Food suggestion


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 14th October 2019, 20:15

Food suggestion

I don't think there's any longer a reason for food to take up two slots of every character's inventory. Food rations have been standardized, and even blood potions are gone. Rations and chunks could now simply be tracked as a character stat, like gold or hunger.

The (e)at menu could be standardized to offer (c)hunks and (r)ations. For that matter it could be streamlined even further—I think Ghouls are the only characters in 0.24 that would ever choose to eat rations if chunks are available. Other characters would be happy to (e)at a chunk automatically with no further input. (If they're out of chunks, they might appreciate a prompt like "No chunks available; eat a ration y/n/e?")

Do others agree this would be a positive change? I'd be happy to take a shot at coding it, although I proably won't have time for a month or so at least.

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Post Monday, 14th October 2019, 20:33

Re: Food suggestion

I'd appreciate it :)

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Post Monday, 14th October 2019, 22:10

Re: Food suggestion

“Goldifying” food would be a welcome change, especially now that Fedhas no longer uses rations. There is a question of the best place to display the two numbers (rations and chunks) but that can be worked out as a part of the development process. Have at it!

Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 14th October 2019, 23:47

Re: Food suggestion

ebering wrote:“Goldifying” food would be a welcome change, especially now that Fedhas no longer uses rations. There is a question of the best place to display the two numbers (rations and chunks) but that can be worked out as a part of the development process. Have at it!
Yeah, I'm currently thinking of displaying it on the % screen. Could put it at the top of (i)nventory but that's a weird special case. Could put it on the main screen but I don't think it's worth the space. (We've done all right until now, and even the % screen makes the information more accessible than before.)

Anyway I'll separately commit the back end changes, the display, and the (e) menu, so tweaking or reverting those decisions is as easy as can be.

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Post Tuesday, 15th October 2019, 00:21

Re: Food suggestion

Putting it atop the inventory has an advantage: in Tiles, you can see your inventory without opening it. So it would be visible without using %. It's why I think it would be useful if gold also figured in the inventory.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 15th October 2019, 15:17

Re: Food suggestion

Good point about tiles. (Are the quantities legible on the tiles interface? I seem to recall not, but maybe I was playing at a weird resolution of something.)

Would there be space to display it next to the hunger level, e.g. "Very Hungry (23|3)"? The numbers could turn green or red for one turn whenever they increase or decrease. Players will typically look at their hunger level before and after they eat, so they ought to notice the colors changing, and figure out what's going on.

(edit: Then again, future changes to the food system could become difficult without allotting more space in the interface.)
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Post Tuesday, 15th October 2019, 15:53

Re: Food suggestion

I can see how many stones I have, so yes, it shows quantities.
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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 16:35

Re: Food suggestion

Anything that alleviates inventory management is a step forward in my book.
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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 19:17

Re: Food suggestion

Not like I'm likely to play a game of dcss again, but you all really owe it to yourselves to leave food behind entirely. Crawl without food is so much better it's ridiculous. It is crazy that people are still talking about this in 2019.
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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 20:03

Re: Food suggestion

^ As someone who has played mummy more than any other species, I'm inclined to agree. It feels so nice not having to bother with it.

In many hundreds of games otherwise, I've only had food be an issue twice:

- Got a little too Oklob happy in Zot:5, and had to go back and buy a few rations https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 022757.txt --> still finished with > 20. After the Fedhas rework this isn't even possible.

- DDEE of Elyvilon http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 050718.txt --> Ely's heal abilities cost a lot of hunger. I used acquirement for food in this game, twice. Note that this was a cosplay challenge which forced extra conducts on me...this would never have happened in normal play!

In 668 other games food has proven to do nothing but take up 1-2 inventory slots and be the occasional nuisance. Never had a shortage or significant decisions made concerning it.

Goldifying it is attractive, because it would remove most of the frustration (inventory management). But there's a reasonable case for removing it entirely. Even the counterargument about scumming doesn't hold; right now scumming abyss and pandemonium are both food-positive and other non-hell branches run out of rations + monsters. Is dis-incentivizing high-level spells in the early-mid game worth its continued inclusion, considering even that is largely handled by chunk micro?

