found Teusin's General Store.
 53221 | Depths:2 | Found Maxol's Antique Weapon Shop.
 53223 | Depths:2 | Found Lirusau's Antique Armour Boutique.
 53228 | Depths:2 | Bought a scroll of acquirement for 676 gold pieces
 53228 | Depths:2 | Acquired 951 gold pieces
 53247 | Depths:2 | Bought a pair of bloodstained boots for 218 gold pieces
 53247 | Depths:2 | Identified the +0 pair of boots of Greater Demons {*Corrode
                  | rPois Will+ Int+7} (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of
                  | the Depths)
 54098 | Depths:2 | Identified the +1 robe "Put-Me-On" {Drain rElec rN+ Will++}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Depths)
 54098 | Depths:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 54112 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
 54449 | Depths:2 | Noticed a juggernaut
 54468 | Depths:2 | Killed a juggernaut
 54548 | Depths:2 | Noticed a juggernaut
 54560 | Depths:2 | Killed a juggernaut
 55145 | Depths:3 | Found Kyampyok's Fire Supplies.
 55444 | Depths:3 | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
 55946 | Depths:3 | Gained mutation: You are completely covered in icy blue
                  | scales. (AC +4, rC+) [demonic ancestry]
 55946 | Depths:3 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 109/178 MP: 33/33
 56715 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 56735 | Slime:2  | Reached skill level 15 in Invocations
 56774 | Slime:3  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 56980 | Slime:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 57242 | Slime:4  | Learned a level 3 spell: Lesser Beckoning
 57247 | Slime:4  | Learned a level 4 spell: Passage of Golubria
 57253 | Slime:4  | Learned a level 5 spell: Manifold Assault
 57254 | Slime:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Pits of Slime
 57271 | Slime:5  | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 57281 | Slime:5  | Gained mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely
                  | shaped body. [a shining eye]
 57366 | Slime:5  | Noticed the Royal Jelly
 57376 | Slime:5  | Killed the Royal Jelly
 57376 | Slime:5  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 58588 | Slime:5  | Identified the +10 hand crossbow of Abuse {freeze, Will+
                  | MP+9 Int+3}
 58602 | Slime:5  | Found the +3 robe of Clouds {*Thunder rCloud rElec}
 58621 | Slime:5  | Got a slimy rune of Zot
 58622 | Slime:5  | Identified the amulet "Obreset" {Faith Fragile rPois rC+
                  | Str+2}
 58640 | Slime:5  | Identified the ring "Tiolalineph" {Drain rElec rC++ Str+6
                  | Dex+6}
 58655 | Slime:5  | Identified the ring "Vutzoyr" {rElec rPois rC- Will+ Int+4}
 58681 | Slime:5  | Acquired 747 gold pieces
 58696 | Slime:5  | Got Ifeig's Catalogue of Confrontation and Creation
 58708 | Slime:5  | Identified the ring of the Barracuda {rElec rF+ rC+ Stlth+}
 59026 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 59387 | Elf:1    | Noticed Asterion
 59398 | Elf:1    | Killed Asterion
 59663 | Elf:1    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 59776 | Elf:1    | Got the Tome of Unholy Arts
 59867 | Elf:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades
 60310 | Elf:2    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 60414 | Elf:2    | Found a runed translucent gate.
 60414 | Elf:2    | Found a runed translucent gate.
 60489 | Elf:2    | Identified the +4 ring mail of Daisies {-Tele Will- rCorr
                  | Int+5} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Elven
                  | Halls)
 60489 | Elf:2    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 60546 | Elf:2    | Reached skill level 21 in Shields
 60763 | Elf:2    | Found a runed translucent gate.
 60916 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
 61889 | Elf:3    | Identified the +2 scale mail of the Rescuing Gods {Will++
                  | Str+2}
 62440 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 62482 | Elf:3    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 62763 | Elf:3    | Reached XP level 23. HP: 151/186 MP: 34/34
 62936 | Elf:3    | Found the +10 morningstar "Eos" {elec, Halo rElec}
 62955 | Elf:3    | Found the +4 robe of Folly {Brilliance Will-∞ Int+8}
 62956 | Elf:3    | Identified the +5 falchion "Bidaam" {vamp, *Corrode rC+
                  | SInv}
 62962 | Elf:3    | Lost mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped
                  | body. [potion of mutation]
 62962 | Elf:3    | Gained mutation: Your spells are a little harder to cast,
                  | but a little more powerful. [potion of mutation]
 62962 | Elf:3    | Gained mutation: You are robust. (+10% HP) [potion of
                  | mutation]
 62962 | Elf:3    | Gained mutation: You have a somewhat thin skeletal
                  | structure. (Dex +2, Stealth+) [potion of mutation]
 63013 | Elf:3    | Identified the ring of Zeug Xetepp {Contam rPois Int-2
                  | Dex+6 Stlth+}
 63016 | Elf:3    | Identified the +1 ring mail of Going Fast {Str+3 Int+5}
 63020 | Elf:3    | Got the Catalogue of the Volcanoes
