Experimental branch: two state vampires

[bmfx]

Hungerless vampires seem to me like better mummies, with good aptitudes and access to potions. Let's give them even more mummy treatment and make bloodless vampires unable to drink. It even makes sense from phisiological point of view, when there's no blood circulation potion's "payload" cannot be distributed among body organs. The added risk should improve balance between bloodless and alive states. It doesn't fix the imbalanceness of hungerless high level spells and god abilities, but it seems noone is concerned about that anyway.

I'm also in "let bloodless regen with no monsters in LOS" camp, but regeneration should only kick in after a certain amount of rest, like 10-15 turns. And transitions from one form to another should be uninterruptable. That way switching to alive is optimal for regeneration but you're at risk if someone walks in LOS during transformation. And those of us who don't care about optimality and just want smooth gaming experience can just press 5 and have their hp restored without unnecessary keypresses and state transitions.

[sdynet]

Hungerless vampires seem to me like better mummies, with good aptitudes and access to potions. Let's give them even more mummy treatment and make bloodless vampires unable to drink. It even makes sense from phisiological point of view, when there's no blood circulation potion's "payload" cannot be distributed among body organs.

Gh can drink. And in this case, someone who drinks in the Alive state and tries form change will definitely appear. Remember Repel missiles? We know. We prefer useful things, even if they are annoying. Forbid drinking in all forms. If not, allow drinking in all forms.

The added risk should improve balance between bloodless and alive states. It doesn't fix the imbalanceness of hungerless high level spells and god abilities, but it seems noone is concerned about that anyway.

I agree with you on this part. Gh is low in intelligence, and they rot when they is hungry. Mu can't drink and the aptitude is low. The changed vampire did not pay for anything.

I'm also in "let bloodless regen with no monsters in LOS" camp, but regeneration should only kick in after a certain amount of rest, like 10-15 turns. And transitions from one form to another should be uninterruptable.

I think shouldn't pay the price of power as a nuisance. Nem's reform is not a strong/weak problem. That's because it was annoying. It is right to remove the annoyance even if the buff gets a little stronger.

[Rast]

If we are removing all vamp nutrition interactions (which is fine by me), why are we keeping the same sad little set of powers/drawbacks that were originally based around nutrition management?

[Nekoatl]

I recommend changing the default behavior to disable all automatic state changes, as characters performing actions not requested by the player (especially ones that take multiple turns) is a recipe for confusion and frustration, especially for players who aren't comfortable with (or even aware of) configuration options. Opting into automatic state changes, rather than opting out, means that players will know what they're getting into and can plan around it.

[ebering]

Ok, I've pushed some new changes.

The first of them I think should address the "sometimes not working" property of the auto-switching. Utterly baffled by the reported difference in behavior between number pad and number row, since both should internally be calling CMD_REST.

The next is ending transforms instantly on state change instead of giving a one-turn grace. Also you can't exsanguinate or revivify if the resulting untransformation would kill you.

Regarding Drain: Alive vampires are now vulnerable. This also tweaks a few more edge cases.

I agree that a swap cost beyond time and a nerf to bloodless are needed. Still contemplating the details.

[kitchen_ace]

The cosplay challenge has a few games completed now: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... _jory_the/

In general the consensus seems to be that no longer relying on blood potions is a big improvement, and the reduction of vampires to two states is not as important a change.

Building from the latest commits now...

edit: Auto-switching for resting still not working for me, locally, using 0.24-a0-281-gd8fc78d84f. I'll try webtiles when CKO updates.

[kitchen_ace]

I don't know enough to know what's going on, but adding an mpr in _do_rest in main.cc, after the actual resting part but before turning back to bloodless, causes me to turn alive and then immidiately turn bloodless again when resting, healing 1 HP at XL1 and taking 10 turns. For comparison, turning Alive and then Bloodless manually, takes 12 turns and heals for 2 HP (because you heal some while the bloodletting ritual is in progress).

