New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Saturday, 13th February 2021, 22:00

New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Figured we'd probably want to collect people's experiences with the new EV formula, I've been hearing whispers of extreme dodginess and have come to confirm them!

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 204201.txt

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.27-a0-334-g52645ef (webtiles) character file.

Game seed: 10527085437527630480

1764976 Tasonir the Intangible (level 27, 124/124 HPs)
             Began as a Felid Monk on Feb 13, 2021.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes!
             
             The game lasted 02:49:57 (64692 turns).

Tasonir the Intangible (Felid Monk)                Turns: 64692, Time: 02:49:58

Health: 124/124    AC:  3    Str: 23    XL:     27
Magic:  50/50      EV: 98    Int: 31    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   5059       SH:  0    Dex: 49    Spells: 38/62 levels left
                                        Lives:  2   Deaths: 2

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis +     - Unarmed
rCold    + + .     Faith    .   (shield unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   +   (armour unavailable)
rPois    .         Reflect  .   (helmet unavailable)
rElec    .         Harm     .   (cloak unavailable)
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   (gloves unavailable)
Will     ++++.                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    ++........             p - amulet of guardian spirit
HPRegen  0.30/turn              G - ring "Doxy" {rF+ Int+4 Slay+4 Stlth+}
MPRegen  0.32/turn              g - ring "Lonuvos" {rC+ MP+9}

@: studying Hexes, very slow
A: very small, no armour, no weapons or thrown items, stealth, claws 1, fangs 3,
see invisible, agile 2, fire resistance 2, speed 1, low mp 1, shaggy fur 3,
MP-powered wands, sharp paws
0: Orb of Zot
}: 3/15 runes: decaying, dark, gossamer
a: Renounce Religion, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time


Obviously Felids of Chei are going to have incredible dexterity and dodging, and I did put most of my level up points into dex, even though int probably would have been better. But aside from some stat points, I didn't really try to max out dodging any more than I normally would on a felid, and wanted to see what a "normal" felid would play like. Pretty much mowed down crowds with tab for most of the game. Meleed Hydras, death yaks, juggernauts, fiends, orbs of fire, etc.

I do think it's currently too strong; although I do think allowing for higher EV than before is a good idea, this is probably too much EV. Maybe just start the cap around 40-50 ev instead of 30?

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 00:14

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I tried seeing what I could do with a long-blade wielding Demigod by putting each 4x stat boost into DEX and was very unimpressed with the resulting EV. Maybe size has too big of an impact?

In any case, if a nerf is needed, I think a constant, gradual one is preferable to just introducing a new hidden breakpoint, whether it's consistently flat like the new STR formula or consistently offers diminishing returns, e.g. each point of DEX contributes only 99% to EV what the previous point did.

For this message the author Nekoatl has received thanks:
andrew

Spider Stomper

Posts: 245

Joined: Friday, 13th December 2019, 01:33

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 01:20

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I'm not sure it's such a problem; one can already get high enough AC to trivialize a large fraction of the enemies in the game. And then there are some that ignore AC, either officially or by doing such massive damage that most will still get through. So now one can trivialize a different large fraction with high EV.

For this message the author andrew has received thanks: 2
petercordia, TheMeInTeam

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 02:10

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

And a fair number of those that EV doesn't help much, or at all, with are in the extended game, which the OP didn't tackle.

For this message the author Nekoatl has received thanks:
andrew

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 686

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 03:20

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Def want to continue to monitor this. Might be possible to just nerf size factor in some way, otherwise some kind of constantly diminishing return on dex seems reasonable, as long as there's no breakpoint involved.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1085

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 09:45

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Spriggans and Felids definitely become much, much less annoying to play at high levels. Yes, they were strong before and they are even stronger now, but the gameplay at least become smoother.

But how this change affects other EV relying characters? Merfolk, Kobold, Halfling, Deep Elf? Is a dex-focused minotaur could be an ok choice now?

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 797

Joined: Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 15:20

Post Sunday, 14th February 2021, 18:14

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I can only speak for Octopodes, for us gameplay also has become smoother. Its not just small size species,normal size species that max dodging profit heavily.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 15th February 2021, 00:03

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Been poking around in Wizard mode, and a normal size character with max Dodging gains slightly more than 1 point of EV per point of dodging. So, an octopode with max Dodging wearing 8 +6 rings of dexterity can indeed reach impressive levels of EV. Presumably other species can as well, if they collect lots of +DEX artefacts.

