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New charm magic system

PostPosted: Monday, 30th December 2019, 17:29
by sdynet
I saw a 0.25 development plan of charm.

Deflect Missiles was left as is after the removal of RMsl with the hopes of a coming charms revision. That was a while ago, in the interleaving time several forks have experimented with a variety of "permabuff" systems. These reduce MaxMP to have a charm on, which possibly drains MP when the effect happens; spell failure and power are factored in when the spell effect happens somehow. Ultimately, these begin to feel much more like items. This points me (ebering) in a direction: remove the remaining charms that pose "tedious optimal" issues, and re-introduce them as scarves.

This idea will need more fleshing out before development work begins. Some ideas:
* Scarf effects scale on trained Charms skill, Trog hates these scarves (this sort of approach has been tried on the staff of battle, where it seems to work well).
*Instead, the Charms school is removed outright, the dual-school spells that are worthy of remaining are either increased in level or given another school. Probably this means removing or seriously revising Skald.

I had originally supported the Hellcrawl charm system, but I found that the system was less likely to be adopted, so I will make a new proposal according to the development plan. Before making the proposal, I guessed why the development team was trying to change Charm.
tedious optimal - Charm is useful and not difficult to use, so you can benefit greatly from a short period of annoying switching act. Even if you feel bored and tired of this act, this act is advantageous to survival and score, so you will do it if you want to win. A prime example of this was Repel Missiles. It was too effective compared to a very low level, and it was a spell that must be used unconditionally even if you take the trouble to win. This act is obviously useful to do than to don't it. In other words, there is no tactical thinking. In other words, I guess the purpose of the change is to block 'tired but necessary measures'.

Perhaps the development team has determined that the it is not acceptable because only the Hellcrawl's system operates in a completely different way than other magic systems, which could complicate the game.

With these two things in mind, I will give my opinion.
Now, Charm spell cannot be cast by the player himself. A new function is added to the guardian spirit scarf(and amulet). When equipped with a guardian spirit, the player auto-casts the cham spell they learned one by one every turn when an enemy enters the LoS(Each cast consumes mp as spell level). Auto-cast are cast when the probability of failure is slightly dangerous or safe. Check the probability of success when cast, and check if the probability exceeds 'slightly dangerous' for each turn. Spell of excess probability will be cancelled immediately. For example, if a warrior used a wizard ring to reduce the probability of failure of the Deflect Missiles below 10%, the spell will be retained while ring is worn. However, after the spell is cast, the spell is immediately cancelled if the failure probability exceeds the 'slightly dangerous' by replacing the ring.

It also adds another function to the guardian spirit. It is 'Evoke Tuning'. With this ability, the player can individually turn on/off the charm spell to be auto-cast. This ability cannot be used when an enemy is in LoS. For example, if you set 'Song of Slaying' to off, when you do auto-cast, SoS will not cast. Trog will deactivate this ability, and good gods will erase evil spell from the tuning selection list.

Auto-cast does not stop until the player has used up all the spells they learned and tuning, and if the enemy is visible and MP remains, it will be cast again at the end of the spell's duration.

Then add the duration to Deflect Missiles. This spell does not last until all the resources are exhausted, as it is now, but vanishes after a certain duration. Like other charm spells. Regeneration spell must kill an enemy to change the speed of regeneration to increase. I realized that this was the only way to stop the player from carrying around a weak enemy and maintaining they regen spell when taking a rest. In this case, 'tedious optimal act' is blocked at almost. Taking off the armor and putting the wizard ring to reduce the possibility of magic failure is no use. The spell will be canceled immediately if the probability of failure increases.

You can carry weak enemies and try to keep the buff, but this is a loss. Every spell has a duration and will be cast again each time it ends. regen only begins by killing the enemy, so the act is meaningless. Since this is not permanent, SoS will restart at zero after the duration. There is one thing that this method has not prevented. It's an act to get all the buffs through weak enemies, then down the stairs. This act can be blocked by resetting the buff when climbing up and down stairs, but I'm afraid it might be a bit harsh. If this is even included, 'tedious optimal act' is blocked at source.

Also, since these functions were included in the Guardian Spirit, Charm spell is no longer an obvious benefit.
1. You should give up the chance to wear another scarf or amulet to use this.
2. It is impossible to cast the spell by switching item and then change it to another item. If you want to use an spell, you must train your skills very high or keep wearing a wizard ring during battle.
3. Mana Shield effect and the use of the spell will consume MP very quickly. It takes a long time to take off the equipment, and tuning is not available if the enemy is in LoS, so you can't easily stop consuming MP. That much makes it difficult for you to use God's power or magic.
Now players will have to ponder whether using Charm spell is a really good choice.

