Visible items in deep water


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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2019, 16:52

Visible items in deep water

Right now, items disappear for most species in deep water, but not for species like Merfolk and Octopode. There are a few issues with this:

1. Non-undead species can access a relatively inexpensive transformation ability that swims (ice form), and its inability to access deep water items is inconsistent with the fact that Op/Mf/Grey Dr can do so.

2. Amphibious species can apport items out of the water even while they're not in the water. This means that in an otherwise identical scenario, the rules for this spell differ arbitrarily.

3. This interaction makes playing with launchers/thrown items in places like swamp and shoals pretty annoying to optimize. Being able to apport out of water doesn't 100% fix this, but it's a nice step.

4. Even if ammo receives a rework, this does not change the fact that other equipment is arbitrarily lost permanently to deep water when monsters are killed there.

As such, I suggest that stuff in deep water remains visible to all species (everyone can at least learn apportation in principle). If possible, it would be ideal if these items lacked the green box outline unless the character can physically move into the water to retrieve the item.
Last edited by TheMeInTeam on Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2019, 17:35

Re: Visible items in deep water

The hellcrawl solution to this situation is to allow the player to walk through deep water at an extremely slow rate, unable to attack etc. It more or less works, although there are some situations where it makes sense to walk through deep water in combat. Monsters drop items in deep water and any character can retrieve them.

The underlying problem here is that items are bad and monsters carrying items is very bad. There is nothing monsters can do with items that cannot be replicated far more cleanly with normal monster abilities. Get rid of monsters picking up, using, equipping, or spawning with items and these problems and lots of others just go away.

edit: Glossed over the thing about ammo -- obviously it's ridiculous for the player's primary attack to generate new items and this bizarre mechanic should just be removed. If The Legend of Zelda doesn't need the player to pick up fired arrows, neither does crawl.
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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2019, 19:46

Re: Visible items in deep water

tealizard wrote:The underlying problem here is that items are bad

I cannot tell if you are serious or memeing?

tealizard wrote:monsters carrying items is very bad.

This I can agree with.

tealizard wrote:Glossed over the thing about ammo -- obviously it's ridiculous for the player's primary attack to generate new items and this bizarre mechanic should just be removed. If The Legend of Zelda doesn't need the player to pick up fired arrows, neither does crawl.

I agree with your opinion, but as I recall, you actually can pick up fired arrows if they hit terrain and not an enemy, in Ocarina of Time.
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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2019, 20:24

Re: Visible items in deep water

stormdragon wrote:
tealizard wrote:The underlying problem here is that items are bad

I cannot tell if you are serious or memeing?


I have an Alec Baldwin gif for this kind of situation, but the mods don't seem to like my gifs here. Anyway, you think I'm memeing with you? I am not memeing with you.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 03:06

Re: Visible items in deep water

OP seems reasonable. Items "disappearing" in deep water (but not really) is quite confusing.

There used to also be an interaction with Sunlight and deep water -- you could evaporate water to retrieve the "disappeared" items.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 03:50

Re: Visible items in deep water

tealizard wrote:I have an Alec Baldwin gif for this kind of situation, but the mods don't seem to like my gifs here. Anyway, you think I'm memeing with you? I am not memeing with you.


Then can you explain why you think this? I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but most of your posts that I come across seem to be advocating for the removal of all things from Crawl. It doesn't make much sense to me. WHY are items bad? Items are one of the primary methods of upgrading your character in just about every game ever made.

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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 13:17

Re: Visible items in deep water

Your claim that "items are one of the primary methods of upgrading your character in just about every game ever made," is ridiculous. You would equate the mushrooms from Super Mario Bros with crawl items.

Let's think about what an item is in crawl. Items can be on the ground or a shop where they maintain a fixed position, they can be in your inventory where they come along with you, they can be in a monster's inventory where they run around with the monster and find themselves in various strange situations when they drop. You can drop items, you can apport items, you can wear, wield, put them on and swap them, you can throw them or use them up, but you can only hold 52 of them. That's what an item is in crawl.