I'm now convinced that some form of reduction should be implemented, but I think my previous diminishing returns suggestion is not good enough, at least on its own. Reason being, this test revealed that even with low DEX, it's possible to get more value from +DEX equipment than +EV equipment, which IMO should never happen because DEX provides several other benefits besides increasing EV, and on top of that +DEX is generally easier to acquire than +EV.

So, regardless of whether it makes sense to put diminishing returns on DEX to EV, I think we need a reduction to Dodging's influence on how much DEX contributes to EV. Aesthetically, I would prefer a flat reduction, as the skill experience curve already applies significant diminishing returns on experience points invested, but that would make low levels of Dodging less effective, and likely necessitate a lot of rebalancing which seems like a big pain, so it's probably easier to just bite the bullet and go with diminishing returns. Then again, the early game is the easiest part of the game if you don't pick a particularly weak species/background combination, if you use a balanced skill investment strategy, and if you don't get exceptionally unlucky with an out-of-depth monster spawn or nasty weapon on a dangerous unique, so perhaps I'm overestimating the need for rebalancing with a flat decrease.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 797

Joined: Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 15:20

Post Monday, 15th February 2021, 00:14

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

DEX provides several other benefits over dodging EV


I am aware of a very low utility stealth bonus and a mild shield bonus. I'd rather argue for removal of +EV rings if +DEX rings are better anyway.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 15th February 2021, 00:39

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

There's also a reduced chance of making noise when interacting with doors, an accuracy boost on par with a level of a weapon skill or Fighting, an increased chance of proc'ing auxiliary attacks, and an increased chance of successfully stabbing monsters suffering from certain disadvantages, e.g. confusion. I may be forgetting some.

In terms of defense, EV rings are normally better than DEX rings. With the current formulas, assuming normal size and no ER, DEX starts providing EV at a 1-to-1 ratio at about Dodging level 18. For such a character, +6 DEX provides +4 EV at Dodging level 12.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 245

Joined: Friday, 13th December 2019, 01:33

Post Monday, 15th February 2021, 03:43

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

One could just either make DEX rings +4, or make EV rings +6.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 929

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Monday, 15th February 2021, 13:07

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I don't think there's an issue with Dex rings being better than EV rings in the late game.

It fits the pattern of crawl. Strength is also better than Slaying in the late game, but worse in the early game.

As for the complaints that a felid now feels untouchable; I'd say the same thing about most characters. Heavy armour dudes usually feel untouchable. Even an int-focused build with a medium shield and +7 swamp dragon scales and an fire/ice/earth/air staff or quickblade can melee most enemies in the game.

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
andrew

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 16th February 2021, 20:30

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Hellmonk wrote:Def want to continue to monitor this. Might be possible to just nerf size factor in some way, otherwise some kind of constantly diminishing return on dex seems reasonable, as long as there's no breakpoint involved.

I do think it's entirely possible that the size factor is what's really boosting this. Maybe I'll try a human normie next, still go chei, but not have the size/dodging aptitude to really crank it early/mid game.

Imho the way to do a dex limit would be basically like the str rule is now (over 10 str is +2.5% damage), so I'd word it like:

Over 40 EV each point is reduced by 25%, and over 60 each point is reduced by 50%.

Specific numbers are just an example, but seem about right to me? Some values for comparison:
40 is 40
48 is 46
55 is 51.25 (I think the game already handles rounding ac/ev values, no?)
60 is 55
70 is 60
100 is 75

I'm not 100% sure such a limit is the best way to go, but if you do want a limit, that's one that is easy to calculate in your head, which I like.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 04:33

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I was kind of hoping for this to be more of a morgue-driven look at the characters people play, and how they feel the change impacted them, that sort of thing. In that idea, here's some notes from the human of chei I threatened to play before:

I didn't find the Chei altar until D:8, it wasn't in the temple. By that point I was level 10 and had these stats:

  Code:
Tasonir the Spear-Bearer (Human Ice Elementalist)  Turns: 12963, Time: 00:25:24