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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 20:27

Re: Food suggestion

As someone who has played mummy more than any other species, being able to use millions of turns is bad actually. There needs to be something pushing the player forward, and unless you massively restructure the game, it's going to look a lot like food (a gradually increasing turn limit). Chunks should be removed immediately though.

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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 20:58

Re: Food suggestion

duvessa wrote:As someone who has played mummy more than any other species, being able to use millions of turns is bad actually. There needs to be something pushing the player forward, and unless you massively restructure the game, it's going to look a lot like food (a gradually increasing turn limit). Chunks should be removed immediately though.


In the current version of crawl, any species in the game can spend millions of turns if desired (or however long until the game just makes you lose by default), then walk out with the orb and hundreds of rations. It is not a property unique to mummies. The only thing unique to mummies about food is that they don't have to deal with the inventory hassle.

Yet players rarely do this, and it's debatable how "optimal" it is.
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Post Friday, 18th October 2019, 22:10

Re: Food suggestion

If you removed chunks and all hunger costs, made rations provide like 10 times the amount of nutrition they do now, and made rations spawn at 1/10th the rate, food would still be bad and mostly pointless, but at least it wouldn't continuously interrupt the game. You would also still have all existing problems with mummies.

The wait-a-million-turns argument, while not wrong, conceives the problem of camping and luring so narrowly that you can never make any real progress. You can only wring your hands about removing food. Waiting 5000 turns is already unacceptable and completely out of reach of any food-like mechanic that could ever enter dcss.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 15:34

Re: Food suggestion

If you removed chunks and all hunger costs, made rations provide like 10 times the amount of nutrition they do now, and made rations spawn at 1/10th the rate, food would still be bad and mostly pointless, but at least it wouldn't continuously interrupt the game. You would also still have all existing problems with mummies.


There are no legitimate "problems" existing for mummies wrt to food that don't also exist for every other species in crawl. Literally every species can infinite scum to the same extent as mummies. It's more annoying to do it, especially for ghouls, trolls, and vampires, but you can.

The only possible exception is mummy chaos knights confusing themselves so Xom doesn't get BORED, to scum for items. On the face of it a mummy of Xom is so obviously suboptimal that access to scumming earlier than other species isn't worth the danger + lack of actually picking a useful god.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 16:21

Re: Food suggestion

Going to have to disagree with you on that one. There's no question that the most naive forms of camping take a huge number of turns, more than you can support with chunks and rations under normal food mechanics. What is true is that there are other tactics that are not very different in their effect and spirit, but that are somewhat more interactive on the player's end and 10 or 100x faster in game time. The sophisticated waitscumming take is not that waitscumming doesn't work, it's that there are other tactics that are nearly as effective and take far less time, so much less that you can't control them with a "food clock" compatible with other crawl mechanics (e.g. persistent dungeon levels with shops and items) and the general user experience of the game (which sucks overall, but that's a bigger issue).

I've probably said it before, but what you really need to do to deal with these issues is introduce a level clock and a formal concept of "dead levels." If you want to make it nice and tight, I would set a starting clock value of a few hundred and a max clock value based on the walkable area and population of the level so that as you explore your clock value increases to the maximum value and when the time on level meets the clock value, bad things happen. A dead level is one that has been "cleared." Here rules would need to be devised to make sense of that concept so that it agrees reasonably well with normal practice and avoids silliness like reexploring levels to find stragglers. A condition that allows you to finish off remaining monsters by using a dungeon feature or something would fit well here. Clock rules would not apply on dead levels, so you don't have to worry about triggering them while autotraveling to pick up items or go to shops (obviously, it would be better if that kind of backtracking just never happened, but that's another story). This kind of thing could actually address camping and luring in a serious way. In my opinion, something substantially similar to this is the only way to go given commitments to free range levels and backtracking.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 16:28

Re: Food suggestion

TheMeInTeam wrote:
If you removed chunks and all hunger costs, made rations provide like 10 times the amount of nutrition they do now, and made rations spawn at 1/10th the rate, food would still be bad and mostly pointless, but at least it wouldn't continuously interrupt the game. You would also still have all existing problems with mummies.