  Code:


static void _do_rest()
{
    if (apply_starvation_penalties())
    {
        mpr("You're too hungry to rest.");
        return;
    }

    if (i_feel_safe())
    {
        bool vampire_exsanguinate = false;
        if (you.species == SP_VAMPIRE
            && you.hp != you.hp_max
            && Options.vampire_rest_alive
            && !you.vampire_alive)
        {
            vampire_exsanguinate = true;
            start_delay<RevivifyDelay>(5, true);
        }

        if ((you.hp == you.hp_max ||
            (!player_regenerates_hp() && !vampire_exsanguinate))
            && (you.magic_points == you.max_magic_points
                || !player_regenerates_mp())
            && ancestor_full_hp())
        {
            mpr("You start waiting.");
            _start_running(RDIR_REST, RMODE_WAIT_DURATION);
        }
        else
        {
            mpr("You start resting.");
            _start_running(RDIR_REST, RMODE_REST_DURATION);
        }

        mpr("Test"); //XXX: <------------------ why?

        if (you.species == SP_VAMPIRE && vampire_exsanguinate)
            start_delay<ExsanguinateDelay>(5);
    }
}


[ebering]

Big Update:

From the collected feedback it's abundantly clear that a "no regen/no cost to get regen" mix is no good; the resulting tedious loop is either a player headache or a technical headache, and the latter is a gameplay bandaid.

State changing really needs a tactical cost, and bat form some kind of longer-duration cost also. So, the updated branch defaults vampire_rest_alive to false (I don't recommend you use it), gives bloodless VP normal regen when monsters aren't in sight, and adds costs: permanent HP for revivify (2%, calculated by random rounding; switching early on has little long term impact but could be that one more hp you needed against a gnoll; switching lot late will get expensive), temporary stat drain (4-9 randomly drawn) for entering bat form. As a bonus, resting with 5 now definitely does the correct thing (unless I've introduced new bugs by not removing the rest_alive option).

The exact numbers on the costs will need some tuning and that's where feedback comes in. Roll up another Vampire and let me know how it goes.

[kitchen_ace]

I know you said in your last post that a nerf to bloodless form was needed, so I won't make too many judgments on this iteration. As it is though, giving bloodless the ability to regenerate, and a permanent cost to switch back to alive, effectively makes this now one-state vampires for a typical game. The stat drain on bat form feels about right, though getting a bad roll is pretty harsh early on; it should also probably just fail if the resultant stat drain would take the player to zero or lower in any stat.

edit: If Alive vampires had the ability to regenerate stats quicker than normal, that might make for a nice contrast with bloodless and bat form.

[nago]

I think adding a cost cost to batform is a good change - maybe simply skill drain would be better to be coherent to other "abilities" but it's a minor thing.

However, as already said, I don't see why adding a permanent, "significant" cost to switch state, especially when 'alive' doesn't seem to provide any significant bonus.
Why should one do that?

In the early floors, where regen during pillar-dancing is actually significant and which are also the ones where batform isn't available, one should stay alive.
After that, one could switch to undead status and don't bother to switch to alive ever again.

I don't think the ability to switch should have a permament cost. I think it could have a temporary cost - such has drain - and possibily be a multiturn action (like 5 or 10) to make very bad during combat. Anyway, first of all the two forms should provide different bonuses and justify for some reasons the alive status.
Fast regen isn't enough.

I'd suggest to add a useful active ability to alive status too.
I think "enslave other" would fit with vampire lore. Something like the wand effect with those differences:
1) add a quick exhaust cooldown - quick such as 5 turns so it's repeatable in bad roll occurs
2) it's possibile to have only 1 ally at time with this power
3) Maybe check HD over mr to make it worthwhile up late game? Or provide some enchancer at xl 15ish to keep it useful? (it's should be balanced against batform, which is useful for pretty much all the game)

[sdynet]

However, as already said, I don't see why adding a permanent, "significant" cost to switch state, especially when 'alive' doesn't seem to provide any significant bonus.
Why should one do that?

I agree with this. The present alive form has no great advantage. Returns and risks should be proportionate. It's probably this form.
The cost of the switch is:
Low - Because alive is not powerful.
Or
High - Because alive is powerful.