Health: 65/65      AC: 14    Str:  8    XL:     10   Next: 13%
Magic:  17/17      EV: 13    Int: 22    God:   
Gold:   496        SH:  0    Dex: 17    Spells: 15/19 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   p - +0 trident
rCold    . . .     Faith    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   l - +0 ring mail
rPois    .         Reflect  .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Harm     .   w - +2 cloak {rCorr}
rCorr    +         Rampage  .   (no gloves)
Will     .....     Clarity  +   M - +0 pair of boots
Stlth    +.........             (no amulet)
HPRegen  0.20/turn              c - +6 ring of intelligence
MPRegen  0.15/turn              E - +4 ring of protection

@: no status effects
A: horns 1, clarity, wild magic 1, MP-powered wands
a: no special abilities

   Skills:
 - Level 1.0 Fighting
 + Level 9.3 Polearms
 + Level 3.3 Armour
 - Level 6.0 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Ice Magic


I went for the usual hybrid start with an ice elementalist background, using ramparts/armor to boost my defense and damage in melee (with a polearm in this case). 2 floors later, I find a +6 dex ring and the entrance to lair. With 27 dex (at 2* chei piety and the +6 ring) I'm at 22 ev, wearing a ring mail.

Clearing the lair was very easy, but I want to stress that I don't think it's the EV doing this. I switch to a troll leather armor, which was recently raised from .4 to 1 regen, and I'm using ramparts (a very powerful new spell) which are both making the lair much easier than it has been. How much to attribute to the EV changes is very, very hard to tell. Still, I did enjoy having 20+ ev all lair long. By the end of lair, I'm looking at these stats:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.27-a0-370-g5931744 (webtiles) character file.

Tasonir the Spear-Bearer (Human Ice Elementalist)  Turns: 21330, Time: 00:57:40

Health: 111/111    AC: 20    Str: 23    XL:     15   Next: 19%
Magic:  23/26      EV: 34    Int: 31    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   1357       SH:  0    Dex: 41    Spells: 22/29 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis .   a - +3 trident (vorpal)
rCold    + . .     Faith    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   B - +0 troll leather armour
rPois    .         Reflect  .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Harm     .   l - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   O - +0 pair of gloves
Will     +....     Clarity  +   N - +0 pair of boots {Fly}
Stlth    +++.......             P - amulet of magic regeneration
HPRegen  1.28/turn              K - +6 ring of dexterity
MPRegen  0.45/turn              E - +4 ring of protection

@: icy armour, flying, very slow
A: horns 1, clarity, wild magic 1, MP-powered wands
a: Stop Flying, Renounce Religion, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step
From Time


You are on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 17 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 1357 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +3 vorpal trident (weapon)
 b - a +0 vampiric bardiche
Missiles
 o - 8 javelins
 z - 10 curare-tipped darts
Armour
 d - a kite shield
 i - a +0 helmet
 l - a scarf of resistance (worn)
 w - a +2 cloak of preservation
 B - a +0 troll leather armour (worn)
 D - +0 swamp dragon scales
 M - a +2 scale mail of fire resistance
 N - a +0 pair of boots of flying (worn)
 O - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 T - a +0 ring mail of fire resistance
Jewellery
 c - a +6 ring of intelligence
 E - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
 F - the ring of Jeggugeo {rPois rC+ rN+ MP-9 Int+2}
   (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your magic capacity (-9).
 K - a +6 ring of dexterity (left hand)
 L - a ring of dexterity
 P - an amulet of magic regeneration (around neck)
 Z - a ring of positive energy
Wands
 H - a wand of digging (10)
 I - a wand of iceblast (9)
 S - a wand of acid (4)
 X - a wand of mindburst (16)
Scrolls
 g - 4 scrolls of fog
 h - 6 scrolls of amnesia
 m - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 n - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon
 p - a scroll labelled QUAGELU UFUAL
 v - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 x - a scroll labelled MYNKAE ZENWARR
 y - 2 scrolls of blinking
 A - 3 scrolls of identify
 J - 3 scrolls of fear
 U - 2 scrolls labelled UVUAPUSK PEIX
 W - a scroll labelled NYEXEJ YR CULE
Potions
 e - 9 potions of curing
 f - 4 potions of heal wounds
 j - 3 potions of might
 k - 2 potions of magic
 q - a fuming sapphire potion
 r - a potion of mutation
 s - 5 potions of flight
 t - 5 orange potions
 u - a purple potion
 C - 2 dark potions
 G - a glowing yellow potion
 Q - a sapphire potion
 R - a brown potion
 Y - a glowing ruby potion


   Skills:
 + Level 8.3 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Polearms
 + Level 7.7 Armour
 + Level 11.7 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 + Level 7.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 8.9 Ice Magic
 - Level 9.0 Invocations


You have 22 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level
a - Freeze                Ice            100%         1%          1   
b - Frozen Ramparts       Ice            100%         1%          3   
c - Ozocubu's Armour      Ice            73%          1%          3   


Note the 20 AC here counts Ozo's armor, but I always fought with armor on, so it feels more fair to include it. The rings are also +6 dex and +4 ac...I found them, I'm certainly going to use them. You may want to subtract them if you want to consider the unlucky case. Note I am wearing a scarf instead of my +2 cloak, so I'm covering resistances I'd normally want on the rings that way.

