Torment - revisited


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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 2nd June 2021, 07:04

Torment - revisited

A lot of the extended game play is almost solely based around Torment. Ok, well Hellfire and mummy curses too, but Torment is what I want to focus on here and now. For the record, I understand it is meant to be the balance for otherwise overpowered players, but, it also has the very ill side effect of creating what I feel like is a far too narrow set of parameters almost required for players that routinely want to play 100% of the game content (and shouldn't it be enjoyable as well as a 3 or 5 rune experience?)

There's a lot of variables and I don't feel up to explaining every angle (nor is it productive), so I'm just going to assume anyone taking torment changes seriously already knows the game well. Here's my proposal:

When a player is tormented, remove a large portion of their life, just like it is now (and isn't recoverable by killing the source monster), BUT, add a torment flag that lasts, let's say at least a few turns, and you are either immune or take even less damage from subsequent torments than the current formula while you have the flag. How long exactly, this is debatable and should probably be determined through closer statistical analysis. Why? Because the possibility of multiple torments is simply too harsh of a risk for builds that aren't made to resist it. The primary counters include:

Greater measures:
Necromutation - annoying how much xp it requires to get functional and still have a working build.
Mahkleb - Rush to replenish health after being tormented to try to avoid a mathematical probability of death.
TSO - Rush to replenish health after being tormented to try to avoid a mathematical probability of death.

Lesser measures:
Regen - Needs to be pretty massive, not a true option, but for some races like DemiGods it's all you can get beyond necro spells and it's a lot of hit 'n run.
Vampiric Weapons - Mostly joking.. you might drain a few monsters but this is a sketchy counter in extended.
Zin sanctuary, Ru Ely, or Gozag heals... healing potions (laugh), not very easily sustainable.

That's about it.

Now, if the gripe is that it means extended won't be hard enough, that should be solved by adding additional dangers that put characters at risk in a more balanced way, but that are also countered by other strengths besides the three primary strategies mentioned above.

I know this is a big thing for crawl, and it's a tall order, but I think it's also important to help diversity what can reasonably play the full content of the game, while taking a shot at what is somewhat of a lazy solution for difficulty that frankly isn't all that interesting. Besides the three counter-tactics listed, extended game comes down to mostly, prioritize killing the tormenting monster first, or maybe a hellion. Is that an oversimplification of extended game? Yeah, okay a bit, but not by a lot.

Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 2nd June 2021, 08:03

Re: Torment - revisited

Aside from providing guaranteed access to Necromutation, Kiku also directly protects worshipers from torment, with no skill investment required. So, one strategy would be to worship Kiku until a player is satisfied with their skill investment in their primary areas of interest, then start working towards getting Necromutation safely castable as an afterthought. Another strategy would be to worship Kiku when tackling Crypt, Tomb, and Tartarus, then switch to another god to deal with other areas.

Still, the proposal is interesting, but I'm not sure how impactful it would be when torment, as a percentage HP attack, is inherently less effective with repeated usage. In my experience, the bigger problem with torment is that the initial use is so impactful that it requires substantial recovery to counterbalance, which can be difficult to manage with Tomb's ambient noise and Tartarus's passive hell branch effects.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 2nd June 2021, 15:19

Re: Torment - revisited

You forgot statue form as a lesser counter.

But I completely agree. I forces specific builds way too hard. It's either having a suitable god or having necromutation. It is almost a no brainer meaning it is a boring choice. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing necromutation go and rebalance tormet to compensate.

Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 2nd June 2021, 15:29

Re: Torment - revisited

There's a lot more to Necromutation than just torment immunity, and there's no need to remove Necromutation just to create an excuse to rebalance torment. Any balance changes to torment have absolutely no impact on Necromutation's performance, so Necromutation can be safely ignored when deciding how to balance torment.
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Post Thursday, 3rd June 2021, 08:01

Re: Torment - revisited

svendre wrote:A lot of the extended game play is almost solely based around Torment. Ok, well Hellfire and mummy curses too, but Torment is what I want to focus on here and now.


CPTANT wrote:You forgot statue form as a lesser counter.
But I completely agree. It forces specific builds way too hard.