There are no legitimate "problems" existing for mummies wrt to food that don't also exist for every other species in crawl. Literally every species can infinite scum to the same extent as mummies. It's more annoying to do it, especially for ghouls, trolls, and vampires, but you can.

The only possible exception is mummy chaos knights confusing themselves so Xom doesn't get BORED, to scum for items. On the face of it a mummy of Xom is so obviously suboptimal that access to scumming earlier than other species isn't worth the danger + lack of actually picking a useful god.


The problem with mummys is that they can wait forever *without going anywhere* making anywhere that has a staircase 100% safe, if there's a problem of any sort, just wait 100000 turns at it will walk away, encounter another problem, go upstairs and wait another 100000 turns, do it a few times if something sticks around when you don't want it to. What's more they can do this *at the game start* before they have access to infinite items, or even any number of consumables that they could use to escape trouble if they got into it. Doing so in the part of the game before you can scum for infinite items means the challenge is completely gone from what's usually one of the most challenging part of the game, provided you're willing to trade challenge for infinite patience.

You could argue that this is a problem with staircases and backtracking generally, but as long as you can escape from combat by going upstairs, unlimited waiting is probably not a good thing.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 16:33

Re: Food suggestion

The problem with waitscumming is not merely that it's "safe." The real problem is that it allows the player to decline to interact with the dungeon as (presumably) intended. This is true with or without stairs and it's not unique to waitscumming.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 16:38

Re: Food suggestion

tealizard wrote:The problem with waitscumming is not merely that it's "safe." The real problem is that it allows the player to decline to interact with the dungeon as (presumably) intended. This is true with or without stairs and it's not unique to waitscumming.

Well, I mean what does that mean exactly? I can sit around on D:1 and not interact with it by waiting for an unlimited number of turns without doing anything, but I don't consider that abuse or a problem because it doesn't increase your odds of winning. Any game which involves free player choice opens up the possibility of tedious actions (I can walk around in a circle indefinitely on D:1, which is tedious, but is it a *problem*?) the threshold for me is if it's both tedious *and increase your chances of winning*

Maybe you have a case in mind I'm not thinking of, what example of declining to interact with the dungeon that causes a problem (in the sense of increasing your win chances) that doesn't involve stairs are you thinking of?
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 17:31

Re: Food suggestion

Declining to interact with the dungeon as intended takes many forms, with simply not exploring and trying to bring monsters to you through Brownian motion being an extreme form of it. Patrolling a small part of the dungeon and encountering a trickle of monsters, again via Brownian motion, is a similar story. Luring monsters to the same or similar terrain for every fight subverts dungeon generation in a different way to similar effect.

Now of course, the intention of dungeon generation is not clear. Why are there spiral vaults and other picture vaults whose existence can only be justified by some kind of visual aesthetic divorced from gameplay? Why are there rooms that are always directly adjoined to halls, so that you would never fight in them? Could just generate monsters and items in a system of halls. For that matter, you could just have a fifteen tile length of hallway and drop monsters and items in it over time to achieve similar gameplay. Clearly we can't develop a useful picture of intent by inference from what's already there.

I can only say what the intention of dungeon generation should be: To create varied tactical play. Anything that allows the player to neutralize the impact of random terrain generation and monster placement on tactical play subverts dungeon generation. That is what timers and so on are there to control. Or rather, that's what they should be there to control and that's what they should do. (Obviously they do not do that and never have and no one could seriously believe that was what they were designed to, but originally this game was completely unplayable and to some degree remains so, hence the need to reevaluate these things.)
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 18:58

Re: Food suggestion

The problem with mummys is that they can wait forever *without going anywhere* making anywhere that has a staircase 100% safe, if there's a problem of any sort, just wait 100000 turns at it will walk away, encounter another problem, go upstairs and wait another 100000 turns, do it a few times if something sticks around when you don't want it to. What's more they can do this *at the game start* before they have access to infinite items, or even any number of consumables that they could use to escape trouble if they got into it. Doing so in the part of the game before you can scum for infinite items means the challenge is completely gone from what's usually one of the most challenging part of the game, provided you're willing to trade challenge for infinite patience.