A power-up mushroom from Super Mario Bros is nothing like this. It doesn't have a fixed location or a permanent presence in the game. You cannot come back for it later. You cannot drop it or swap it or throw it. Monsters cannot use power-up mushrooms, cannot pick them up, cannot influence them in any way. You don't get an inventory in which to hold your excess mushrooms -- the company thought this would be a good idea in one release, Super Mario Bros 3, but seem to have realized their error since. Unlike crawl items, the power-up mushroom of Super Mario Bros produces nice, clean gameplay. If you apply this analysis to items in nearly every video game that has item mechanics, I think you will quickly realize that very few games have items in the sense that crawl has items and perhaps you'll gain an appreciation for why that is.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 14:28

Re: Visible items in deep water

TheMeInTeam wrote:Right now, items disappear for most species in deep water, but not for species like Merfolk and Octopode. There are a few issues with this:

1. Non-undead species can access a relatively inexpensive transformation ability that swims (ice form), and its inability to access deep water items is inconsistent with the fact that Op/Mf/Grey Dr can do so.


I can only assume this difference is about ice being less dense, and literally can't reach the bottom, unlike natural amphibians. This also makes no logical sense when applied to gargoyles, seeing as they need no air anyway but still can't move through deep water.

TheMeInTeam wrote:2. Amphibious species can apport items out of the water even while they're not in the water. This means that in an otherwise identical scenario, the rules this spell differ arbitrarily.

3. This interaction makes playing with launchers/thrown items in places like swamp and shoals pretty annoying to optimize. Being able to apport out of water doesn't 100% fix this, but it's a nice step.

4. Even if ammo receives a rework, this does not change the fact that other equipment is arbitrarily lost permanently to deep water when monsters are killed there.

As such, I suggest that stuff in deep water remains visible to all species (everyone can at least learn apportation in principle). If possible, it would be ideal if these items lacked the green box outline unless the character can physically move into the water to retrieve the item.


This is an elegant UI expansion, and makes apporting items more versatile. It's interesting that "knowing" where a submerged item is doesn't mean a thing when it comes to retrieval.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 15:18

Re: Visible items in deep water

Ice form does indeed just float on the water.

  Code:
Transforms the caster into a frozen ice-creature, light enough to float on water.
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Spoiler: show
3DSBeTr 15DSFiRu 3DSMoNe 3FoHuGo 3TrArOk 3HOFEVe 3MfGlOk 4GrEEVe 3BaIEChei 3HuMoOka 3MiWnQaz 3VSFiAsh 3DrTmMakh 3DSCKXom 3OgMoOka 3NaFiOka 3FoFiOka 3MuFEVeh 3CeHuOka 3TrMoTSO 3DEFESif 3DSMoOka 3DSFiOka

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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 16:11

Re: Visible items in deep water

A power-up mushroom from Super Mario Bros is nothing like this. It doesn't have a fixed location or a permanent presence in the game. You cannot come back for it later. You cannot drop it or swap it or throw it. Monsters cannot use power-up mushrooms, cannot pick them up, cannot influence them in any way. You don't get an inventory in which to hold your excess mushrooms -- the company thought this would be a good idea in one release, Super Mario Bros 3, but seem to have realized their error since.


1. This isn't true, Mario games have allowed some degree of item storage --> later usage in multiple games, even in its mainline series.
2. While you have established that Mario items are (sometimes) different from Crawl items in a meaningful way, you haven't actually demonstrated/argued why items in crawl are actually bad.

I can only assume this difference is about ice being less dense, and literally can't reach the bottom, unlike natural amphibians. This also makes no logical sense when applied to gargoyles, seeing as they need no air anyway but still can't move through deep water.


Ice form does indeed just float on the water.


Even if ice beasts are *purely* made of ice, we're talking about less than a .08 gram/cubic cm difference between "ice beast body" and "human body", so I'm not sure this explanation works by itself as a reason they can't retrieve items. An ice beast could presumably "swim down", unless proportionately *weaker* than a human by a significant margin. That would be a hard case to make given the in-game bonuses.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 16:48

Re: Visible items in deep water

No amount of silly quibbling will make the argument that most or all or even a substantial fraction video games have items remotely resembling crawl items hold water and I will not entertain your attempts.

I used to be like you, with an uncritical sensibility. Then I played optimally. When you've seen the dark underbelly of this game, you can never turn your back on it, never pretend that it doesn't exist.
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Post Wednesday, 13th November 2019, 17:08

Re: Visible items in deep water

Games in different genres have different mechanics. Comparing items in crawl to items in an action game (or others) is argumentatively strange in the first place. Let's consider your standard in a different light:

If The Legend of Zelda doesn't need the player to pick up fired arrows, neither does crawl.