 63047 | Elf:3    | Identified the +6 short sword "Yletuakh" {vorpal, rC+
                  | Str+2}
 63050 | Elf:3    | Identified the +11 hand axe of the Shrieking God {vorpal,
                  | rC+ Str+3 Dex-5 Stlth+}
 63053 | Elf:3    | Got the Tome of Dislocation and Venom
 63136 | Elf:3    | Identified the +11 flail "Ichyubej" {freeze, rPois Int+2}
 63633 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 63645 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 63673 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 63674 | Vaults:5 | Noticed Bai Suzhen
 63703 | Vaults:5 | Killed Bai Suzhen
 63703 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 63741 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 63984 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 64194 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 64229 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +6 acid dragon scales of the Thirsty Youths
                  | {rPois rN+ rCorr Int+3}
 64292 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +0 hat "Xoterisk" {Contam rCorr Dex+2 SInv}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 5 of the Vaults)
 64292 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 64408 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +6 bardiche of the Hurling Gods {vorpal,
                  | Contam rC+++ rCorr}
 64864 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +1 troll leather armour "Lolinaot" {Regen+
                  | Str+3}
 65047 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Stealth
 65255 | Vaults:5 | Noticed Xtahua
 65275 | Vaults:5 | Killed Xtahua
 65884 | Vaults:5 | Got the Guide on Transformation
 66108 | Vaults:5 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 66501 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 66703 | Shoals:1 | Noticed Aizul
 66725 | Shoals:1 | Killed Aizul
 66933 | Shoals:1 | Found a large runed translucent door.
 66933 | Shoals:1 | Found a large runed translucent door.
 66935 | Shoals:1 | Noticed Thargor's ghost (journeyman GnCj)
 66988 | Shoals:1 | Killed Thargor's ghost
 67422 | Shoals:2 | Gained mutation: You are resistant to unholy torment.
                  | [demonic ancestry]
 67422 | Shoals:2 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 214/214 MP: 34/34
 67792 | Shoals:2 | Noticed Polyphemus
 67830 | Shoals:2 | Killed Polyphemus
 67941 | Shoals:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 68467 | Shoals:3 | Reached skill level 22 in Shields
 68470 | Shoals:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 68539 | Shoals:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 68905 | Shoals:3 | Found Imyiho's Jewellery Emporium.
 69306 | Shoals:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Shoals
 69394 | Shoals:4 | Got the Volume of Glacial Evil
 69529 | Shoals:4 | Identified the ring "Max Moco" {rElec rN++ Str+6 Int-2
                  | Slay+5}
 69688 | Shoals:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 69724 | Shoals:4 | Identified the +1 chain mail "Lepobb" {Will+ rCorr}
                  | (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Shoals)
 69724 | Shoals:4 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 69754 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 69779 | Shoals:4 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 70669 | Depths:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Depths
 70669 | Depths:4 | Noticed Margery
 70686 | Depths:3 | Killed Margery
 70765 | Depths:4 | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 70767 | Depths:4 | Found Fefeseq's Book Emporium.
 70865 | Depths:4 | Noticed Parghit
 70867 | Depths:4 | Noticed Boris
 70897 | Depths:4 | Killed Boris
 72153 | Depths:4 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
 72485 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 97 gold pieces
 72485 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 39 gold pieces
 72661 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 66 gold pieces
 72974 | Depths:4 | Killed Parghit
 72979 | Depths:4 | Upgraded the game from 0.29-a0-322-g68df515428 to
                  | 0.29-a0-323-g050149af67
 72981 | Depths:4 | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
 72988 | Depths:4 | Learned a level 6 spell: Dispersal
 73089 | Hell     | Entered the Vestibule of Hell
 73089 | Hell     | Noticed Geryon
 73099 | Arena    | Entered the Arena
 73119 | Arena    | Killed Geryon
 73412 | Hell     | Identified the +8 spear of Indestructible Defence {protect,
                  | rF+++ rN+ Int-3} (Okawaru gifted it to you in the Vestibule
                  | of Hell)
 73412 | Hell     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 74144 | Hell     | Reached XP level 25. HP: 199/224 MP: 35/35
 74202 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the ashen valley of Gehenna.
 74248 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the decaying netherworld of Tartarus.
 74364 | Hell     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 74695 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the freezing wastes of Cocytus.
 74736 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the Iron City of Dis.