Quoted is disjointed from the reality of crawl on multiple counts:

- There is stuff you can't get away from and will follow you upstairs. If you wait 10000 turns or even 100 turns, you die.
- The moment you follow a god, waiting huge periods of time will tank your piety. Wait long enough and it will get you wrath.
- Not following a god as a mummy (or in general as non-Dg) is a really bad idea if you're actually trying to win the game, so that alternative is not attractive.
- No amount of this optional waiting can move mummies into even the top half of potential species choices in DCSS, if you're just trying to win.
- Going down a staircase and then immediately going back up the staircase can, and sometimes will, kill you. Even early game, and more so as the game goes on.

The problem with waitscumming is not merely that it's "safe." The real problem is that it allows the player to decline to interact with the dungeon as (presumably) intended. This is true with or without stairs and it's not unique to waitscumming.


"Intent" seems to be an awfully slippery thing when it comes to pinning coherent standards down in advance of implementing anything with "intent". For example, everything about DCSS's design screams "you should lure monsters whenever possible". Noise won't attract more problems, it's safer and more consistent, and prevents unexpected extras that threaten life/consumables. It's a natural conclusion of playing the game by the rules, at all. It's also allegedly a problem...but then so were things that let the player get by more safely w/o doing it, for other reasons.

Post Today, 17:31
Declining to interact with the dungeon as intended takes many forms, with simply not exploring and trying to bring monsters to you through Brownian motion being an extreme form of it. Patrolling a small part of the dungeon and encountering a trickle of monsters, again via Brownian motion, is a similar story. Luring monsters to the same or similar terrain for every fight subverts dungeon generation in a different way to similar effect.


No.

The logical extreme of quoted position is that players should always tab towards monsters like brainlets holding an obsidian axe in their minds.

On the other hand, you have mechanics like "lots of stuff attacking you at the same time will do more damage" and "noise attracts enemies to your position". Deliberately exposing yourself to danger by ignoring useful mechanics like positioning yourself and limiting number of things beating on you is not consistent with reasonable play in crawl based on its stated rules. You don't need "Brownian motion", you just hold shift and explore with the stair escape as a central location of safety, pitch stones at stuff to pull them to you, and kill them in explored areas. If this wasn't "intended" the sheer design/implementation of nearly everything in crawl is wrong, including the basic option of player movement as it is right now.

And that will still hold true if you delete the upstair, because of how noise and monster wandering works. It's why you clear a safe area and work out from there when shafted and not already near stairs...still luring monsters back even w/o being able to go up.

I can only say what the intention of dungeon generation should be: To create varied tactical play. Anything that allows the player to neutralize the impact of random terrain generation and monster placement on tactical play subverts dungeon generation.


Recognizing and neutralizing adverse impacts of where you are fighting IS part of "tactical play". A crucial part of the reason less than 1% of games result in wins is that players fail to adequately consider their surroundings in the dungeon, including terrain.

Food does almost nothing to alter this consideration, BTW.

but originally this game was completely unplayable and to some degree remains so, hence the need to reevaluate these things.


That's a rather strong claim, as you are advocating for what amounts to an entirely different game. Constraining one of the player's most important survival tools, that rookies/intermediate players *routinely fail*, in a game where the winrate is sub-1% and the median player has never won, strikes me as an odd design choice in its own right. I question how that would make it "more playable" to most people who actually play crawl.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:07

Re: Food suggestion

tealizard wrote:I can only say what the intention of dungeon generation should be: To create varied tactical play. Anything that allows the player to neutralize the impact of random terrain generation and monster placement on tactical play subverts dungeon generation.