There's a post from December 2011 (!) which was about the time I started playing DCSS online. evilmike gave advice concerning torment, he showed several ways to deal with it (note his 3rd point: regen is fairly mandatory - unfortunately regen was removed in 0.25).

Nevertheless, in all the years I felt the same as CPTANT: that you are fairly limited with your built. Well, DD of Makhleb is a special case. Also, I twice went Kiku just for extended but this feels a bit like wasting your god just to get rid of torment and death curses.

If you don't play a pure caster you wil usually opt for either TSO or statue form or both. And over the years I got dozens of chars (not only with my primary account Turgon) which found some runes, are stuck somewhere in the depths and don't want to continue.

Let's say it like this: extended hurts, and even more after regen spell is gone. Maybe that's one reason why I lost interest in playing DCSS.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 3rd June 2021, 14:07

Re: Torment - revisited

FWIW, item-based regen, and non-species-specific mutation-based regen, recently got majorly buffed.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 4th June 2021, 19:17

Re: Torment - revisited

Torment feels to me like a design concession that players can get vastly more powerful than originally planned, their defensive stats or strategies effectively blanking the damage dealt by most monsters in extended. Good luck being a speed 10 melee monster against casters spamming L9 spells at max distance, or even against melee dudes with plenty of AC to tank your hits who will kill you in 1-3 hits at mindelay. Even monsters that attack at range will often find themselves incapable of doing any significant damage to melee characters, and incapable of taking enough turns to deal damage against casters (either because of a high damage spell, popcorn allies getting in the way, or popcorn summons by the caster). Smite targeters are a little better off, but their damage rolls are usually not high enough to force the player to reposition. The only "winners" in extended are the proactive monsters who make it a nightmare to find yourself in LOS with, either because of the threat of immediate death or the situation turning much worse. Torment is of course the shining example, but hellfire, paralyze (and malmutate maybe? idk if it's less bad now) are also up there. Whereas most extended characters can get smited or melee'd or shot at range for several turns in a row (which is long enough usually for them to dispatch everything), the same can't be said if one or more torment-knowers decide to torment instead of walk harmlessly forward on any given turn. It's such a powerful option, making it so terrible for the player to be in a group situation against such an enemy that they must either 1) run away to kill it safely alone, 2) nuke it as fast as possible, or 3) get one of the rare effects which mitigate it. Since tormenting monsters can torment the very first turn they enter LOS, and trying to nuke every torment source will inevitably lead to you eating some torments since you can't reliably one-shot anything in the game, most people choose option 3 to avoid getting cheesed out as best they can, or maybe (if you'll allow the editorialization) because they don't find torment any fun to play around normally.

Now, yes, that was all to say that torment is a "winner" in extended, but I want to go a little further to make the case that torment is not just powerful but overcentralizing. I'll start by talking about other "winners" I listed, as they are all egregious but for one reason or another not overcentralizing.

  • Hellfire - this is a strange one because the only way to resist is is Max HP/damage shaving. As such there isn't really a way to build "against" it so it doesn't inform any strategic decisions for the player. Tactically it is about as scary as torment, maybe just a little less bad since 1/2-to-2/3'ing your HP is probably more dangerous than a powerful die roll. It is also less common than torment afaik.
  • Paralyze - The only way to resist is high MR of course, which most extended builds will have (XL 27 helps). I suppose fearing para or other bad enchantments can warp a build to use an MR+ item or follow Dith or Trog, but I think that's basically unheard of because para is so rare, has to be chosen from among a spellbook of otherwise-useless spells, and beam-targets so it's hard to get hit by it when it's most dangerous (lots of monsters around). Floating eyes work differently and they were the main thing I was thinking about actually (where you never want to be in LOS with them) but once again like Hellfire there isn't really a strategic way to play around them. AC, max HP, and good positioning are also secret resistances to Para (well, I mean resistances to death from para). Also note that nowhere am I contending para (or any of these other mechanics) are good, only that they don't warp player decisions extremely. I think para is terrible design but that's a topic for another day.
  • Malmutate - Certainly annoying and it makes me play around malmutators in the same kind of way as tormentors, but again this is beam-targeted and somewhat rare (though maybe it's actually just on par with torment for rarity). The only reliable way to resist it is Zin, but I think with !mut changes and abyss farming if you need it it's not ever a lethal thing so it doesn't really warp gameplay enough to make players feel like they're missing out on something big by not using Zin.