I'll finish the character in a bit, but I think after this point it's fairly clear that I'll keep stacking EV with my decent-but-not-great AC and have a fairly easy game. I haven't switched to it yet, but the vamp bardiche is also going to be fairly OP once I have the skill for it.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 05:34

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.27-a0-370-g5931744 (webtiles) character file.

Tasonir the Impaler (Human Ice Elementalist)       Turns: 34347, Time: 01:53:21

Health: 144/144    AC: 26    Str: 27    XL:     19   Next: 34%
Magic:  30/33      EV: 34    Int: 28    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   826        SH:  0    Dex: 35    Spells: 28/38 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis .   G - +2 glaive (vamp)
rCold    + . .     Faith    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   +   B - +1 troll leather armour
rPois    +         Reflect  .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    +         Harm     .   l - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   P - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
Will     ++...     Clarity  +   N - +2 pair of boots {Fly}
Stlth    +++.......             d - amulet "Kuabot" {Spirit rElec rPois rF++ Int-4}
HPRegen  1.34/turn              V - ring of willpower
MPRegen  0.23/turn              E - +4 ring of protection

@: icy armour, flying, very slow
A: horns 1, clarity, wild magic 1, MP-powered wands
}: 1/15 runes: serpentine
a: Stop Flying, Renounce Religion, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step
From Time



   Skills:
 + Level 11.2 Fighting
 + Level 19.4 Polearms
 - Level 10.0 Armour
 + Level 13.8 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 - Level 10.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Translocations
 - Level 10.0 Ice Magic
 - Level 9.0 Invocations


You have 28 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level
a - Manifold Assault      Tloc           58%          6%          4   
b - Frozen Ramparts       Ice            100%         1%          3   
c - Ozocubu's Armour      Ice            74%          1%          3   


After getting first rune; I included Ozo's armor again, although I'm bothering to cast it less and less. In addition to the Vampiric Bardiche, I now also have a Vampiric Glaive, so I can use that while working on the remaining polearm skill. This game is being way, way, way too kind. That amulet is one of the best amulets I've ever seen. In years.

Note I'm not wearing the +6 dex ring anymore, so EV's not incredibly high(still the same as earlier), but 34 is quite strong still. I expect to raise it in the very near future so I can hit 45-50 by Zot.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 06:11

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

So due to careless play and not yet really fully internalizing that Xtahua's roar now can paralyze, we can see that paralysis is a hard counter to high EV characters:

  Code:
Game seed: 14525837357504564057

277961 Tasonir the Impaler (level 21, -9/164 HPs)
             Began as a Human Ice Elementalist on Feb 18, 2021.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Mangled by Xtahua (16 damage)
             ... while paralysed by Xtahua
             ... on level 1 of the Vaults.
             The game lasted 02:14:26 (41135 turns).

Tasonir the Impaler (Human Ice Elementalist)       Turns: 41135, Time: 02:14:27

Health: -9/164     AC: 18    Str: 28    XL:     21   Next: 27%
Magic:  35/35      EV:  2    Int: 36    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   465        SH:  0    Dex: 35    Spells: 30/40 levels left

rFire    + + .     SeeInvis .   G - +2 glaive (vamp)
rCold    + . .     Faith    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   B - +2 troll leather armour
rPois    +         Reflect  .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Harm     .   l - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   P - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
Will     +....     Clarity  +   N - +2 pair of boots {Fly}
Stlth    +++.......             q - amulet of regeneration
HPRegen  2.37/turn              D - ring of the Furies {+Fly rPois rF+ Int+3}
MPRegen  0.24/turn              E - +4 ring of protection

@: paralysed, flying, studying Air Magic, very slow
A: horns 1, clarity, wild magic 1, MP-powered wands
}: 2/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled
a: Stop Flying, Renounce Religion, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step
From Time


You were on level 1 of the Vaults.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and saw 34 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 1 time.
You also visited: Sewer and Ice Cave.