What is "tactical play" if not subverting negative terrain and monster placement and taking advantage of positive ones?
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:18

Re: Food suggestion

@TheMeInTeam: There's a former dev who had a word for what you're doing: "playerthink." I don't care that people who've played ten games of dcss haven't beaten it and neither should you.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:23

Re: Food suggestion

TheMeInTeam wrote:
Quoted is disjointed from the reality of crawl on multiple counts:

- There is stuff you can't get away from and will follow you upstairs. If you wait 10000 turns or even 100 turns, you die.
- The moment you follow a god, waiting huge periods of time will tank your piety. Wait long enough and it will get you wrath.
- Not following a god as a mummy (or in general as non-Dg) is a really bad idea if you're actually trying to win the game, so that alternative is not attractive.
- No amount of this optional waiting can move mummies into even the top half of potential species choices in DCSS, if you're just trying to win.
- Going down a staircase and then immediately going back up the staircase can, and sometimes will, kill you. Even early game, and more so as the game goes on.

If something is not adjacent to you when you start to ascend, it can never follow you upstairs, if you recognize something you can't beat that's not currently adjacent to you, go upstairs, wait 100000 turns, it will be gone, the likelihood that it will still be there is abysmally small, this functionally lets you avoid any combat that's difficult without any loss of positional advantage given by foreknowledge of the level you're descending to (Which is the normal price paid by going down a different staircase, or say, using teleportation)

Not all gods have piety decay (one of the best does not), and this doesn't make a difference when talking about the part of the game prior to worshipping a god (which is the part which is typically referred to as the hardest)

It's true, that mummies are terrible, and the horrible "no food stupid waiting thing" is not enough to make them better than other species. I wasn't trying to make the case that they were, only that having no food makes this strategy possible, and employing it is better than not employing it when it's available (when you don't need food and aren't currently worshipping a god with piety decay), The point I was making is "I think we should make this not a thing if we're going to start removing food from other species" not "everybody should play mummies, and play them in this horrible way because it's the winningest"

Of course going down and back up a staircase can kill you, it can kill you whether you wait a long time or not. However, waiting a long time before you descend (provided there was anything challenging in view when you went up) reduces the chances of it happening (and/or reduces the chances that you'll need to use a consumable to prevent it) And of course you can choose not to go back up if it still has a likelihood of killing you (whether you waited a long time or not). I'm just saying that "if you can do something that requires a lot of really boring, no-risk activity, that improves your chances of not dying, it's a bad thing"
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:34

Re: Food suggestion

tealizard wrote:@TheMeInTeam: There's a former dev who had a word for what you're doing: "playerthink." I don't care that people who've played ten games of dcss haven't beaten it and neither should you.


There are people who have played *hundreds* of games of DCSS and never beaten it. If you want new people in the game and the game to grow, constraining otherwise useful/interesting decisions with the effect of making winrate lower in this context isn't a great idea.

That said, "people struggle to win" is only a small piece of my refutation. Do you care to address the other parts, or are those supposedly "playerthink" too? I anticipate most devs would prefer to use coherent standards when applying things to their game for example, but maybe I'm mistaken.

If something is not adjacent to you when you start to ascend, it can never follow you upstairs, if you recognize something you can't beat, go upstairs, wait 100000 turns, it will be gone, the likelihood that it will still be there is abysmally small, this functionally lets you avoid any combat that's difficult without any loss of positional advantage given by foreknowledge of the level you're descending to (Which is the normal price paid by going down a different staircase, or say, using teleportation)


In practice, other things can wander near the stairs. Not only might something be immediately adjacent to stairs, but things that can shoot, throw, or cast spells at you can kill you even if they're not adjacent. It's not a panacea and there are plenty of scenarios where you can (and should) resolve the issue safely before going upstairs because doing so improves your odds of living.

There's also the option of picking a different stair.

It's true, that mummies are terrible, and the horrible "no food stupid waiting thing" is not enough to make them better than other species. I wasn't trying to make the case that they were, only that having no food makes this strategy possible, and employing it is better than not employing it when it's available


The benefits conferred from doing this are marginal and don't capture any of the scenarios that are most likely to kill you, mummy or otherwise (OOD bees, centaurs, gargoyles, orc priests, getting hexed by uniques, etc). Do you even have quantified odds of "waiting 100000 turns next to stair that had an orc warrior" vs "immediately picking a different downstair" in terms of expected survival rate? Other stair might have bad stuff, but current stair also might have bad stuff wandering to it. I've been killed by stuff that was at a downstair that wasn't even in LoS/known to be on the level previously.