So back to torment, where does that leave us? Like these other extended game "winners" it is hard to avoid, with rN being the frontrunner that only somewhat reduces its efficacy. rN+++ is still unquestionably a must especially in Tomb, but getting randomly double- or triple- tormented will still leave you hurting (down to 30% of initial after 3 with full rN). You can follow Kiku but this is basically just rN+++ for free, which at least does not restrict equipment slots as much. You can learn necro, or try to live with it, but it will be the largest source of damage and the biggest threat throughout the game for sure if you do this. Note that unlike with the other three "winners" I mentioned it isn't really viable to not pick one of these. Deciding "I will play a character who has no rN and takes 50% HP against torment in extended" is not really an option. Your hand is forced in one direction or another. Sacrifice equipment to get rN+++, sacrifice god to get Kiku, sacrifice skill investment into other places to get Necromutation. Did Ru design this mechanic? :D

Note that the barring lich form, torment is still a must-deal-with above almost anything else. Thus even with proper resistances it is hard to 'beat' torment. This is why I view it as overcentralizing. It restricts choices in endgame builds and is still powerful even when steps are taken against it.

So, is having an overcentralizing mechanic like torment so bad? True, it more or less mandates resistances and is still one of the most lethal threats to players anyway, and true that it is quite prevalent and cannot be avoided or mitigated by any other defensive stat. But what should the endgame look like, if not a wasteland of popcorn and a few high power threats like the rest of the game? Well, my main contention is that endgame popcorn is even worse than early game popcorn proportionally, and it could be buffed to be more respectable. At the same time torment and other "winner" mechanics could be toned down to balance this. Make enemies that do good damage but can't live long enough beefier, and make enemies that can never do any damage to endgame player stronger or give them some tactically relevant ability (like Mesm or something new). Additionally do not spawn enemies that are far too weak for endgame just because they are thematically appropriate (such as low level demons).

If you think about how torment plays out in non-lich-form builds, it roughly doubles the damage output of every other enemy in the fight until the player can reset. Due to it working off current HP it's hard to not have more than half HP in a fight with a tormentor, often less if you got unlucky. Only in these straits are most extended enemies much of a bother. Torment is also super game-able, separate the torment-user from the pack and they become harmless again. Therefore weakening torment and strengthening the default output of enemies in extended would make it less overcentralizing and have the benefit of being a little harder to game - well, you can still pick off packs safely no matter what I suppose, it just becomes less painfully obvious that it is the best choice with this change.

I think some monsters like Antaeus and Ancient Liches hit hard, so giving other monsters a shred of whatever kind of power they have might be enough. Orbs of Fire are also a good example, and they show that the game isn't completely void of endgame level threats that don't just LOS target you and halve your HP. I want some more dangerous enemies in that vein, a kind of middle ground between torment and popcorn.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 1st July 2021, 21:12

Re: Torment - revisited

Veras wrote:[*]Hellfire - this is a strange one because the only way to resist is is Max HP/damage shaving. As such there isn't really a way to build "against" it so it doesn't inform any strategic decisions for the player.


Transmutations school: AM I A JOKE TO YOU??

On a serious note, statue form resists torment and has the +30% hp buff which you forgot exists! If you want more you can do dragon form for +50%, but no torment resistance.

Also, like the entire concept of regeneration also works (either racial that you can't change, or gear/mutation based which you can try to get).

Also Also, many people switch gods specifically for healing in extended, or plan for a good extended god from the start...

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Majang

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Post Thursday, 15th July 2021, 04:33

Re: Torment - revisited

On a positive note, I'll add Storm Form to the list of counters I can confirm is helpful. Blinkbolt in particular is a great tool for blasting then finishing off tormentors (and malmutators) rather quickly and on-sight. I hadn't factored it in my previous analysis for lack of testing, but I'll say--it's quite good. I wish wereblood gave a little more health, but realize it's only a level 2 spell. When the two are used together, it's doable to forgo some or all of the other tactics. In fact, I'm finding that it's practically invalidating training armour if not for the early/mid game before you might be able to use it, or if you really want to take Zin for chaotic zones.