You collected 3551 gold pieces.
You spent 3086 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +3 vampiric bardiche
 G - a +2 vampiric glaive (weapon)
Missiles
 o - 61 javelins
 z - 10 curare-tipped darts
Armour
 l - a scarf of resistance (worn)
 w - a +2 cloak of preservation
 x - a scarf of invisibility
 B - a +2 troll leather armour (worn)
 N - a +2 pair of boots of flying (worn)
 P - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
Magical Staves
 t - a staff of cold
Jewellery
 d - the amulet "Kuabot" {Spirit rElec rPois rF++ Int-4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [amulet of guardian spirit]
   
   It causes incoming damage to be split between your health and magic.
   It affects your intelligence (-4).
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
 q - an amulet of regeneration (around neck)
 s - a ring of see invisible
 D - the ring of the Furies (left hand) {+Fly rPois rF+ Int+3}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you fly.
 E - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
 F - the ring of Jeggugeo {rPois rC+ rN+ MP-9 Int+2}
   (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your magic capacity (-9).
 I - a ring of protection from cold
 K - an amulet of magic regeneration
 L - a +6 ring of dexterity
 M - a ring of protection from fire
 T - a ring of ice
 U - a ring of magical power
 V - a ring of willpower
 Z - a ring of positive energy
Wands
 H - a wand of digging (15)
 S - a wand of acid (31)
Scrolls
 b - 4 scrolls of identify
 c - a scroll of summoning
 g - 7 scrolls of fog
 h - a scroll of enchant weapon
 i - 2 scrolls of vulnerability {unknown}
 m - 14 scrolls of teleportation
 n - a scroll of silence {unknown}
 p - 2 scrolls of enchant armour
 v - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
 y - 5 scrolls of blinking
 J - 3 scrolls of fear
 W - 4 scrolls of random uselessness {unknown}
Potions
 e - 13 potions of curing
 f - 5 potions of heal wounds
 j - 4 potions of might
 k - 3 potions of magic
 r - 3 potions of mutation
 u - 2 potions of haste {unknown}
 A - 7 potions of resistance
 C - 3 potions of brilliance
 Q - a potion of berserk rage {unknown}
 R - 2 potions of ambrosia
 Y - 2 potions of invisibility {unknown}


   Skills:
 + Level 13.9 Fighting
 - Level 20.0 Polearms
 - Level 10.0 Armour
 + Level 16.0 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 - Level 10.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 7.9 Translocations
 - Level 10.0 Ice Magic
 + Level 10.7 Invocations


You had 30 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level
a - Manifold Assault      Tloc           78%          2%          4   
b - Frozen Ramparts       Ice            100%         1%          3   
c - Ozocubu's Armour      Ice            86%          1%          3   


  Code:
 41105 | Vaults:2 | Noticed Xtahua
 41114 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 16 in Dodging
 41128 | Vaults:1 | Paralysed by Xtahua for 7 turns
 41135 | Vaults:1 | HP: 7/164 [Xtahua (6)]
 41135 | Vaults:1 | Mangled by Xtahua


Good Ol' 7 turn maximum, too.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 16:57

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

petercordia wrote:I don't think there's an issue with Dex rings being better than EV rings in the late game.

It fits the pattern of crawl. Strength is also better than Slaying in the late game, but worse in the early game.


Well, a consequence of one category of ring completely outclassing another is that the choice between them becomes a no-brainer decision. Choosing between getting a bigger EV bonus, or a smaller EV bonus and several other benefits is interesting. Choosing between getting a smaller EV bonus, or a bigger EV bonus and several other benefits is not.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 245

Joined: Friday, 13th December 2019, 01:33

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 18:21

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Sure, once you've trained Dodging to a high level. The decision between a bardiche and a halberd is also a no-brainer once you've trained Polearms to a high level. But some characters won't have, and the early game exists.

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 18th February 2021, 21:18

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Nekoatl wrote:
petercordia wrote:I don't think there's an issue with Dex rings being better than EV rings in the late game.

It fits the pattern of crawl. Strength is also better than Slaying in the late game, but worse in the early game.


Well, a consequence of one category of ring completely outclassing another is that the choice between them becomes a no-brainer decision. Choosing between getting a bigger EV bonus, or a smaller EV bonus and several other benefits is interesting. Choosing between getting a smaller EV bonus, or a bigger EV bonus and several other benefits is not.