[Rast]

ebering, let me save you some headache: all vampire forms should have the same regen rate.

[TheMeInTeam]

I played it prior to the most recent changes, and did indeed enjoy not dealing with blood management. I spent most of the game in alive since I was a caster with good tmuts and switching was annoying.

I'm not sure about adding a permanent HP cost to switching unless alive is really good too, it kind of makes vampires a "pick one or the other and stay there" setup. That might be intended/fine, but if so "alive" is something of a "Sinv human-like troll" with the regen/aptitudes.

The bat form cost is definitely reasonable, though maybe not the precise amount? Would need to try that out. It was extremely good in this past iteration any time I was in a situation where I wanted bloodless form, an almost-free run-away button. I tapered off using it a lot after I had passage of golubria going though, latter being more convenient while wearing -tele and switching that on and off using statue form as needed.

[svendre]

1. Remove states (leave bloodless)
2. Set regeneration to normal
3. Add and tweak unique abilities to differentiate the species from other undead, examples: "Enslave, Bat form, etc. etc."
4. Add unique disadvantages which aren't annoying or tedious such as blood bottling was. The quirks should be enough that vampire isn't a no-brainer over other undead, just a different experience. I personally can't stand any form of permanent loss.

I think creativity to uniquely define the species with new features will go farther than band-aiding and rehashing existing parameters that were wonky to begin with.

[acoolguy]

Just finished of crawl's cosplay challenge in the experimental branch and did Tomb and Zot (https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... _jory_the/). Overall I like the recent changes, but I would like to echo many other's sentiments. The bat form cost felt ok (though it could be drain), but it felt like the 2% hp cost felt pretty pointless. I didn't feel like there was that much of an incentive for me to be alive (mostly just regen access + transmutations) and the hp cost mostly discouraged any switching at all. The cost seemed quite high in comparison to other abilities that have a similar cost (DD healing, borg revivification). It seems like constant switching would be discouraged while allowing for some switching by allowing the cost for switching be stat drain or skill drain.

[MalcolmRose]

and adds costs: permanent HP for revivify

Please don't take this personally, but that is an exceptionally bad idea. Unless swapping forms gives you some sort of virtually guaranteed way out of bad situations, no one will ever use it if they are trying to play optimally. Permanent MP cost only works for Deep Dwarves because:

A) They are basically forced to use it once in awhile (in the early game, at least).

B) It has a massive impact on the game and can save you in otherwise guaranteed deadly situations.

Permanent HP cost is a much more game-impacting thing. There is a reason why Revivification is the only thing in the game that has a permanent hp cost attached to it - the reward you get is "you're virtually guaranteed to survive whatever bad situation you're currently in."

[sdynet]

7rune clear(https://webzook.net/soup/morgue/two-sta ... 021058.txt)

The new vampire was not a hassle, and I was able to enjoy the game comfortably. There need a little bit of buff/nerf, but I like the direction. But alive was a little disappointing. I changed about five times in the beginning of the game. But when I realized the cost of change, I stopped. I've never used change since. Because alive is no reason to use it.

[galbolle]

If switching to alive needs to be a thing and we want it to be strategically relevant when you do it, then keep the max-hp cost for switching, but prevent the undead form from using upstairs (zombies already have trouble with stairs, after all).

[ebering]

More revision:

The switching cost is now temporary frail. Bloodless Vp get -20% HP. I know many commenters wanted a buff to Alive, but in my opinion a nerf to bloodless is the better way to go.

[acoolguy]

A nerf to bloodless seems like a good change (instead of a buff to Alive). It ultimately depends on how strong we want vampires to be as a species. Interested in hearing what others think of the change. I probably won't be playing on the branch until CSDC is complete.

[petercordia]

I like it too, and I too won't be testing until after CSDC.

[nago]

Possibly -20% hp is a bit excessive, maybe -10hp would be a little more balanced but overall very neat solution. Kudos

[ebering]

This has been rebased to master, so the new throwing changes are now available. If you have an existing save on the experimental it might stop working, that's just life on an experimental.

Since new throwing is available I recommend trying a VpAs.

