Starting backgrounds - small tweaks

[Strongpoint]

I really like that new monk with piety and I'll start a brainstorming topic for small tweaks that may make starting backgrounds more interesting and diverse

By small I mean small, something that will not seriously change the way how background is played

I'll start with a little buff for fighters - Give them robust mutation from the start. It's not against design philosophy, mutations are much less permanent than learned 1st level spells

[KoboldLord]

Robust 1 is +10%, so that would be about 2hp extra, growing to around 5hp extra by the time they hit Temple. I'm not sure if this would have the desired effect. I'm more worried that it would sound really good without actually being good, leading newbies to flock to a still-ineffectual background that has no useful starting options instead of going berserker or hunter from the very start.

[nicolae]

Robust 1 is +10%, so that would be about 2hp extra, growing to around 5hp extra by the time they hit Temple. I'm not sure if this would have the desired effect. I'm more worried that it would sound really good without actually being good, leading newbies to flock to a still-ineffectual background that has no useful starting options instead of going berserker or hunter from the very start.

What are the biggest problems with the class? I usually only play MdFi (as opposed to Fighters of other species) and that seems to work all right.

I suppose a starting skill boost or perhaps a choice of supplementary throwing weapon are out of the question.

[dtsund]

For what it's worth, in Light I gave Fighters the next weapon up in their respective choice. Fighters who choose hand axes, for instance, get both a hand axe and a war axe. Not a huge boost, but hey.

(In the case of polearms, they just get an enchanted weapon. There was no sane upgrade for that case.)

[galehar]

I suppose a starting skill boost or perhaps a choice of supplementary throwing weapon are out of the question.

Not really. They had their shields skill boosted not long ago.

For what it's worth, in Light I gave Fighters the next weapon up in their respective choice. Fighters who choose hand axes, for instance, get both a hand axe and a war axe. Not a huge boost, but hey.

Well, fighters should have an easier time finding an upgrade to their starting weapon since generation has been tweaked.

[ElectricAlbatross]

If I'm remembering correctly, the basic foundations of combat maneuvers are planned for .10. Fighters' Fighting skill, the highest out of any background, should give them at least a little advantage in performing maneuvers, assuming that maneuvers' success and effectiveness will be modified by Fighting skill as well as stats.

[galehar]

If I'm remembering correctly, the basic foundations of combat maneuvers are planned for .10.

No it's not. Here is the development planning.

[dpeg]

It is probably best to discuss backgrounds one by one. So this is about Fighters.

I agree that the situation is not satisfactory. Apart from powerhouses like MDFi and MiFi the background seems lackluster, especially if compared with Gl or perhaps Mo now. The issue is a little worrisome as Fighters are the first background listed and will be regarded as a generic, strong class to start with.

There have been the following proposals so far:
* higher skills
* enchantment (I suggested +1 to weapon, armour, shield)
* better base weapon (would need to come with an accuracy enchantment, I think)
* consumable (I like one potion of might)
* throwables (Berserks had four spears, which was extremely thematic; we could give them to Fighters)
* mutation

The mutation will be controversial. It breaks new ground, as far as backgrounds go. Then again, so did the piety for Monks, so I am in no position to argue. (Disclaimer: I am fine with robustness for Fighters, although I am not sure this is the best way to buff them.)

[mad]

Has the possibility of items being pre-identified (like potions of pois are for VM) been discussed? Perhaps any subset of (might, speed, agility) might work?

Since it's strictly weaker than providing them with a potion of that type it might be a lesser buff?

By the way, I should probably add that I think all of those suggestions are excellent (particularly giving one !Might); I just wanted to mention this one as well.

[dpeg]

Yes, that is also an option. I forgot to list it.

[Jeremiah]

Since fighters are meant to be the "heavy armour" fighter, why not focus on this and improve their starting armour. A fighter's starting AC of 5 isn't enough better than a gladiator's 4 AC to be worth it (based on a human,) and it seems a bit odd that the gladiator gets a helmet while the fighter does not.

Perhaps the fighter should start out with some additional items of armour (helmet + gauntlets for example, maybe boots as well), while the gladiator should possibly lose the helmet. This would mean there was less incentive to play fighters of species who cannot wear this equipment, but those species have little incentive to play a fighter rather than gladiator already.

[galehar]

Fighters is already one of the background with the most skill points. A HuFi starts with 1054 skill points, which makes him third behind Monk (1224) and Priest (1104). Increasing the main weapon skill to 3 would put them just a few points behind monk. I'm not saying we can't do it, just giving some perspective.
Enchanting the equipment is simple and efficient.

Here are the stats (dam/acc/delay) for the starting weapons and alternatives:

mace 8/3/14
flail 9/2/15

short sword 6/4/11
sabre 7/4/12

falchion 8/2/13
long sword 10/1/14

hand axe 7/3/13
war axe 11/0/15

spear 6/4/11
trident 9/3/13

long sword would be a very solid choice and flail a very poor one. War axe a very dangerous one.

I really don't like giving consumables to fighters.
Helmet and gloves could be nice and thematic.

[jejorda2]

What if fighters started with a new armour type (Studded leather armour? Albino Dragon Armour?) AC 5, EV -1, (Same as mottled dragon armour, without the rSticky Flame). Or adjust the AC or EV a point to make it not quite so special. Maybe give it an additional evasion penalty (like some randarts and rings of evasion have) that doesn't affect the weapon and spellcasting penalties, so it won't be attractive to keep for light-armour fighters? Or give it rC- and rF-, so it's unattractive in the later game but still good on D1?