Evasion is still better for most characters; you need a high enough dodging skill for 6 dex to be worth more than 4 EV. I'm not sure exactly what level of dodging makes 6 dex = 5 ev, but it's around 15+? Dex does have other benefits of course, but at least on EV, most characters would want the evasion ring early on, and then late game it might be less valuable.

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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Friday, 19th February 2021, 07:41

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

andrew wrote:Sure, once you've trained Dodging to a high level. The decision between a bardiche and a halberd is also a no-brainer once you've trained Polearms to a high level.


This is true if both of them have identical enchantment levels and brands, but when enchantment levels and brands differ, the choice of best weapon becomes less obvious and may vary from one encounter to the next. This also applies to choosing when and on what to use enchant/brand weapon scrolls.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1085

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Friday, 19th February 2021, 15:25

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I think you underestimate base damage: you need a pretty big difference for a halberd to catch up with a bardiche at 26 polearm skill (with reasonable strength/fighting skills). For example, at str/fighting 20 (polearms 26), an unbarnded +0 bardiche is just marginally worse than a +9 halberd of flaming/elec. If you just have a +0 vorpal bardiche (or whatever it is called nowadays), it is already better than any non-artefact halberd (and, of course, most artefact ones).

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Saturday, 20th February 2021, 02:13

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.27-a0-370-g5931744 (webtiles) character file.

Tasonir the Nimble (Octopode Ice Elementalist)     Turns: 16027, Time: 00:45:10

Health: 63/74      AC:  5    Str:  7    XL:     12   Next: 24%
Magic:  33/33      EV: 33    Int: 24    God:    Gozag
Gold:   217        SH:  0    Dex: 23    Spells: 16/27 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .     - Unarmed
rCold    + . .     Faith    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   (helmet restricted)
rPois    +         Reflect  .   h - amulet of the acrobat
rElec    .         Harm     .   M - +4 ring of protection
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   k - +4 ring of evasion
Will     ++...                  v - +6 ring of intelligence
Stlth    ++++......             g - +6 ring of dexterity
HPRegen  0.22/turn              d - ring of willpower
MPRegen  0.23/turn              L - ring of Gozag's Generosity {rPois rC+ MP+9}
                                F - +4 ring of evasion
                                I - ring of willpower

@: no status effects
A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, camouflage
1, gelatinous body 1
a: Renounce Religion, Potion Petition, Call Merchant, Bribe Branch

   Skills:
 - Level 4.0 Fighting
 + Level 11.7 Dodging
 - Level 2.6 Stealth
 + Level 8.9 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 8.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.0 Ice Magic


Currently on Lair: 1, and yeah, dodging is now a viable primary defense! This run got somewhat lucky with two early ev rings and one dex ring, but they were all just found on the floor randomly. The +4 protection ring did come from a gozag shop. Acrobat now seems like a good amulet, where as before I almost never used it. It's still not going to beat regen/faith/guardian spirit for most characters, but it's good for now.

Wanted to play a non-chei character for comparison, needed someone who could still get high EV though, so octopode seemed a natural choice. Melee octopodes have always been a challenge to get started, but now have an easier time scaling defenses by the lair/orc timeframe. Still quite fragile for those first few floors of course, this wasn't my first attempt! :P

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Saturday, 20th February 2021, 03:45

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

If it's true that base damage is so overwhelmingly impactful as to completely overshadow enchantment level and brand, that's also a problem, both as a no-brainer and a clarity issue.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6450

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Saturday, 20th February 2021, 04:55

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Nekoatl wrote:If it's true that base damage is so overwhelmingly impactful as to completely overshadow enchantment level and brand, that's also a problem, both as a no-brainer and a clarity issue.

