Spiketaur


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 14:22

Spiketaur

Give centaurs (&& / ||) yaktaurs spikes. Currently the no-brain way to deal with them is to close ASAP, even with pure casters, then they're harmless and can be killed even with a +2 branded dagger.
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

Blades Runner

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Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 17:00

Re: Spiketaur

Early game centaurs can easily 1v1 you to death in melee even if you're at full health, and it's not like you can run from them.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 18:11

Re: Spiketaur

Seriously?

I've pricked 'em with branded daggers early game as a DEWi...
Granted, I had some AC those times.
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:02

Re: Spiketaur

They hit 10+weapon. If you have 20-50 health you can just straight up lose if you roll poorly on early floors like ~D:4. The odds of this reduce dramatically as you go further, but so does the threat from "spike" taurs.

There are lots of monsters where you want to close the distance ASAP. Orc wizards/priests and other spellcasters, anything with damnation/torment/etc, anything with ranged attacks. The reason you want to close distance is at minimum the monster has a chance to hit you with an attack that is weaker than its ranged options (IE orc priest choosing melee over smite). Early on centaurs are actually somewhat more threatening than a lot of these monsters, because unlike most of them centaurs outspeed most player species so you can't just walk away for free.

They don't all need spikes/melee offsets. It's not obvious why centaurs need them in particular either, beyond whatever weapon they're holding for melee.
Last edited by TheMeInTeam on Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:19, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:08

Re: Spiketaur

TheMeInTeam wrote:The reason you want to close distance is at minimum the monster has a chance to hit you with an attack that is weaker than its ranged options (IE orc priest choosing melee over smite).
This isn't true. The chance of an orc priest smiting is the same whether you're next to it or not. Same for monsters using almost any other spell. The only time this will help you against spells is when the spell is something that would damage the monster if you're adjacent (such as fireball from a monster without rF+++), in which case it can slightly reduce the chance of them casting it.
Last edited by duvessa on Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:08

Re: Spiketaur

I've been kicked to death by centaurs too

Often with octopodes and other low-ac species. It doesn't help that I'm often at low hp when I'm finally adjacent (because they nail me with arrows first)

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2020, 19:22

Re: Spiketaur

duvessa wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:The reason you want to close distance is at minimum the monster has a chance to hit you with an attack that is weaker than its ranged options (IE orc priest choosing melee over smite).
This isn't true. The chance of an orc priest smiting is the same whether you're next to it or not. Same for monsters using almost any other spell. The only time this will help you against spells is when the spell is something that would damage the monster if you're adjacent (such as fireball from a monster without rF+++), in which case it can slightly reduce the chance of them casting it.


Hmm, you're right. I wasn't considering their "move forward" possibility when thinking about their RNG pick of action. Based on what you're saying that is identical to their chance of picking melee.

This doesn't change the player's tactics much unless they have a superior ranged option to melee option of their own, usually you'll want to break LoS/otherwise get them close so that you remove their damage potential. But think I see where I screwed up above.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 7th February 2020, 02:26

Re: Spiketaur

In a large percentage of the games I play, the most inconvenient thing I see is an early centaur.

You can’t run away from them and you get peppered with arrows as you approach them. Dealing with them before D:10 or so always requires caution, lest you charge them and walk into a pack of nasties.

IMHO centaurs are the last monster in the game that need a buff!


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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 7th February 2020, 02:33

Re: Spiketaur

duvessa wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:The reason you want to close distance is at minimum the monster has a chance to hit you with an attack that is weaker than its ranged options (IE orc priest choosing melee over smite).
This isn't true. The chance of an orc priest smiting is the same whether you're next to it or not. Same for monsters using almost any other spell. The only time this will help you against spells is when the spell is something that would damage the monster if you're adjacent (such as fireball from a monster without rF+++), in which case it can slightly reduce the chance of them casting it.


That’s interesting. I always assumed it worked something like:

Pick next action(im completely making up these options)
Smite
Haste
Go invis
Melee attack
Use wand
Move closer

I assumed there would be some weighting to that decision process to pick the next action. If a melee attack is not possible, would that not increase the chances of all the other options occurring? (Thus supporting the argument that a priest is less likely to smite you if you stand next to him since he might choose to punch you instead; because he can)


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Zot Zealot

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Joined: Monday, 29th September 2014, 09:04

Post Friday, 7th February 2020, 02:52

Re: Spiketaur

Monster AI is a little more convoluted than that. In the case of a monster with spells (and no items), the monster will first decide if it's casting a spell, and if so which spell. It will continue to normal AI if it decides not to cast a spell or if the spell it picked to cast is invalid (eg fireball at point blank range, no ally to haste other).

@OP: I think it's good that centaurs & yaktaurs have an obvious counterplay. If they did equal damage at any range you could instead just make them not change to melee weapons ever (eg give them the archer monster tag).

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