Illustrated notes

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Dodging        |     3           4     5  6  7  8  9    10 11    12    13       14    15 | 15.5
Long Blades    |     3        4        5  6  7  8 11 13 14                               | 14.0
Stealth        |     2           3     4  5  6        7     8  9       10    11 14 15 17 | 17.6
Shields        |              1  3  4  5  6  7  8  9    11 12 13 16 17 19 20    21    22 | 22.0
Fighting       |                 4     5  6  7     8  9 10 12 13    14 15    16    17 18 | 18.3
Invocations    |                 1  2  4  6  9 10    11    12             13 14 15       | 15.1
Armour         |                             2           3  5  6  7     8                |  8.8
Translocations |                                               3              4  6  7  9 |  9.1
Throwing       |                                               3  5  7  9 10    11 12 14 | 14.1
Short Blades   |                                                        1  6  9 11       | 11.0
Spellcasting   |                                                              2  4  6  8 |  8.6

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Falchion          |   143 |   141 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   284
       Punch             |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Tailslap          |       |    18 |   116 |   149 |   263 |   424 |   513 |   643 |    27 ||  2153
       Dagger            |       |    71 |   639 |   528 |       |       |       |       |       ||  1238
       Scimitar          |       |       |       |   303 |  1215 |  1794 |  1511 |       |       ||  4823
       Demon blade       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   482 |  2475 |    97 ||  3054
       Quick blade       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     3 |       ||     6
 Fire: Hand crossbow     |       |       |       |     1 |     3 |       |       |       |       ||     4
Throw: Stone             |     6 |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       ||     7
       Boomerang         |       |     7 |     1 |       |       |     1 |     8 |    96 |     5 ||   118
       Javelin           |       |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |    20 |     1 ||    36
       Dart              |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Cast: Passage of Golubr |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 |       ||     5
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |       ||     4
       Manifold Assault  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
Invok: Heroism           |       |     2 |    10 |    11 |    19 |    13 |    25 |    23 |       ||   103
       Finesse           |       |       |     1 |     5 |    13 |     8 |     8 |    12 |       ||    47
       Duel              |       |       |       |       |     2 |       |     2 |     2 |       ||     6
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     3 |     8 |       |       |       |       |       ||    11
  Use: Scroll            |       |     8 |    11 |     3 |     7 |     8 |    13 |     4 |     2 ||    56
       Potion            |       |     6 |     2 |     6 |       |     1 |     2 |     7 |       ||    24
 Stab: Sleeping          |    10 |     2 |     9 |     4 |    14 |    30 |    37 |    65 |     6 ||   177
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |     2 |     3 |     8 |     4 |    18 |       ||    36
       Confused          |       |       |       |       |     2 |       |       |       |       ||     2
       Petrified         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
       Petrifying        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
Armor: Robe              |    35 |    15 |    36 |    42 |       |       |       |       |       ||   128
       Skin              |       |    34 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    34
       Steam dragon scal |       |       |       |    63 |    72 |       |       |       |       ||   135
       Ring mail         |       |       |       |       |    25 |    50 |   265 |       |       ||   340
       Scale mail        |       |       |       |       |    60 |   150 |       |    22 |       ||   232
       Swamp dragon scal |       |       |       |       |       |       |    10 |    46 |       ||    56
       Acid dragon scale |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   173 |    23 ||   196
       Fire dragon scale |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     8 |       ||     8
Dodge: Dodged            |    96 |    89 |   187 |   399 |   737 |   841 |   986 |   936 |    65 ||  4336
Block: Other             |    17 |     2 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    19
       Buckler           |       |    79 |   203 |   400 |   733 |    41 |       |       |       ||  1456
       Kite shield       |       |       |       |       |       |   805 |       |       |       ||   805
       Tower shield      |       |       |       |       |       |  1205 |  2950 |  3095 |   164 ||  7414