If I back out of a fight with D:3 ogre and pick a different down stair, what are the odds I again encounter that ogre, compared to if I wait 10k turns and go back down original stairs? I'd estimate them pretty similar. Is that wrong?

I'm just saying that "if you can do something that requires a lot of really boring, no-risk activity, that improves your chances of not dying, it's a bad thing"


That works as a general rule, but food appears to have very little impact on winrate compared to things that take significantly more IRL time than waiting at the stairs (holding down a key to advance time will advance it very rapidly in real-life terms). In most games the described scenario won't even come to pass (you will have safe downstair alternatives and won't need to wait to get rid of something even once before following a god).
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Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:53

Re: Food suggestion

TheMeInTeam wrote:There are people who have played *hundreds* of games of DCSS and never beaten it.


Your advocacy for this underserved community is admirable. I hope it brings greater awareness in the nonprofit sector.

TheMeInTeam wrote:I anticipate most devs would prefer to use coherent standards when applying things to their game for example, but maybe I'm mistaken.


The Gold Standard wrote:[T]he intention of dungeon generation should be: To create varied tactical play. Anything that allows the player to neutralize the impact of random terrain generation and monster placement on tactical play subverts dungeon generation. That is what timers and so on are there to control.


Folks, I have the most coherent standards. People come to me saying, "tealizard, he has the best standards." More and more people are saying it. We love the standards. *hugs standards*
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:57

Re: Food suggestion

Wait, Are you deliberately talking like Trump? And you expect us to listen to you?

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 19:58

Re: Food suggestion

Vaamat, I'm really sorry your post has turned into this :(

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 20:35

Re: Food suggestion

Your advocacy for this underserved community is admirable.


As part of a refutation to your largely unsupported "shouldness", it will suffice. Also, apparently the answer to this question:

That said, "people struggle to win" is only a small piece of my refutation. Do you care to address the other parts


Is to avoid the discussion :p.

Anyway, there's not a lot here that effectively argues against goldifying food.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Thursday, 25th July 2019, 01:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd October 2019, 22:03

Re: Food suggestion

I don't think anybody has argued against goldifying food; only against whether to remove it entirely?

I didn't want to open that can of worms myself, but I'm hopeful that goldification will facilitate that discussion. Inventory management issues make food seem simultaneously more important and more obnoxious than it otherwise would. Maybe once that's out of the way, we'll get a better perspective.

Has anyone tried replacing hunger costs with a new resource ("spell ingredients" or something)? It seems plausible that high-level spells should have some extra cost, since the MP costs scale so slowly. Using food is an interesting idea but hasn't worked out, because there's tons of food, because starving is unfun. If there were separate "magic rations," and you could reduce the availability without killing the player, you could see if it's actually good or just pointless, and solve the stairscumming issue separately.

For mummy stairscumming, I hate to ask a silly question, but why not just stop updating levels after the first thousand turns or whatever, so that there's no point standing on the downstairs for longer than that?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 23rd October 2019, 01:43

Re: Food suggestion

The extra cost of high-level spells is skill points

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
Fingolfin, TheMeInTeam

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 23rd October 2019, 15:34

Re: Food suggestion

Yeah, skill points are already and would remain the significant cost for high level spells (along with gear consideration, since casting level 8+ spells in plate or gold scales takes ridiculous amounts of XP).

We haven't actually demonstrated that "mummy stairscumming" is an issue backed by any data. If you wait near infinite time the downstair *might* be safe, or it might not be. Taking an alternative stair might be safe, or it might not be. And often this is only a worthy consideration for a few floors, since taking the first god that's sufficiently beneficial to your character is good play.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Wednesday, 23rd October 2019, 17:29

Re: Food suggestion

[Edit: ignore earlier comment. It's not an issue.]

OP seems fine to me. I don't see any issues.

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