Formicids should not get swift


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 17th September 2019, 18:08

Re: Formicids should not get swift

TheMeInTeam wrote:Using them safely requires more foresight than haste/tp/blink
Sure, but Swiftness as a level 2 spell can be cast by anyone. My first reaction when I last played a formicid and realized I could memorize and cast Swiftness was "this feels wrong". That's why I started the whole thread...

You can "fix" anything that way. Right now minotaurs are allowed to cast mephitic cloud. That can be "fixed" by adding a line to their description that they can't cast mephitic cloud.
Sure, if there was a reason for such a restriction. I don't feel like there is any.

It's not "perfectly understandable" that you can use portals except that you can't use portals. It's internally inconsistent and silly.
How about a species which is "completely impervious to being teleported" being able to "instantaneously transport"? Feels internally inconsistent and silly to me.
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Post Tuesday, 17th September 2019, 20:42

Re: Formicids should not get swift

Sprucery wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:Using them safely requires more foresight than haste/tp/blink
Sure, but Swiftness as a level 2 spell can be cast by anyone. My first reaction when I last played a formicid and realized I could memorize and cast Swiftness was "this feels wrong". That's why I started the whole thread...

You can "fix" anything that way. Right now minotaurs are allowed to cast mephitic cloud. That can be "fixed" by adding a line to their description that they can't cast mephitic cloud.
Sure, if there was a reason for such a restriction. I don't feel like there is any.

It's not "perfectly understandable" that you can use portals except that you can't use portals. It's internally inconsistent and silly.
How about a species which is "completely impervious to being teleported" being able to "instantaneously transport"? Feels internally inconsistent and silly to me.

Again, this comes down to how *you* feel, and how you feel is quite frankly totally unimportant. You've said "you think there's a reason they should be this way" but the only actual *reason* you were able to actually articulate other than your *feeling* is that "it encourages you to use some less common escape tactics"

That's a valid reason, but PoG and swiftness *are* less commonly used than haste, blink and teleport, because they have drawbacks, require more planning etc. So it's a question of what degree of "uncommon" do you want to encourage, which comes down to personal preference, and as it happens it's not *your* personal preference that counts, further as we've discovered through this thread your preference isn't an overwhelming majority (it's not particularly rare either)

You can argue till your blue in the face, but if all you've got is "I think it should be this way because it seems like it should be to me" you're not going to change anyone's mind, because *everyone else* has already decided to have an opinion too, it's not like nobody has thought about it, and we're all like "ooh yeah, I never thought about whether that made sense to me or not"

So here's *my* opinion: Formicids aren't the way they are to "encourage using the specific racial escape abilities over common ones" they're set up to encourage you to use "escape tactics which require more forethought" dig and self-shaft require either advance preparation, or earlier escape (in the case of comparing self-shaft to teleport, self-shaft has more risk associated than a typical teleport, requiring you use it further in advance) and both blink and haste require less advance planning than swiftness or PoG.

That's an equally valid interpretation, and one that *actually fits with the current racial design* there's nothing to say my opinion is right and yours is wrong, nor is there anything to say the reverse is true.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 17th September 2019, 21:37

Re: Formicids should not get swift

Sure, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I also have no interest in trying to change anyone's opinion. After all, this is just a GDD thread and they rarely have any effect in the game anyway, except by accident :)
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Post Wednesday, 18th September 2019, 15:46

Re: Formicids should not get swift

Sure, if there was a reason for such a restriction. I don't feel like there is any.


That's the point with formicids and swiftness. "This feels wrong" is arbitrary reasoning, if it can even be described as reasoning. From my perspective, you might as well be asking for minotaurs to have mephitic cloud banned.

How about a species which is "completely impervious to being teleported" being able to "instantaneously transport"? Feels internally inconsistent and silly to me.


Seems to take a turn to physically walk through the portal actually. So it isn't instant and doesn't align with "teleport" logic. Character isn't blinking or teleporting, character is walking through a portal.