--> If The Legend of Zelda doesn't need combat RNG, neither does crawl.

If you're not willing to accept that statement, then there is necessarily something wrong with your argument as it is presented.

~~~

There is no human being who played or plays crawl "optimally". Not even if you properly pin down the definition of "optimal" and constrain actions towards your stated goal as much as humanly possible.

At this point you're claiming "I'm right because I say I'm right". You're still not providing substantive reasoning. Absent such reasoning, however, there's no reason to take a particular statement as more credible than any other random preference.

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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 19:53

Re: Visible items in deep water

I completely agree with TheMeInTeam here. Super Mario Bros and Crawl have different item systems because they are inherently different styles of game. But even completely disregarding that, let's look at some other classics to compare, shall we?

Castlevania has items that you pick up, carry, use repeatedly, and then maybe drop when you find something else you like. Sounds similar to Crawl. More modern versions of Castlevania - you know, the ones that most people actually enjoy playing (almost every single one of them since SotN, for example) - have an even more extensive itemization scheme that almost perfectly matches Crawl with the sole difference of not having a max inventory size. Hmm.

The Legend of Zelda, in every single one of its iterations without exception, has the player finding new items to make their character stronger and able to take on new threats. Imagine that. You can't drop them here in exchange for other items, but that's simply because the item system isn't enslaved to the whims of RNG. (EDIT: After looking at this again, I completely forgot to even account for Breath of the Wild, which DOES have you acquiring, using, dropping, and trading weapons who are beholden to RNG.)

Final Fantasy, in every single one of its iterations without exception, has the player finding new items to make their character(s) stronger and able to take on new threats. Imagine that.

Metroid, in every single one of its iterations without exception, has the player finding new items to make their character stronger and able to take on new threats.

See where I'm going with this?

If you're going to compare Crawl to other games of an entirely different genre you can at least choose something to compare it to that makes sense. Items are a primary source of character power in a vast majority of game series of major acclaim with the exception of most platformers because why does a platformer need an equipment list when all you do is run and jump? Temporary powerups take the place of permanent character upgrades because that's the kind of game that the developer decided to make in that case.

Frankly, I'm already inclined to disagree with your opinions because you state that you're an optimal elite pro player as if that's some kind of measurement of fact. It isn't. All it means is you think your opinions are better than someone else's because you said so.

tealizard wrote:No amount of silly quibbling will make the argument that most or all or even a substantial fraction video games have items remotely resembling crawl items hold water and I will not entertain your attempts.


First of all, that's incredibly rude. Second of all, you refuse to entertain any further conversation at the first sign of someone disagreeing with something the mighty tealizard has deigned to impart upon us mere mortals. If you can't defend an idea beyond even basic questioning, it's not a good idea.

On top of that, you've still failed to explain why items are bad. You've only served to present yourself as an ass. I could have accepted something like "relying on random items for character power progression sucks because you can't be sure what you'll find, and it's possible to die simply because you didn't find the right thing". I disagree with the statement - part of the draw of roguelikes for myself and many others is the inherent randomness which leads to replayability, and as a result of that sometimes you just get boned - but it could have at least led to further discussion on the topic. Instead you've thrown a tantrum and explained nothing.

I hope you have a nice day and I hope you can come back to this discussion with something of substance. My intention here isn't to fight with you, only to understand the point that you're trying to make.
Last edited by PseudoLoneWolf on Thursday, 14th November 2019, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 20:19

Re: Visible items in deep water

E-peen waving of "optimal play" needs some numbers/reasoning attached, along with why it's relevant to a particular mechanic. Elite players aren't always right, and even if the greatest idiot yells that the sun is shining at noon, the world won't go dark where he lives as he says it. To the extent that an argument *can* be right or wrong, it will be right or wrong regardless of the skill of the person making it.