This method also does not touch the magic system. Just as Necromancy asks for the corpse, charm asks for a specific item. That's all.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Monday, 30th December 2019, 18:25
by tealizard
I am somewhat unclear on what's being proposed here, but I am continually baffled that this issue, which has been under discussion for many years, remains largely unaddressed and with major confusion even in basic formulation of the problem. It's not about charms, it's about all spells with an effect duration on the order of an encounter or longer (so including summons, but not orb of destruction for example). There are something like 150 spell effects in this game. There is no way to make that number of reasonably distinct spells all work with the same casting mechanics and get satisfying results.* This should be obvious, fundamental to any future reform.

As far as moving the effects into items (scarves), items are bad. You fix the connection between spells and items with the book reform, then you start backtracking by adding new spell-items. Come on, folks.

The hellcrawl permacharm system handles all problems with basic dcss duration spells (and a couple of summon-like ones) that are on the current design radar, from recasting to equipment swapping to temporary status effects that impact failrate, e.g. potions, transient mutations, etc. It's not complicated and it works. It results in clean, fluid play. Adding a new swappable, stashable class of items to screw around with does not. It is only a marginal improvement over a broken system that will almost surely continue to foster dozens of problem spells. No one has a better idea than the hellcrawl system.

*: Minimally, the particular set of 150 odd spells that exists does not produce satisfying results from a gameplay perspective, largely because of the unnecessary uniformity of casting mechanics across spells having very different effects. Elegance and simplicity are only virtues in things that actually work.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Monday, 6th January 2020, 13:57
by Lacuenta

MP: it is not a good resource:(in crawl)
-It's de facto unlimited (only limited by food and time)

Because of this characteristic there is no real downside in using charms, since your mp will never run out, just press 5 for more. You wil very rarely hit a situation in which you have to make a strategic decision between using your mp for a charm or fireball.


Spelllearning is not working logically (any mage can find/learn any spell)

Even though that doesnt equate to being able to cast them, it does make it easy to just learn that charm and drop some points in the school whenever you have time.


Charms as a school is being encroached by other schools.

As the basic "pumpspell" school, charms is missing some basic pumpspells. It should work best with melee+magic hero, but since there's no real affinity with these type of characters in a basic way, and schools like summoning are actually beter at pumping your hero then charms, charms school is currently reduced to mostly defensive spells, which work best with mages.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Wednesday, 15th January 2020, 22:49
by b0rsuk
Because they stick to you and last quite long, charms are practically like cheap stat/skill upgrades. Of course everyone wants more stats. Maybe if they came with meaningful downsides, like Repel Missiles protecting against missiles but making you take more damage in melee. But that would just reduce it to a Conjurer/Summoner tool.

How about...
Repel Missiles - protects you against missiles and ranged spells, but reduces your range of sight to 4 for you only. Monsters can still see you even if you can't see them.

With a downside like this, even melee hybrids might hesitate to cast it because they won't know what will come out from the dark. Conjurers would have to fire blindly until 'they feel more experienced'.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Thursday, 16th January 2020, 22:13
by Shtopit
I like the idea of Charms as a skill that makes equippables stronger. Give bonuses to slaying, armour enchant, rings of stats, amulets of reflection, also a bonus to rings of magical power and the amulet of HP and acrobat.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Saturday, 18th January 2020, 17:11
by b0rsuk
Shtopit wrote:I like the idea of Charms as a skill that makes equippables stronger. Give bonuses to slaying, armour enchant, rings of stats, amulets of reflection, also a bonus to rings of magical power and the amulet of HP and acrobat.

I'm not surprised. So many stats with a single skill. Meanwhile you need to train Shields, Armour, and weapons separately.

Re: New charm magic system

PostPosted: Sunday, 19th January 2020, 15:26
by Shtopit
b0rsuk wrote:
Shtopit wrote:I like the idea of Charms as a skill that makes equippables stronger. Give bonuses to slaying, armour enchant, rings of stats, amulets of reflection, also a bonus to rings of magical power and the amulet of HP and acrobat.

I'm not surprised. So many stats with a single skill. Meanwhile you need to train Shields, Armour, and weapons separately.

I think it could be good for the warrior-mage archetipe. It would allow the creation of a more rounded character that still wouldn't be as good at the single disciplines as a specialist (like a fighter).