At that point it's not a matter of "feels". Portal =/= portal doesn't "feel" silly. Setting "X = not X" is objectively inconsistent.

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Post Wednesday, 18th September 2019, 20:13

Re: Formicids should not get swift

I don't think there's any particular reason Formicid has dig other than some vague "close to Earth" theme. Unlimited digging is a pretty bad thing to have, design-wise.

As for whether Formicid should have Swift or not, whatever. Stasis no longer exists in-game except as Formicid racial property, so one could make it mean whatever we want. Personally, I would prefer stasis to just be equivalent to "-Tele". It would be a meaningful restriction without all the random stuff about not being able to be hasted, slowed, berserked or paralyzed (when I think about "stasis", "immunity to paralysis" isn't the thought that comes to mind).

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 18th September 2019, 22:26

Re: Formicids should not get swift

TheMeInTeam wrote:That's the point with formicids and swiftness. "This feels wrong" is arbitrary reasoning, if it can even be described as reasoning. From my perspective, you might as well be asking for minotaurs to have mephitic cloud banned.
It is obvious that if you don't agree with my reasoning for why formicids exist, which I gave earlier, then you won't agree about what consequences that reasoning gives.

Seems to take a turn to physically walk through the portal actually. So it isn't instant and doesn't align with "teleport" logic. Character isn't blinking or teleporting, character is walking through a portal.

At that point it's not a matter of "feels". Portal =/= portal doesn't "feel" silly. Setting "X = not X" is objectively inconsistent.
It was probably in the PoG thread, but yes, I have already said a few times that there are two views to PoG: 1) In effect it is a delayed controlled blink (you choose the end point and are moved there instantly when you go to the gateway and press one button) and 2) the gateways use portal tiles and are entered with '>'.
Again, if you don't agree with my reasoning for why formicids exist, you probably don't care about view 1. But "walking through a portal" = "teleported to a destination you chose yourself".
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Post Thursday, 19th September 2019, 16:20

Re: Formicids should not get swift

That's not even factually sound, PoG portals are not placed precisely.

The most sensible/consistent implementation of formicids is probably permanent -tele and nothing else. It's true that even the present implementation has internal inconsistencies, while permanent -tele would not.
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Post Thursday, 19th September 2019, 17:49

Re: Formicids should not get swift

TheMeInTeam wrote:That's not even factually sound, PoG portals are not placed precisely.

Oops, yes, that was inaccurate of me, sorry about that.

The most sensible/consistent implementation of formicids is probably permanent -tele and nothing else.

I agree that it would be more consistent than the current situation. But personally I like the challenge aspect of no haste, so I wouldn't mind an even more restrictive implementation.
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Post Thursday, 19th September 2019, 17:58

Re: Formicids should not get swift

TheMeInTeam wrote:That's not even factually sound, PoG portals are not placed precisely.

The most sensible/consistent implementation of formicids is probably permanent -tele and nothing else. It's true that even the present implementation has internal inconsistencies, while permanent -tele would not.


I think that the only question then is how much easier the species becomes. But coherence definitely has value. For me it was a big surprise that swiftness works with Fo, or that Fo can't berserk -- and now I find that they can use Finesse.
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Post Thursday, 19th September 2019, 18:58

Re: Formicids should not get swift

Shtopit wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:That's not even factually sound, PoG portals are not placed precisely.

The most sensible/consistent implementation of formicids is probably permanent -tele and nothing else. It's true that even the present implementation has internal inconsistencies, while permanent -tele would not.


I think that the only question then is how much easier the species becomes. But coherence definitely has value. For me it was a big surprise that swiftness works with Fo, or that Fo can't berserk -- and now I find that they can use Finesse.


While they seem a bit above average right now, there are plenty of species with winrates higher by enough that I don't think this small change pushes them out of the ordinary.

Still, if you want them to be harder for some reason, you could cut into their excellent aptitudes or fast XP gain and it would probably lower their winrate more than access to haste/berserk would increase it.
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