In my last game, I had an ogre air mage of vehumet that never trained armour or shields the whole game (I had to play more slowly and heavily rely on airstrike and lots of resting), at least until just before tackling slimes and abyss. They were an afterthought simply because Zin wouldn't put up with the transmutation. It was fairly nutty in fact. In retrospect, did I do the right thing going to all that trouble? Well, it seems like it. I barely had many mutation potions the whole 15 rune game, and without a lot of super-tedious play in Pan, I would have been looking at a mess of horrible dangerous mutations had I not been as conservative with them as I was in the easier zones.

Octopode air mages using storm form are just blazing good. I recommend everyone try it soon in case it gets "reviewed"!

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Post Tuesday, 10th August 2021, 09:11

Re: Torment - revisited

Veras wrote:Torment feels to me like a design concession that players can get vastly more powerful than originally planned, their defensive stats or strategies effectively blanking the damage dealt by most monsters in extended. Good luck being a speed 10 melee monster against casters spamming L9 spells at max distance, or even against melee dudes with plenty of AC to tank your hits who will kill you in 1-3 hits at mindelay. Even monsters that attack at range will often find themselves incapable of doing any significant damage to melee characters, and incapable of taking enough turns to deal damage against casters (either because of a high damage spell, popcorn allies getting in the way, or popcorn summons by the caster). Smite targeters are a little better off, but their damage rolls are usually not high enough to force the player to reposition. The only "winners" in extended are the proactive monsters who make it a nightmare to find yourself in LOS with, either because of the threat of immediate death or the situation turning much worse. Torment is of course the shining example, but hellfire, paralyze (and malmutate maybe? idk if it's less bad now) are also up there. Whereas most extended characters can get smited or melee'd or shot at range for several turns in a row (which is long enough usually for them to dispatch everything), the same can't be said if one or more torment-knowers decide to torment instead of walk harmlessly forward on any given turn. It's such a powerful option, making it so terrible for the player to be in a group situation against such an enemy that they must either 1) run away to kill it safely alone, 2) nuke it as fast as possible, or 3) get one of the rare effects which mitigate it. Since tormenting monsters can torment the very first turn they enter LOS, and trying to nuke every torment source will inevitably lead to you eating some torments since you can't reliably one-shot anything in the game, most people choose option 3 to avoid getting cheesed out as best they can, or maybe (if you'll allow the editorialization) because they don't find torment any fun to play around normally.

Now, yes, that was all to say that torment is a "winner" in extended, but I want to go a little further to make the case that torment is not just powerful but overcentralizing. I'll start by talking about other "winners" I listed, as they are all egregious but for one reason or another not overcentralizing.

  • Hellfire - this is a strange one because the only way to resist is is Max HP/damage shaving. As such there isn't really a way to build "against" it so it doesn't inform any strategic decisions for the player. Tactically it is about as scary as torment, maybe just a little less bad since 1/2-to-2/3'ing your HP is probably more dangerous than a powerful die roll. It is also less common than torment afaik.
  • Paralyze - The only way to resist is high MR of course, which most extended builds will have (XL 27 helps). I suppose fearing para or other bad enchantments can warp a build to use an MR+ item or follow Dith or Trog, but I think that's basically unheard of because para is so rare, has to be chosen from among a spellbook of otherwise-useless spells, and beam-targets so it's hard to get hit by it when it's most dangerous (lots of monsters around). Floating eyes work differently and they were the main thing I was thinking about actually (where you never want to be in LOS with them) but once again like Hellfire there isn't really a strategic way to play around them. AC, max HP, and good positioning are also secret resistances to Para (well, I mean resistances to death from para). Also note that nowhere am I contending para (or any of these other mechanics) are good, only that they don't warp player decisions extremely. I think para is terrible design but that's a topic for another day.
  • Malmutate - Certainly annoying and it makes me play around malmutators in the same kind of way as tormentors, but again this is beam-targeted and somewhat rare (though maybe it's actually just on par with torment for rarity). The only reliable way to resist it is Zin, but I think with !mut changes and abyss farming if you need it it's not ever a lethal thing so it doesn't really warp gameplay enough to make players feel like they're missing out on something big by not using Zin.