In the ~year and 3 months since I've started playing I've gone from total newbie to performing at a level comfortably inside the top 1% of players. I've lived the "unspoiled player" experience that gets thrown around here on occasion in discussion, and said experience is pretty recent. There are still elite players who play far better than me (Yermak, Dynast, pedritolo, UV4 when he's active, pretty much anybody in the top 10 this past tournament as examples).

Yet when it comes to arguments whether X is a good mechanic or not, none of this matters. The irony is claiming that such is an "uncritical sensibility", while making arguments about "shouldness" that are about as logically sound as "Tengu should be buffed in crawl because in reality deer can bench press the moon".

Maybe Te really should be buffed, maybe not. But such a reason as that, or as given for "items are bad" so far, don't support the notion.
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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 21:16

Re: Visible items in deep water

I will once more, politely, decline to engage with this meritless, semantic argument, which fails on its own terms as I've outlined above.
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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 21:35

Re: Visible items in deep water

So there's no point to be made and your arguments hold no merit. Excellent, glad we got that sorted. Let's move on then.

Back on the topic of the actual post, is there a compelling reason why deep water even blocks movement in the first place? Despite our recent argument about an unrelated topic I do actually agree with tealizard in that hellcrawl sort of solves this problem handily by just letting anyone swim (slowly) through deep water. I think it's reasonable to expect that most humanoids would know how to swim. Gargoyles might not, but they don't have to breathe so it's a moot point. Setting the movespeed to something absurdly low in water helps prevent it from being a viable tactical choice in most combat situations, unless you are a merfolk who specifically benefits from it. Any other situations in which deep water is intended specifically to block movement can be solved with lava, which already exists and can't be swum in no matter what.

I'm on the side of just letting pretty much everyone swim. This prevents having to majorly rework the layouts of swamp/shoals and solves the issue at hand, which is items disappearing into deep water.
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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 21:43

Re: Visible items in deep water

If you thought about it, I think you would find you agree with my other arguments in this thread as well.

Anyway, yes, there's obviously no problem with letting all characters move through water in a limited, non-tactical way, but not letting monsters carry items in the first place is the better, fuller solution.
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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 22:02

Re: Visible items in deep water

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:So there's no point to be made and your arguments hold no merit. Excellent, glad we got that sorted. Let's move on then.

Back on the topic of the actual post, is there a compelling reason why deep water even blocks movement in the first place? Despite our recent argument about an unrelated topic I do actually agree with tealizard in that hellcrawl sort of solves this problem handily by just letting anyone swim (slowly) through deep water. I think it's reasonable to expect that most humanoids would know how to swim. Gargoyles might not, but they don't have to breathe so it's a moot point. Setting the movespeed to something absurdly low in water helps prevent it from being a viable tactical choice in most combat situations, unless you are a merfolk who specifically benefits from it. Any other situations in which deep water is intended specifically to block movement can be solved with lava, which already exists and can't be swum in no matter what.

I'm on the side of just letting pretty much everyone swim. This prevents having to majorly rework the layouts of swamp/shoals and solves the issue at hand, which is items disappearing into deep water.

A compelling reason for deep water to make items inaccessible is flavour. Not everyone can dive to the see floor and come back up. A reason not to allow everyone to swim is to avoid the silly situation where your dude-in-plate swims to the middle of a 3x3 lake and waits there until he's healed up. This strategy would be both immersion-breakingly silly and unpleasant gameplay.

As TheMeInTeam's comment about apportation showed, item destruction & movement blocking are 2 different question. His proposed solution sounds reasonable.

I don't really see why swamp/shoals would need to be reworked btw :)

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Post Thursday, 14th November 2019, 22:37

Re: Visible items in deep water

tealizard wrote:I will once more, politely, decline to engage with this meritless, semantic argument, which fails on its own terms as I've outlined above.


Talking about "meritless semantics" isn't polite. The only thing failing here is the supportive reasoning for your statements regarding items.