[giantrat]

This has been rebased to master

Do you mean that if I am on trunk I will get this new vampire?

[petercordia]

I think it means that all changes to trunk have been implemented in the experimental branch. So you'll have boomerangs in the vampire branch but no vampires in trunk.

[ebering]

I think it means that all changes to trunk have been implemented in the experimental branch. So you'll have boomerangs in the vampire branch but no vampires in trunk.

Yes, that is what it means.

[ebering]

Thanks for all your feedback; this has now been merged, with the bat form stat drain lowered slightly.

I'll keep an eye on this thread for a while for further feedback.

[duvessa]

Vampires need to have hunger, or some other timer like ghoul rot. This has always been an issue with the species, but it should be easier to address now that their alive/bloodless system doesn't involve time. The ability to spend a million turns per level is tedious, optimal, and overpowered on Mu, and it's tedious, optimal, and overpowered on Vp too.

I also think the species is still far too strong for most of the game. Regeneration is extremely strong on D:1 and very strong on D:2 as well. Even if you pick VpHu or VpCj to suffer their worst aptitudes, it still crushes HuHu or HuCj (and most other Hu and Cj) because of regeneration+fangs early on and then bat form later.
Undead status is not nearly a big enough disadvantage until you reach the point where a living character would get Borgnjor's and/or Death's Door. Especially when you allow them to use berserk and form spells despite being undead. Holy damage is rare and easily avoided; dispel undead is also rare, has short range, and doesn't even do that much damage.

As a first step, I suggest removing regeneration as a starting mutation for Vp, and instead giving it at the same XL that bat form is granted. This will make them much less ridiculous at the first couple XLs, although still unacceptably far better than human IMO. After that, perhaps docking their HP aptitude would help? It fits with the new frailty theme.

(Also, did anyone ever figure out why bloodless vampires get rC++ when the other two undead species only get rC+? It doesn't make any difference in practice but it is kind of weird.)

[argonaut]

Recently finished a VpEn - Gozag game. Undead form seemed much better than Alive. I switched around D2 and never switched back. I'd recommend some other limitations in Undead form, certainly dropping rC++ to rC+, and maybe adding MR- (low magic resistance was the biggest resistance problem so doubling down on that might give more incentive for Alive). I'd also suggest moving bat form to Alive to fit with the transmutation theme.

It was definitely nice to not have to deal with decaying potions of blood. Thanks!

[byrel]

Recently finished a VpEn - Gozag game. Undead form seemed much better than Alive. I switched around D2 and never switched back. I'd recommend some other limitations in Undead form, certainly dropping rC++ to rC+, and maybe adding MR- (low magic resistance was the biggest resistance problem so doubling down on that might give more incentive for Alive). I'd also suggest moving bat form to Alive to fit with the transmutation theme.

It was definitely nice to not have to deal with decaying potions of blood. Thanks!

To be fair, an En is probably the best case scenario for undead-form. You gain a significant amount of power from the stealth bonus, and you frequently need to reset fights.

I've played a few melee Vp runs, and Alive is definitely the way to go for most of the 3-rune game. Regen, fangs and not being frail. It's just better unless you're facing a lot of torment or can really leverage the stealth.

[duvessa]

I've played a few melee Vp runs, and Alive is definitely the way to go for most of the 3-rune game. Regen, fangs and not being frail. It's just better unless you're facing a lot of torment or can really leverage the stealth.

Funny, I think the opposite: in my opinion bloodless better than Alive for pretty much the whole game after you get access to bat form, because bat form is still an extremely overpowered ability. I don't even think the resistances or stealth are significant past like D:3, bat form is just that strong. I guess making bat form less extremely overpowered was outside the scope of the revamp, but I'd still like it to happen rather than tacking even more bonuses/penalties onto the states.

Also don't really care for the design of "bloodless is basically worse than Alive in every way except you get access to a strong escape ability" in the first place. If people liked playing that, they would use Zin and felids a hell of a lot more often than they do now. (Again, this was always a problem with Vp and the revamp didn't increase or decrease it.)