## Change the way riposte works

Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 197

Joined: Sunday, 11th May 2014, 11:26

### Change the way riposte works

Long Blade's ability riposte is very unique and fun, but it's difficult to use and constrained. Let me compare it with Minotaur's headbutt, a similar ability. Both have a secondary structure that calculates probabilities after the trigger is triggered.

Riposte's trigger: evasion success
Riposte's second calculation: 33%

Minotaur's headbutt trigger: evasion success or evasion fail
Headbutt's second calculation: 5× STR + 7 × DEX > 1d(600)

In simple terms, it is only a + b, but in real play the probability of headbutt operating is more than twice that of riposte. The reason why I like headbutt is that it has a constant probability of activating anytime, anywhere. In contrast, riposte has a fluctuating probability of activations depending on the situation.

The table below shows the actual evasion probability based on the enemy's hit rate and the player's evasion number. There may be a mistake, but this isn't the point at the moment, so I'll pass on.
EV : 10, To_hit : 20. 44.1%
EV : 10, To_hit : 30. 30.2%
EV : 10, To_hit : 40. 23.3%
EV : 10, To_hit : 50. 19.1%
EV : 10, To_hit : 60. 16.3%
EV : 10, To_hit : 70. 14.4%
EV : 10, To_hit : 80. 12.9%
EV : 10, To_hit : 90. 11.7%

EV : 20, To_hit : 20. 78.9%
EV : 20, To_hit : 30. 61.1%
EV : 20, To_hit : 40. 47.0%
EV : 20, To_hit : 50. 38.1%
EV : 20, To_hit : 60. 32.2%
EV : 20, To_hit : 70. 27.9%
EV : 20, To_hit : 80. 24.8%
EV : 20, To_hit : 90. 22.3%

EV : 30, To_hit : 20. 89.4%
EV : 30, To_hit : 30. 79.9%
EV : 30, To_hit : 40. 68.0%
EV : 30, To_hit : 50. 56.9%
EV : 30, To_hit : 60. 48.0%
EV : 30, To_hit : 70. 41.5%
EV : 30, To_hit : 80. 36.7%
EV : 30, To_hit : 90. 32.8%

Of course, few actually weigh the evasion possibility against all enemies, but everyone will agree to some extent that this is harder to predict than other figures.

This is not the only problem with riposte. The probability of activating this ability is indirectly affected by the weight of the armor. More specifically, the more you wear strong and heavy armor, the decrease evasions, and so much faster the number of riposte decreases. I get the feeling here that this ability is implicitly forcing certain forms of combinations(light armor and No shield). This is not to say that the Trog is taboo to the level of banning the use of magic, but it is unlikely to make much difference if there is actually only one way to use it in a useful way.

What I want to emphasize here is not how powerful riposte is. What I'd like to say is that this ability should not be constrained to have very low usefulness except for certain combinations.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 62

Joined: Thursday, 20th March 2014, 13:09

### Re: Change the way riposte works

Riposte isn't worth saving, merge blades already having a big stabbing weapon is fun. Then you can go balance hexs without ruining a core crawl playstyle.

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powergame

Slime Squisher

Posts: 375

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

### Re: Change the way riposte works

The issue I see in this mechanic is that it is affected by EV, but it is completely removed from the actual weapon skill. You can run laps around your enemy with +Acrobat with 0 LB skill and somehow land more riposte hits than a 20+ LB skill swordmaster. That just doesn't add up, literally.

If riposte is reworked rather than removed, I'd like to see it actually get benefits from the weapon skill. Stab mechanics already depend on two skills, and that is at least logically consistent.
There is always something new to learn.

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sdynet

Posts: 638

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

### Re: Change the way riposte works

Riposte damage is affected by weapon skill. There are lots of problems with riposte but it's not true that weapon skill provides no benefit.
Remove spell hunger.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 13

Joined: Saturday, 9th December 2017, 19:14

### Re: Change the way riposte works

AFAIK you still get the exact same to-hit and damage bonuses for a ripost. I'd certainly be surprised, if not.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 87

Joined: Monday, 14th March 2011, 11:14

### Re: Change the way riposte works

A simple but a bit boring implementation: instead of automatic counterattack, Riposte applies a status effect to monster(s) attacking you, making them vulnerable to "stabbing". It would generate "stabbing" opportunities, but to actually use it you'd have to attack one of the highlighted enemies. Naturally it would need safeguards like "status goes away if you switch weapons" to prevent dagger use, and the "stabbing" (counter-attack) effectiveness would depend on something other than Stealth skill.

The advantage of this implementation is that it would be less like a variant of spines / acid splash. You'd immediately get rid of one class of bugs: multiple ripostes per turn.

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sdynet

Spider Stomper

Posts: 197

Joined: Sunday, 11th May 2014, 11:26

### Re: Change the way riposte works

b0rsuk wrote:A simple but a bit boring implementation: instead of automatic counterattack, Riposte applies a status effect to monster(s) attacking you, making them vulnerable to "stabbing". It would generate "stabbing" opportunities, but to actually use it you'd have to attack one of the highlighted enemies. Naturally it would need safeguards like "status goes away if you switch weapons" to prevent dagger use, and the "stabbing" (counter-attack) effectiveness would depend on something other than Stealth skill.

The advantage of this implementation is that it would be less like a variant of spines / acid splash. You'd immediately get rid of one class of bugs: multiple ripostes per turn.

In this case, the grade of stabbing is low, like confuse or nets, right? If then, I think it is a very interesting suggestion. I think the biggest advantage is that the feature is not complicated to explain. Write 'Riposte makes the enemy vulnerable to a momentary stabbing,' and that's it. Of course, at a high level of skill, this is a very powerful feature. But it would not hurt your balance as you have to invest in Long Blade and Stealth that much and secure high EV.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

### Re: Change the way riposte works

This would make tabbing much more complicated/inconvenient.

It would also reduce the overlap in function between reposte and cleave, which I would find sad. (Pseudo-)cleaving is nice.

Returning to the OP, it would appear sufficient to make the reposte chance scale with longblade skill.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 87

Joined: Monday, 14th March 2011, 11:14

### Re: Change the way riposte works

sdynet wrote:In this case, the grade of stabbing is low, like confuse or nets, right? If then, I think it is a very interesting suggestion. I think the biggest advantage is that the feature is not complicated to explain. Write 'Riposte makes the enemy vulnerable to a momentary stabbing,' and that's it. Of course, at a high level of skill, this is a very powerful feature. But it would not hurt your balance as you have to invest in Long Blade and Stealth that much and secure high EV.

Yes, low grade opportunities, but not actual stabbing and no Stealth skill used. There's nothing stealthy about outmaneuvering your opponent or moving him off-balance.

I call this a bit boring because this casually happens to Short Blades users already when summoned allies are involved or a yaktaur shoots a boggart in the back. Many players may not realize the difference.

I don't know about tabbing, my current character is a stealthy Demonspawn Fighter of Nemelex, he'd be long dead if I was tabbing.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 197

Joined: Sunday, 11th May 2014, 11:26

### Re: Change the way riposte works

petercordia wrote:This would make tabbing much more complicated/inconvenient.

It would also reduce the overlap in function between reposte and cleave, which I would find sad. (Pseudo-)cleaving is nice.

Returning to the OP, it would appear sufficient to make the reposte chance scale with longblade skill.

I see. The player won't be able to tap... It's going to be quite annoying.