So back to torment, where does that leave us? Like these other extended game "winners" it is hard to avoid, with rN being the frontrunner that only somewhat reduces its efficacy. rN+++ is still unquestionably a must especially in Tomb, but getting randomly double- or triple- tormented will still leave you hurting (down to 30% of initial after 3 with full rN). You can follow Kiku but this is basically just rN+++ for free, which at least does not restrict equipment slots as much. You can learn necro, or try to live with it, but it will be the largest source of damage and the biggest threat throughout the game for sure if you do this. Note that unlike with the other three "winners" I mentioned it isn't really viable to not pick one of these. Deciding "I will play a character who has no rN and takes 50% HP against torment in extended" is not really an option. Your hand is forced in one direction or another. Sacrifice equipment to get rN+++, sacrifice god to get Kiku, sacrifice skill investment into other places to get Necromutation. Did Ru design this mechanic? :D

Note that the barring lich form, torment is still a must-deal-with above almost anything else. Thus even with proper resistances it is hard to 'beat' torment. This is why I view it as overcentralizing. It restricts choices in endgame builds and is still powerful even when steps are taken against it.

So, is having an overcentralizing mechanic like torment so bad? True, it more or less mandates resistances and is still one of the most lethal threats to players anyway, and true that it is quite prevalent and cannot be avoided or mitigated by any other defensive stat. But what should the endgame look like, if not a wasteland of popcorn and a few high power threats like the rest of the game? Well, my main contention is that endgame popcorn is even worse than early game popcorn proportionally, and it could be buffed to be more respectable. At the same time torment and other "winner" mechanics could be toned down to balance this. Make enemies that do good damage but can't live long enough beefier, and make enemies that can never do any damage to endgame player stronger or give them some tactically relevant ability (like Mesm or something new). Additionally do not spawn enemies that are far too weak for endgame just because they are thematically appropriate (such as low level demons).

If you think about how torment plays out in non-lich-form builds, it roughly doubles the damage output of every other enemy in the fight until the player can reset. Due to it working off current HP it's hard to not have more than half HP in a fight with a tormentor, often less if you got unlucky. Only in these straits are most extended enemies much of a bother. Torment is also super game-able, separate the torment-user from the pack and they become harmless again. Therefore weakening torment and strengthening the default output of enemies in extended would make it less overcentralizing and have the benefit of being a little harder to game - well, you can still pick off packs safely no matter what I suppose, it just becomes less painfully obvious that it is the best choice with this change.

I think some monsters like Antaeus and Ancient Liches hit hard, so giving other monsters a shred of whatever kind of power they have might be enough. Orbs of Fire are also a good example, and they show that the game isn't completely void of endgame level threats that don't just LOS target you and halve your HP. I want some more dangerous enemies in that vein, a kind of middle ground between torment and popcorn.


Very well said. I would like to see some of the danger in extended game and really even mid game transferred away from the 'abstract' threats like Torment, Hellfire, Malmutation, Banishment, Paralyze, back into conventional ones like physical and elemental damage. Perhaps a reduction of the effectiveness of AC and resistance, but make willpower give some minor protection against the aforementioned 'abstract' threats.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th August 2021, 14:01

Re: Torment - revisited

Is there any reason why we can't limit max damage from torment? 30-40HP could be quite reasonable unlike losing 150HP to a single LoS attack.
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Post Wednesday, 11th August 2021, 16:53

Re: Torment - revisited

I think this thread is the tail wagging the dog. Extended was always an afterthought for players who "could not get enough". It was never intended to be an "anchor" or balancing point for design. Unfortunately as time has passed extended has become normalized and now threatens to upend the game's "core" content and balance.

A much healthier proposal is complete deletion of extended content.

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Post Thursday, 12th August 2021, 08:35

Re: Torment - revisited

Kismet wrote:I think this thread is the tail wagging the dog. Extended was always an afterthought for players who "could not get enough". It was never intended to be an "anchor" or balancing point for design. Unfortunately as time has passed extended has become normalized and now threatens to upend the game's "core" content and balance.

A much healthier proposal is complete deletion of extended content.


