Make Kobolds the nightstalker species


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 678

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 18:38

Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

Kobolds are one of the weaker species in the game, which would be fine if they weren't also one of the least interesting. See this thread for a good comparison of kobold to deep elf. Kobold's gimmicks are relatively boring. Small size serves to restrict player weapon options in return for bonus EV... but Halflings are the same size as Kobolds, and Tengu also get an EV bonus at xl 5. Carnivore is not unique to Kobold and the pretense that it's important becomes more absurd with each passing version.

Moving nightstalker from a ds random mut to a guaranteed mut on some species might be desirable because the mutation is both powerful and, for some players, very annoying (it makes autoexplore take forever, for example). As a guaranteed mut, at least you know what you're getting upfront, and it's easier to directly balance the mutation against other aspects of the species design. Kobold seems like a reasonably thematic choice for nightstalker in addition to being a species in need of a better niche.

The specific proposal is as follows: Remove the demonspawn nightstalker facet and give Kobold one level of the nightstalker mutation at experience levels 1, 13, and 26. Kobold apts could be adjusted afterwards, if necessary, or the mutation xls could be tweaked if nightstalker at xl 1 is unreasonably good or xl 26 is too late for rank 3.

To replace the ds facet, I would suggest developing a "hexes facet" featuring some combination of 1) AF_VULN melee; 2) hexes enhancer; 3) radius 1 permanent silence donut, but a full discussion of ds mutations is out of scope in this thread. If there's interest, I'll make another topic.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 11
Aean, bt, byrel, Majang, Midn8, njvack, Octopode-monk-of-XOM, PseudoLoneWolf, sanka, shping and one more user

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 19:06

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

I think it's better to just give the full nightstalker effect at XL1. Concentrating power towards the late game is not something the game needs more of.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
petercordia, shping

Halls Hopper

Posts: 66

Joined: Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 21:44

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 19:08

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

they could also be "mut-prone", with pemanent Evolve, or they get double effect from mut pots, etc

also, please get in my silence donut
Yiufcrawl, a dcss fork with extra species
Pu, LO, HE, SE, "MD", Im, ST, BK, viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23209

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1508

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 19:16

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

I like the idea (and would be happy to implement it if there's dev interest.) Suggestion on XL thresholds: I think XL26 is a bit too late for the final version of this. It's not too hard to win the game prior to XL26, and even if you don't you're only getting to experience their final form for a small part of the game. I'd aim for getting it around the time people enter Depths (since that's about the start of the DCSS endgame.)

Median Depths-enter XL on Ko in recent games is XL 23.
Mean is XL 22.62.

I'd suggest moving NS 3 to XL23.
Usual account: pblur on kelbi
User avatar

Zot Zealot

Posts: 982

Joined: Monday, 29th September 2014, 09:04

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 22:07

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

I'm assuming this thread is in response to the pull request proposing the same, which seems like it will get some dev attention after 0.25 comes out:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1329

For this message the author chequers has received thanks: 2
Hellmonk, Octopode-monk-of-XOM

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 899

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 22:56

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

The only reason I can see to delay giving the full mutation at the start is that +150 stealth is very strong at the start of a game, but it'd probably be ok if a species was strong at the start of a game (see eg gnolls, vampires). Certainly I would prefer to get the full night stalker effect by lair.
Also, please don't remove the DS nightstalker mutation. It's one of the more interesting mutations to get :)

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
Majang

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 678

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Tuesday, 19th May 2020, 23:03

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

Wasn't aware that there was a pr already. Neat.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks:
shping

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 15

Joined: Tuesday, 25th December 2018, 06:20

Post Monday, 8th June 2020, 17:17

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

Nightstalker would definitely make kobolds more interesting. Foul stench and to a lesser extent thin skeletal structure would also make sense, but clearly not full ranks of both. Kobolds are tied to foul stenches, and it is possible the -1 los and +50 camo may be too powerful at level one. Also theme and lore wise kobolds are more tied to being smelly and thin than being nightstalkers or tied to the shadows.

At level 1 provide foul stench 1 and thin skeletal structure. Keep the mutation scaling for foul stench only. Foul stench alone is probably not too strong to be added in addition to nightstalker if it is kept at level 1 instead.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 00:52

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2020, 02:26

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

We could just remove the stealth bonus from nightstalker and give DS a new mut if we're making kobolds the nightstalker race.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 40

Joined: Saturday, 27th May 2017, 22:47

Post Tuesday, 16th June 2020, 20:42

Re: Make Kobolds the nightstalker species

New unique: Bob the Bold
In Ziggurat:27 born and raised, on the Zot stairs where I spent most of my days chilling out maxing, relaxing all cool and all shooting some b-breath outside of lungs. When a couple CK - they were up to no good - started makin trouble in my neighbourhood!

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.