This would keep defenses about the same while improving early offense. I guess a ring mail and some gloves would do the same thing, but this way you can still find gloves on the ground and get tougher.

I guess decoupling the weapon penalty and the EV penalty in general would make it easier for fighters, but that needs to be there to encourage skill investment to make heavy/light armour an actual choice.

[KoboldLord]

I know that keeping the distinction between heavy-armor non-magic melee and light-armor non-magic melee is desirable, but is it actually possible? Both heavy and light armor are perfectly happy to have low levels of both armor and dodging, since the opportunity cost of the first few levels in a skill is negligible and they do have some value. If you want to be a heavy-armor character, you can just as easily start as a gladiator for the nets and strap on the first set of chain mail you see; the very same set of chain mail you'd be putting on if you started as a fighter. The boost to armor vs. dodging skill is no longer relevant, now that you can just flip your skills to manual and put both of them wherever you want them.

So, it seems to me that we could merge the fighter, the gladiator, and the assassin into two backgrounds. The assassin would be the designated light-armor warrior, with starting stealth and the blowgun & needles. The gladiator would be the designated defensive option, starting with ring mail, a slot or two worth of additional armor, and a buckler or shield. Also the nets, because they're fun and useful and every background should have a finite resource other than hp to manage.

[JeffQyzt]

Not sure if it would increase low level survivability, but what if Fighter were re-flavored as Soldier, explained as having been recently discharged with pay, and were given extra gold?

Alternatively, I like giving Fighters (or Soldiers) the "complete set" of gear the best (which would represent the above payout, spent.)

[ElectricAlbatross]

Extra gold is not useful early on—as often as not, you can reach Lair without seeing a single shop—and is not useful later on, when most characters are swimming in it anyway. I support enchanted equipment, and possibly knowledge of consumables.

[Dustbin]

What about knowledge of Enchant I/II scrolls? Or maybe start with their weapon of choice vorpalized.

[nicolae]

Perhaps the fighter should start out with some additional items of armour (helmet + gauntlets for example, maybe boots as well), while the gladiator should possibly lose the helmet. This would mean there was less incentive to play fighters of species who cannot wear this equipment, but those species have little incentive to play a fighter rather than gladiator already.

I like this suggestion. Extra starting armor or a stronger starting weapon choice (either stronger base weapons or stronger enchantments) seem like a simple idea to try out.

Alternate idea, although it gets away from the "skills + equipment" definition of most backgrounds, is that Fighters ID weapons on wielding or pickup because of their extensive martial training. (This might overlap with Ashenzari, though.)

[thenewflesh]

(This might overlap with Ashenzari, though.)

I don't think the overlap is a problem. Except without Ash you shouldn't be able to query curse status of an item without wielding it and you don't identify it right away, you need to carry it for a few turns (reduced with Fighting skill).

Robust mutation on the other hand just rubs me the wrong way. Fighters live and die by their skills, equipment and gods, not body modifications, unless it's a Demonspawn, of course.

[galehar]

Fighters ID weapons on wielding or pickup because of their extensive martial training.

Backgrounds can't have any special ability like that.

[pratamawirya]

Or maybe start with their weapon of choice vorpalized.

This would kill the already not-so-useful scroll.

[Danei]

Or maybe start with their weapon of choice vorpalized.

This would kill the already not-so-useful scroll.

Not that I think vorpalizing the starting weapon would be the best way to improve fighters, but I don't see how that would kill the scroll. Most players aren't even going to find a vorpal scroll until they've already replaced the starting weapon, even if it's vorpalized.

A vorpal hand axe (or falchion, etc.) isn't as good as an unenchanted war axe (or scimitar, etc.) with any significant weapon skill.

Personally, I favor the enchanted equipment (numerical enchantment) option. It's simple, straightforward, thematic, well-differentiated from the advantages of other backgrounds, and easy to tweak for balance.

[bobross419]

+1/+1 Ring of Slaying? Or similarly low powered slaying.

[defen]

A potion of might, maybe two, seems the most consistent with the assassin and the gladiator. Further statistical/mutation/gear bonuses would make fighters strictly better than berserkers for all armored races.

[mumra]

A free starting potion is actually a bonus of two when you think about it. Normally you'd waste the first potion you find on identification, or burn a scroll of id, or wait several levels before you find out what it is. If you start with a potion, you not only have a freebie, but the very next potion you find is also a gift. So this perk is even better than it looks at first glance.

[ElectricAlbatross]

I'd also support the idea of evening out Gladiators and Fighters by taking away the helmet from the former and possibly giving it to the latter. Gladiators already have lighter armour and a more usable shield as well as nets to differentiate them and help them survive; they don't need the helmet except for flavor reasons.

[Danei]

+1/+1 Ring of Slaying? Or similarly low powered slaying.

That would be way too strong. I also think free jewelry isn't a good solution in general.

Further statistical/mutation/gear bonuses would make fighters strictly better than berserkers for all armored races.

Strictly better? Berserkers start with a god (not to mention one that gives them the ability to berserk right off the bat).

Maybe a ghoul would be strictly better as a fighter rather than a berserker, but wouldn't that still be true with might potions?