It does not matter how extended was treated before, we are trying to improve current game. Do you believe Orc, Lair5-6, Elf, Vaults/Slime, all portals are ok to be broken just because they are optional? I hope not. Ziggurats are currently in position of "could not get enough", they are endless and contain no runes. Extended (except Abyss) is no longer endless, you are guaranteed to get pan runes pretty fast, thus extended is normal part of the game.
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Post Friday, 13th August 2021, 17:34

Re: Torment - revisited

From these discussions one would think that berserkers never win with 15 runes, as they have no access to the spells you mention and Trog is not a god you consider against torment. Also, I do not think that most 15 runners push for rN+++ as hard as you seem to think.

I personally think that it's just Pan and Hell being still way too long. Replacing torment with something won't help this.

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Post Tuesday, 24th August 2021, 00:13

Re: Torment - revisited

I'm Nebukadnezar.
I have 441 wins and 439 (>99%) are 15-rune-wins
With the exception of trolls and a few combos for tournaments I play each combo only once...and get a few (not speed running which would ruin my win%) combo hs.
So I consider myself to be good at the game.

But even then I'm still lowering myself looking for advice.
This concept is called WWYD.
WWYD = what would Yermak do ? (or some other expert players)
I cannot speak for him but I can have a look at his morgue because he has played and won everything.
So I check how he skilled and what kind of spells/invos did he use and ask myself: is he even a mortal being ? that's impossible !

While necromut/tso might be the easiest way there are many tools around torment.
0. I have never ever used necromutation.
1. statue form is rather low lvl and my go-to-spell if I want a safe way.
2. stealth becomes important again in extended. The diff. between geting hellfired/tormented asap and having some stealth is huge. It will most often put a '?' on top of a fiend and then you might avoid him. Doesn't work with loud spells.
3. inv is big and works fine in tandem with stealth. Hellions and tormentors cannot sinv.
4. How many fiends do Yermak/Nebukadnezar/etc. typically kill in a 15-rune game ? Much less than you would think :)
5. High stealth+throwing makes darts pretty strong (atropa). Or datura. Fiends which are killed by frenzied mid-lvl-demons cannot torment anymore.
6. When I have the turns to go for necro-school I really like infestation + haunt. Infestation is snowballing of torment-immune buddies. Haunt will place torment-immune monster around a fiend.

Yermak and other players might have a lot of other things to say but the point of my post was: you have to look at better players how they solve a certain problem to become a better player.
Then you can make suggestions how to solve a problem.
Not the other way around :)

about Hell+Pan too long: these 9 runes are 6-12 k turns. On average it is 1 rune / 1 k (or less when you want the hs).
It is the shortest part of the game imo.

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Post Friday, 27th August 2021, 20:52

Re: Torment - revisited

Nebukadnezar wrote:I'm Nebukadnezar.
I have 441 wins and 439 (>99%) are 15-rune-wins
With the exception of trolls and a few combos for tournaments I play each combo only once...and get a few (not speed running which would ruin my win%) combo hs.
So I consider myself to be good at the game.

But even then I'm still lowering myself looking for advice.
This concept is called WWYD.
WWYD = what would Yermak do ? (or some other expert players)
I cannot speak for him but I can have a look at his morgue because he has played and won everything.
So I check how he skilled and what kind of spells/invos did he use and ask myself: is he even a mortal being ? that's impossible !

While necromut/tso might be the easiest way there are many tools around torment.
0. I have never ever used necromutation.
1. statue form is rather low lvl and my go-to-spell if I want a safe way.
2. stealth becomes important again in extended. The diff. between geting hellfired/tormented asap and having some stealth is huge. It will most often put a '?' on top of a fiend and then you might avoid him. Doesn't work with loud spells.
3. inv is big and works fine in tandem with stealth. Hellions and tormentors cannot sinv.
4. How many fiends do Yermak/Nebukadnezar/etc. typically kill in a 15-rune game ? Much less than you would think :)
5. High stealth+throwing makes darts pretty strong (atropa). Or datura. Fiends which are killed by frenzied mid-lvl-demons cannot torment anymore.
6. When I have the turns to go for necro-school I really like infestation + haunt. Infestation is snowballing of torment-immune buddies. Haunt will place torment-immune monster around a fiend.