~~~

As an aside, I do broadly like the movement restrictions brought by deep water (and more rarely, lava). It wouldn't be fun everywhere, but having this terrain consideration makes the areas with it play differently. So I'm not excited by the "can swim slowly in this" solution, even though it would still result in a unique experience having the slow swim would dampen what makes swimming species unique and unless monsters can also go into water slowly to hit you might have some unintended/degenerate tactics available to it (slowly move into deep water and then one space further and stuff can't hit you). While hiding in water in swamp or shoals would be a bad idea in nearly every case, that's not true everywhere else. I'm not sure the benefits would be worth the need to mess with level generation or introduce degenerate play.

And yes, swimming =/= able to drag stuff off the bottom of deep water. Some really experienced humans can hold their breath and dive pretty deep, but even this isn't infinite and it'd be silly to assume a typical adventurer of a given species would have this specialization. Apportation, on the other hand, is in principle the same spell regardless of whether it's cast by Mf, Sp, Og, Op, Hu, or Fe.

This also allows a more flavor-consistent interaction between deep water and lava, the latter of which reasonably would just straight up destroy things that fall in.

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Post Friday, 15th November 2019, 00:04

Re: Visible items in deep water

Degenerate play regarding deep water already exists with at least 4 species and any character that has usable boots of flight; if player swimming is a problem because of degenerate play then deep water existing at all is a problem. Not a good argument for maintaining tedious item interactions.

The flavor argument is ridiculous and should be dismissed out of hand; it isn't even flavor-consistent to suggest that people would need "infinite" lung capacity or diving ability since giant monsters can wade through deep water, but it would be trivial to adjust the flavor to say it was, I dunno, an ogre and a half deep if that was a serious concern.
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Post Friday, 15th November 2019, 13:22

Re: Visible items in deep water

TheMeInTeam wrote:There is no human being who played or plays crawl "optimally". Not even if you properly pin down the definition of "optimal" and constrain actions towards your stated goal as much as humanly possible.


On an unrelated note, can I append this to my sig at some point? Full credit to you, naturally.
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Post Friday, 15th November 2019, 16:17

Re: Visible items in deep water

Sorcerous wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:There is no human being who played or plays crawl "optimally". Not even if you properly pin down the definition of "optimal" and constrain actions towards your stated goal as much as humanly possible.


On an unrelated note, can I append this to my sig at some point? Full credit to you, naturally.


Haha, if you want to do so I don't mind.

Degenerate play regarding deep water already exists with at least 4 species and any character that has usable boots of flight; if player swimming is a problem because of degenerate play then deep water existing at all is a problem. Not a good argument for maintaining tedious item interactions.


On reflection, you're right that I didn't make the case soundly. I'd more say I'm hesitant to blanket grant part of a racial advantage of a few species to all species.

The flavor argument is ridiculous and should be dismissed out of hand; it isn't even flavor-consistent to suggest that people would need "infinite" lung capacity or diving ability since giant monsters can wade through deep water, but it would be trivial to adjust the flavor to say it was, I dunno, an ogre and a half deep if that was a serious concern.


We could get pretty deep into the weeds here, if we start talking about items preventing normal swimming (but then how are characters flying with full inventory and heavy armor?) or wading depth. On the other hand, it's interesting (IMO) to have a partially-constrained movement terrain option that provides advantages and dangers based on what you're playing and what you're fighting. Maybe deep water moving for non-specialists isn't as big a deal as I suspect, however.
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Post Friday, 15th November 2019, 21:32

Re: Visible items in deep water

My 2 cents about items: Crawl is a roguelike game. Every roguelike game I've played (I've played a few) has items. Imo getting rid of items as objects would move Crawl away from the roguelike genre to something else. I'm a dinosaur and like roguelike games.

Spoiler: show
I don't want to derail the thread but imo items should still have weight/bulkiness/younameit and different species should have different carrying capacities etc. And as much as I hated item destruction in Crawl, having some form of it in the game would be good.
...CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}

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Post Saturday, 16th November 2019, 23:10

Re: Visible items in deep water

tealizard wrote:If you thought about it, I think you would find you agree with my other arguments in this thread as well.
Yes, of course. Obviously, if everyone just thought about it, they would all agree with you, because your opinion is fundamentally correct and superior.
I don't want to play crawl without items. Finding items is fun, upgrading items is fun, using items is fun, and item management is rarely significantly annoying in this post item destruction world we live in. I've played RLs without or with very minimized items/equipment, and I don't like them. Bite me.

A straightforward solution to items in deep water that doesn't involve opening up more ways for players to cheese monsters, or breath holding mechanics, or whatever, is making items get pushed out of deep water into the shallows by water currents over time.

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Post Thursday, 28th November 2019, 12:16

Re: Visible items in deep water

anytime a thread is made about something on tavern, one of the 3 posters will say it needs to be removed and they will thank each other. Its pretty amusing and annoying at the same time.

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Post Thursday, 28th November 2019, 18:21

Re: Visible items in deep water

Threads should be removed!

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