Base damage is multiplied by strength bonuses, fighting and weapon skill, enchantment is not (brand is either a multiple of a damage done, or not, depending on brand)

A bardiche is base damage 18, a halberd is 13, the 5 difference in base damage is equal to to perhaps 2-4x that in weapon enchantment bonuses, as such a +0 bardiche is very similar in damage to a +9 halberd if you have 26 in polearms and a decent fighting and strength score (note that the halberd will hit more often, as enchantment contributes to to-hit, which varies in importance)

I think "use a better weapon when it's available" has historically been exempt from the avoidance of "no brainer"s there's definitely a clarity issue there though (This particular thing has been explained a really large number of times).
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 323

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Saturday, 20th February 2021, 15:49

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

If I think about this a different way, it doesn't seem so bad. I normally take a character concept and try to find a way to make it work with whatever's available (and I couldn't change this, even if I wanted to), but the intended approach is for players to adapt their character concept to what they find, so if players are adapting how much they invest stats and skills based on which items they find, then these choices wouldn't be no brainers, at least for pre-extended gameplay.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2021, 06:03

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Here's a link to a reddit thread with 2 morgues of a "dex demigod" build: https://old.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... d_demigod/

Honestly I'm coming around to the change more and more over time, just for the increase in build diversity if nothing else. It probably is a significant player buff (rather than a niche player buff), but hey, you bastards took my regeneration spell so I'm okay with that :P

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2021, 07:45

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Attempted to make a very dodgy troll:

  Code:
Tasonir the Brawler (Troll Monk)                   Turns: 25228, Time: 01:09:46

Health: 183/183    AC: 17    Str: 39    XL:     18   Next: 64%
Magic:  23/23      EV: 33    Int: 21    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   221        SH: 15    Dex: 39    Spells: 18/24 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .     - Unarmed
rCold    . . .     Faith    .   X - +0 kite shield {reflect}
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   r - +4 troll leather armour {Purgy}
rPois    +         Reflect  +   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Harm     .   Q - +2 cloak {rPois}
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   (gloves unavailable)
Will     +....                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    +++.......             a - amulet of regeneration
HPRegen  3.40/turn              F - +6 ring of dexterity
MPRegen  0.18/turn              p - +4 ring of protection

   Skills:
 - Level 12.5 Fighting
 - Level 8.0 Throwing
 - Level 14.0 Dodging
 - Level 1.0 Stealth
 - Level 9.0 Shields
 - Level 18.0 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 3.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 4.6 Transmutations
 + Level 5.6 Earth Magic
 - Level 9.0 Invocations


This is just after picking up my second rune in shoals; it basically took this long to actually break 30 EV. Still pretty hard to make a dodgy troll; this is with a +6 dex ring and chei, with 14 dodging. I suppose I could hard commit and get dodging up to 20 or so, but I'm trying to get statue form online and I still think that's the generally best plan. I have been putting level ups into dex.

Edit: I feel like this thread is becoming "watch me get paralyzed over and over again on characters who depend on EV"...died in depths after getting paralyzed. I was wearing one MR ring, but apparently I should have been wearing two (I had two, just thought one would be enough).

  Code:
 31900 | Depths:1 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 4 turns
 31903 | Depths:1 | Slain by a stone giant


This one didn't take quite as many turns ;)
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 686

Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2021, 11:15

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

tasonir wrote:I feel like this thread is becoming "watch me get paralyzed over and over again on characters who depend on EV"...died in depths after getting paralyzed.


I think this is the problem with EV-builds in general - there are just too many things in the game that only need to catch you once when all your glorious EV goes to nothing, or that can even get you with all your glorious EV in full swing, such as LRD or portal projectile. Then you quickly realize how squishy you really are.
Maɟaŋ

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2021, 22:32

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I'd agree with that. Every defense in this game has something that is designed to counter it, but how *many* things bypass that defense isn't the same across defenses (for example, the only thing that "counters" maxHP is torment, and that's why maxHP is so strong). I don't mean that torment makes having more hp bad, just that it scales up its damage as well. You still get some benefit from higher hp, of course.

Anyways, my point was that dexterity has quite a few things which bypass it, like you mention, and that's reduced my "how OP is having 50 EV" view somewhat. It's still very, very good to have 50 EV, but you've got threats you need to watch for fairly often.

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 25th February 2021, 21:11

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

For one more character reference, I wanted to see how dodgy you could make a large species, so here's a troll:

From: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 033111.txt

  Code:
17975545 Tasonir the Intangible (level 27, 419/419 HPs)
             Began as a Troll Warper on Feb 24, 2021.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes on Feb 25, 2021!
             
             The game lasted 05:34:54 (86603 turns).