Yermak and other players might have a lot of other things to say but the point of my post was: you have to look at better players how they solve a certain problem to become a better player.
Then you can make suggestions how to solve a problem.
Not the other way around :)

about Hell+Pan too long: these 9 runes are 6-12 k turns. On average it is 1 rune / 1 k (or less when you want the hs).
It is the shortest part of the game imo.



Hi Nebukadnezar! You definitely have amazing stats, and I'm interested in the tactics you suggest. I make no claim to be as good as Yermak, but at least I have about close to the same win/rate with Yermak (20-22%) and I'm fairly sure the greater majority of my wins are 15 rune (with a fairly wide spread of combos), I'd guess 90% or more off the top of my head. I have no idea what Yermak's ratio of 15 rune games is, but I'd guess it's pretty high as his average score is also similar to mine: 2.4 million (Yermak) vs 2.7 million (Mine). I do know for fact that he's pushed the boundaries of speed runs far, far beyond what I ever actually try to do often.

Anyways, I'd like to comment on your strategies. Not as a criticism, but just my own personal experience with them and the stumbling blocks I hit:

1. Statue form - well, this is a solid tactic, it should have been more prominently listed in my original post but I wasn't complete enough in the first round. There really aren't any downsides, other than losing some gear, and the slowness I guess can get a little painful sometimes if not paying proper attention.
2. Stealth - yeah it's something I'm always loving to try but seems to not work out well for me often past opening/mid game. I'm not really sure why, it could be related to just my play style, but in general I feel like it's good "a lot of the time" until it isn't, and as soon as one bad teleport or paralysis or a monster shouts - it's fairly nullified, and points spent into the skill, dex, more limited armour choices, god choices, etc. don't pay off on the average anymore. I'm not saying it has to be, but it sure feels like it to me. If I had to guess, it may be related that I like to kill everything and don't skip past stuff all too often (also why I don't speed run much).
3. Invis - I agree it is helpful for hellions and that it does not come with many downsides other than investments in hexes in general don't pay off wonderfully it seems in extended. I didn't talk about Invisibility because the topic was torment mainly and not hellfire.
4. I can imagine fewer than I, but that could be the issue - that I have a hard time "leaving stuff behind". I guess it's like a compulsion to smash/blast everything, similar to exploring every corner of maps. I don't think I'm alone in that boat. It's not good for score for sure, and conceivably for stats as well to take on 100% of every dangerous situation. I'll have to contemplate this more.
5. Darts - I use curare and poison early on but don't mess with the others in extended. I'll give it some testing - thanks!
6. Infestation+Haunt... well, both strong spells, I guess since they are torment resistant, they're relevant. I like Haunt on lichform or undead builds more for blocking dispel undead, or black mark-whatever it's called (which really, really hurt from a few sources... demonspawn and Tzmitzles(sp), and one Pan lord...sorry can't recall name now). Even though they can be helpful to kill a tormenting enemy, I still don't really see them as more effective than just about any other method where you toss damage their way, and there are a lot of ways!

Thanks for the feedback.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 203

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Sunday, 29th August 2021, 11:39

Re: Torment - revisited

svendre wrote:1. Statue form - well, this is a solid tactic, it should have been more prominently listed in my original post but I wasn't complete enough in the first round. There really aren't any downsides, other than losing some gear, and the slowness I guess can get a little painful sometimes if not paying proper attention.

I've added SF because it is cheap (investment), solves torment to a certain degree..but it also makes you: stealthy :)

svendre wrote:2. Stealth - yeah it's something I'm always loving to try but seems to not work out well for me often past opening/mid game. I'm not really sure why, it could be related to just my play style, but in general I feel like it's good "a lot of the time" until it isn't, and as soon as one bad teleport or paralysis or a monster shouts - it's fairly nullified, and points spent into the skill, dex, more limited armour choices, god choices, etc. don't pay off on the average anymore. I'm not saying it has to be, but it sure feels like it to me. If I had to guess, it may be related that I like to kill everything and don't skip past stuff all too often (also why I don't speed run much).

I think I understand this.
I stab and then...what ?
I've been there, too

svendre wrote:3. Invis - I agree it is helpful for hellions and that it does not come with many downsides other than investments in hexes in general don't pay off wonderfully it seems in extended. I didn't talk about Invisibility because the topic was torment mainly and not hellfire.