Table legend: (Time is in decaauts)
 A = Elapsed time spent in this place.
 B = Non-inter-level travel time spent in this place.
 C = Inter-level travel time spent in this place.
 D = Time resting spent in this place.
 E = Time spent auto-exploring this place.
 F = Levels seen in this place.
 G = Mean time per level.
                   A        B        C        D        E      F       G
               +--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+-----+--------+
         Total |  72053 |  64949 |   7104 |   4932 |  45562 |  61 | 1181.2 |
       Dungeon |  18809 |  16804 |   2005 |   1018 |  12859 |  15 | 1253.9 |
        Temple |    161 |    135 |     26 |      0 |    119 |   1 |  161.0 |
          Lair |   9471 |   8559 |    912 |    333 |   6635 |   6 | 1578.5 |
        Shoals |   3558 |   3400 |    158 |      0 |   2475 |   4 |  889.5 |
     Snake Pit |   6494 |   6017 |    477 |    367 |   4299 |   4 | 1623.5 |
    Slime Pits |   2031 |   1901 |    130 |   1045 |    393 |   5 |  406.2 |
  Orcish Mines |   1917 |   1515 |    402 |    102 |    978 |   2 |  958.5 |
   Elven Halls |   4022 |   3639 |    383 |     42 |   2846 |   3 | 1340.7 |
        Vaults |  12287 |  10598 |   1689 |    639 |   7222 |   5 | 2457.4 |
        Depths |   8715 |   7811 |    904 |    904 |   5229 |   4 | 2178.8 |
          Hell |    782 |    768 |     14 |    120 |    372 |   1 |  782.0 |
         Sewer |    819 |    819 |      0 |      1 |    665 |   1 |  819.0 |
        Bailey |    770 |    770 |      0 |     69 |    495 |   1 |  770.0 |
      Ice Cave |    345 |    345 |      0 |    255 |     10 |   1 |  345.0 |
    Desolation |   1182 |   1182 |      0 |      0 |    645 |   1 | 1182.0 |
      Gauntlet |    546 |    546 |      0 |      0 |    319 |   1 |  546.0 |
         Arena |    137 |    137 |      0 |     35 |      0 |   6 |   22.8 |
               +--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+-----+--------+

Top non-repeatable levels by time:
Depths:2: 3279 daAuts
Vaults:1: 2939 daAuts
Vaults:4: 2717 daAuts
 Snake:3: 2320 daAuts
Depths:4: 2318 daAuts
Vaults:2: 2242 daAuts
Vaults:3: 2222 daAuts
Vaults:5: 2164 daAuts
     D:6: 1983 daAuts
 Snake:4: 1804 daAuts
  Lair:5: 1767 daAuts
    D:10: 1738 daAuts
    D:13: 1704 daAuts
Depths:3: 1703 daAuts
  Lair:6: 1702 daAuts



Edit 1:
I got the Icy Rune.
It was fun; rather exciting to be running around and trying to spend as little time as possible in Hell.
I should say that this character was extremely well suited for this particular Hell, and is rather strong in other ways besides.
Getting shafted hurt a lot worse than usual; I had to burn a ?mapping to get out safely after that happened.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Thursday, 14th April 2022, 20:53

Re: Hell Reform (Experimental Playable)

I died in Tar:4

https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... 204715.txt

My verdict:
It was fun.
The small levels were nice, the fights were tough, the special Hell effect was fun. The new monsters were fun, even if I still hate Miasmic clouds.
The get-punished-for-waiting effects made it tougher, but not in a way that made it more fun.

My recommendation:
Get rid of the get-punished-for-waiting effects, so that we can heal up in peace.
And replace them with an Can-Only-Enter-A-Hellbrance-Once effect.

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