Tasonir the Intangible (Troll Warper)              Turns: 86603, Time: 05:34:56

Health: 419/419    AC: 45    Str: 39    XL:     27
Magic:  52/57      EV: 54    Int: 38    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   8854       SH: 38    Dex: 37    Spells: 20/70 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis +     - Unarmed
rCold    + . .     Faith    .   t - +13 tower shield of Fun and Games {*Slow rC+ MP+9 Int+4}
rNeg     + + +     Spirit   .   (armour currently unavailable)
rPois    ∞         Reflect  .   R - +0 hat "Feofe Pud" {rPois rF+ rN+ Str-3}
rElec    +         Harm     .   S - +2 cloak
rCorr    .         Rampage  .   (gloves unavailable)
Will     ++...                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    +.........             K - amulet "Xecwat Boli" {rElec Regen+ Int+6}
HPRegen  3.79/turn              w - ring of the Tortoise {AC+8}
MPRegen  0.35/turn              H - ring "Zuel" {rElec rN+ Int+3 Dex+5 SInv}

@: statue-form, studying 2 skills, very slow
A: large, unfitting armour, claws 3, hooves 1, mutation resistance 1,
regeneration 2, wild magic 1
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian,
icy, bone, abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark
a: End Transformation, Renounce Religion, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion,
Slouch, Step From Time

   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 - Level 12.0 Throwing
 - Level 5.0 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 - Level 15.0 Shields
 O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 22.2 Spellcasting
 - Level 12.0 Necromancy
 - Level 10.0 Translocations
 - Level 13.0 Transmutations
 - Level 15.0 Earth Magic
 - Level 15.0 Invocations


Yep, used a *slow shield to really lean into the theme...what, it was +13! Overall this character was hardly impacted by the EV change; most of the game I was still under the cutoffs for real reductions. Maybe a few points more dex counted, but it wasn't until roughly 3 runes/zot where I finally had the experience to really get my EV much above 30. I swapped rings around a lot so I wasn't always using that +5 dex ring, but wanted to show how you can get some good ev returns out of a dex ring when you've got the full 27 dodging.

The main effect getting to 40+ EV for extended is that tomb is easier. Which I kind of appreciate, after the removal of stairs made it quite difficult for a while (still is, but with higher ev and regen amulets, it helps).

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 12th March 2021, 04:55

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

I would like to point out that Chei skews the evasion values a lot. I took dex on every level up in this run:

https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 200829.txt

Obviously this was not a hard run regardless, since it was a berserker. But this is also a normal size species with literally maxed dodging training and no encumbrance whatsoever. 38 EV (with cloak of starlight) is still good, but this sum of defensive stats isn't going to set any records.

Also, when you're not running Chei, taking dex over alternatives on level up is costly. It will reduce your melee damage or spell power, since you are spending points on dex rather than str or int. If you're stacking modifiers on a small species that can kill a lot of stuff with god abilities, evos, or spells with high floors that trade can make sense. But it's not clear to me that I am significantly better off having gone dex rather than strength in this run, even on a species that can't wear armor.

Keep in mind people are attaining well over 60 AC with gargoyles (while still having some EV and such), and sometimes > 80. So I'm not convinced an armorless small species with even less health having a bit more EV than Gr gets EV is necessarily a problem. For most species/god choices, you are paying for that EV, and paying significantly more on many builds than you would for comparable AC (human in well enchanted armor can easily get > 50 AC).

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 24th March 2021, 08:36

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Does anyone know what the ominous sounding patch note "Dexterity and EV formulas are tweaked again." means? I tried scanning commits but I either missed it or it's older than 2 weeks at this point...

What's the latest formula?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5376

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 2nd April 2021, 02:40

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Finally dug far enough back into the commit history: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1 ... 984af5e499

As explained, players now get about 80% of the previous EV values, with a small static boost (I think this is just a flat +1 EV) so you don't get much less right at D:1.

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andrew

Blades Runner

Posts: 613

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Wednesday, 2nd June 2021, 06:37

Re: New EV function gameplay feedback/discussion

Confirming I still barely care at all about EV. It's an afterthought for spare experience I couldn't find any place else to spend, or I found a manual.

If you want EV to be worthwhile, I suggest the following ideas:

EV partially reduces ranged damage, or limits it in a similar fashion that AC limits damage with GDR.
EV partially reduces some types of elemental damage, such as fireballs - so maybe they still hit you, but a little less directly.
Get rid of player paralysis - what an annoying mechanic it is.. a stupid gear check for MR (uhh Willpower) and a killer of all builds not relying on heavy AC (which limits EV focused builds)

Maybe then, maybe, I might care more about EV (and Dex).

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