There are 4 sources of torment besides tomb/uniue monster.
3 fiends and 1 monster called 'tormentor'.
It is the most common source of torment.
*This* tormentor cannot sinv :)

svendre wrote:4. I can imagine fewer than I, but that could be the issue - that I have a hard time "leaving stuff behind". I guess it's like a compulsion to smash/blast everything, similar to exploring every corner of maps. I don't think I'm alone in that boat. It's not good for score for sure, and conceivably for stats as well to take on 100% of every dangerous situation. I'll have to contemplate this more.

Well..this is your choice :)

svendre wrote:5. Darts - I use curare and poison early on but don't mess with the others in extended. I'll give it some testing - thanks!

You might have noticed that the effect of poison darts is much stronger with some throwing but also stealth.
Curare looks different because the minimum poison applied is strong and you'll always get slow.
The typical (melee) development is then to put on the heaviest armor (killing stealth) and skilling melee/fighting/defences.
Throwing darts looks like a wasted turn then for a long time.
The effect of special darts like atropa/datura is based on throwing+stealth.
In my games (stabber/extended) I have throwing=16 (javelins) and stealth = 27.
Now as a side effect of what I'm already skilling I get a >90% to hit on Lom Lombon with a 50% to apply atropa.
This means he is dead even if I decide not to try walking to him while he is asleep.
Like any other Boss, Pan lord, fiend.
Darts are extremely strong but only with stealth.
You won't have many darts unless you're playing Oka (god of ammo).
But we're here in extended and you'll have found some darts on the floor no matter which god you chose.
svendre wrote:6. Infestation+Haunt... well, both strong spells, I guess since they are torment resistant, they're relevant. I like Haunt on lichform or undead builds more for blocking dispel undead, or black mark-whatever it's called (which really, really hurt from a few sources... demonspawn and Tzmitzles(sp), and one Pan lord...sorry can't recall name now). Even though they can be helpful to kill a tormenting enemy, I still don't really see them as more effective than just about any other method where you toss damage their way, and there are a lot of ways!

Synergy.
Infestation+haunt gives monster which are torment immune with slowing attacks while you (the stabber) are inv. (vs. tormentor) getting stabs of opportunity surrounded by a meat wall made for extended.

You don't need all of these tools and other players might even have better solutions but this set of tools is good enough for me to streak a mini-streak of hs.
click on my sign.
The last 4 wins were vp.
I missed a hs with vpbe but got 3 consecutive wins with a hs each time.
This is pretty good.
What I've written above is tested/proven by myself.
You might say that vp are undead but being undead comes at a cost: no regen while monster in LOS, Tzitzimitl are extra deadly
So I've added SF to begin with.
anyone can do it.

It might be that this style of playing (it differs a lot from melee-brutes) is not to your liking but you have all the tools needed (I didn't mention bvc because it is 'free' if you want some necro+passwall).

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Sunday, 29th August 2021, 16:27

Re: Torment - revisited

Looks like good information to me. I knew some of it, but it helps to put it all together in context. Tips much appreciated. I don't have a "favorite" play style, but it's certainly more enjoyable to play things that don't disappoint. I may run a few stealth builds with these things in mind. I presume you're running shadow dragon armor in extended, or are you not necessarily taking advantage of stealth for stabbing, but just training it anyways for the bonuses to darts?

Thanks!

Spider Stomper

Posts: 203

Joined: Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 00:14

Location: Germany

Post Monday, 30th August 2021, 22:23

Re: Torment - revisited

No, you can check the morgue which armour a player used when: it's right at the end.
sda is heavy.
It would kill dodging, spells and.. stelth (+adding some).
Since I was aiming for hs sda would have forced me to skill diff. resulting in more turns or giving up on a school.
So I went with fairie, uicksilver, fda (late) but mainly with tla/ringmail.
If your goal is diff, sda is a nice armour.

EDIT:
stealth is useful for stabbing, darts and...walking unnoticed.
Usually I don't fight in Pan.
I just walk looking for an exit.
This was about torment: you can avoid it pretty often by walking away (not always)

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