The Tavern

Sbranches are the worst-designed part of a 3 rune game and are almost always a slog to go through despite being the one portion of the game where branch availability is partially randomized. It'd be nice to fix that. While I support cutting one sbranch from the game entirely and shortening the remaining one, and did so in hellcrawl, the sbranches themselves could use a lot of work on mechanical theme and monster set. With that in mind, let's redesign swamp.

The way I see it, the main problems with swamp are related to its dependence on water (which is shared by another sbranch, so it's not even a unique use of bad mechanics). Swamp's level generator is spectacularly bad at making interesting layouts as well; people talk about shoals terrain being bad a lot but swamp's is equally bad if not worse imo. The monster set is also weak from a difficulty perspective, but that's a secondary concern.

I suggest the following as a starting point for new swamp design: remove all water from swamp and replace the entirety of swamp's floor with a new terrain type, swamp mud, which slows the player's (and only the player's) movement by 25% and does nothing else. Or, if you prefer, implement it as a status effect like ORB status; the player gets MUD and their movement is slowed by 25% while inside the swamp branch. This preserves swamp as a branch which affects the relative usefulness of movement in combat and the player's ability to retreat, but in a way that avoids most of the problems of water. I would suggest doing some form of iteration on the level layout generator as well because I cannot overstate how bad and lame swamp layouts are.

Here is a list of the current monster set, courtesy of mon-pick-data.h:

Spoiler: show

I suggest the following monster set changes. Remove slime creatures, shadows, ugly things, spiny frogs, swamp drakes, vampire mosquitos, insubstantial wisps, hornets, komodo dragons, and blink frogs from swamp. These are either overly weak monsters or ones that appear in a billion other places. You can buff swamp drakes instead of removing them if it's really important to have enemy meph cloud in this branch for some reason. Bog bodies should probably be buffed also. Add ogre mage bands to swamp, removing them from vaults and depths at the same time.

Post your swamp rework suggestions itt.

I would like to hear more about the badness of swamp layouts. I consider them above average, though that's not saying a lot.

Flowing water that moves the player and prevents movement against the current might work, though it may be difficult to visually convey the direction of flow. You'd probably need it to be very simple, like just one direction for an entire level. Could combine this with islands or logs here and there to allow resting. Could set a high background noise level to make luring monsters to your island difficult, have monsters that attack on the flank and so on. Of course, the water would have to be almost everywhere so you can't just avoid it.

Hellmonk wrote:most of the problems of water

What's wrong with shallow water?

Not that it's entirely relevant, but I come from a long line of swamp-dwellers - the water doesn't really flow. It mostly just sits and creates muck and waist-deep bogs of mud and grime. While the idea could be interesting, thematically it doesn't really fit. That is all.

I don't see those problems with Swamp. As is it limits movement considerably, it's scary even before rune level, I like the monsters variety and they work well together. The argument "they are in billion other places" does not look valid to me, having the same monsters in different branches is fine because they can result in different synergy. Alone Blink Frog is very dangerous in Lair but in Swamp it still can cause you interesting problems when part of some hydra pack. If alone Blink Frog is still generated in Swamp, it can be changed of course. Also there is a limited set of monster archetypes (fast melee with poison, slow melee with "stay there" attack etc.) and number of monsters to learn is already overwhelming for new players, it is better to give buffs to monsters (like spriggan druid and ironbrand convoker do) than to create new monster types just to increase damage.

Rast wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:most of the problems of water

What's wrong with shallow water?

* flying negates it
* it debuffs non-aquatic monsters (unless they're above some size I forget or probably some other edge case) so if you're fighting a vulnerable monster, flying is very strong
* for some reason hydras (and... only hydras?) move very fast in it

Basically, shallow water does a ton of stuff. A straight-up "when you are in this branch, you will move 25% slower" is clearer and doesn't have a bunch of weird side effects.

njvack wrote:* flying negates it
* it debuffs non-aquatic monsters (unless they're above some size I forget or probably some other edge case) so if you're fighting a vulnerable monster, flying is very strong
* for some reason hydras (and... only hydras?) move very fast in it

Flying negating it isn't really a problem imo, but I agree the other two are (the second one is a luring incentive and the third is unintuitive).

The biggest problem I have with shallow water is that autoexplore will put you in it. But maybe that is a problem with autoexplore, which should prioritize being on or near dry land.

njvack wrote:
Rast wrote:What's wrong with shallow water?

* flying negates it

That's fine. If flying is going to be in the game, it needs to have a beneficial effect. It's easy for the player to understand that flying above water means you aren't affected by being in water.

* it debuffs non-aquatic monsters (unless they're above some size I forget or probably some other edge case) so if you're fighting a vulnerable monster, flying is very strong

That's fine as well, assuming the debuff to the player is the same.

* for some reason hydras (and... only hydras?) move very fast in it

Aren't merfolk and crocodiles faster in water also?

Anyway, all this is an argument for simplifying shallow water, not for removing it from one branch and giving that branch a special effect that applies regardless of terrain.

So personally, I like that swamp has a mixture of deep, shallow and non-water tiles, and that water has the "problematic" effects you mention, also the fact that you are pushed off your square by swamp dragons is a good thing in the design of the branch as well.

Having your positioning (and that of the monsters your fighting) be relevant (In the form of the relevant debuff) is actually a good thing in my opinion. If the whole branch was "move 25% slower" then yes, it's much simpler and easier to understand, and also removes the possibility of using terrain tactically to your advantage.

"A branch where you move 25% slower" is not compelling to me at all, personally. It would definitely be *harder* than the current branch, which isn't a bad impulse (the current branch is not excessively easy, but it's not as hard as the shoals) but simpler isn't automatically better.

If anything, I'd like to disable flying in the swamps, forcing you to deal with water (games where I have permanent flying make the swamps significantly less interesting, and only slightly easier)

As OP said, a major problem with Swamp is the layout, but it's hard for me to put my finger on what makes it so bad. As a first stab at it

Lack of variety: all levels of the swamp are qualitatively the same
Lack of straight sharp edges: without sharp edges the tactics everywhere in the level are pretty similar; and when they are not straight it takes some more mental effort to remember which similar-looking squares are geometrically significant. (Lair also has this problem, but IMHO orc doesn't for some reason)

Some possible solutions:

Borrow from the shoals (e.g. a bunch of islands in a lake in a swamp)
More spriggan villages. Layouts with some disconnected constrained areas in the middle of open space can be very interesting, and spriggan villages in a clearing would provide a thematic excuse. Could additionally put spriggan towns in the middle of lakes of swamp mud, so that to retreat the player has to pass through crappy open terrain.
Rivers/forest trails. A long linear level, with all the upstairs at one end and the downstairs at the other end.
Merge the two S-branches: a swamp leading to the sea, or a spider's lair in the middle of a swamp, or a snake civilization on the shore. Make the total number of S-levels 6 instead of 8, and require passing through one to get to the next, ideally with some neato transition between them, with one rune vault halfway through and a second rune vault at the end. This would take care of the low-variety problem.

phloomp wrote:As OP said, a major problem with Swamp is the layout, but it's hard for me to put my finger on what makes it so bad. As a first stab at it

Lack of variety: all levels of the swamp are qualitatively the same
Lack of straight sharp edges: without sharp edges the tactics everywhere in the level are pretty similar; and when they are not straight it takes some more mental effort to remember which similar-looking squares are geometrically significant. (Lair also has this problem, but IMHO orc doesn't for some reason)
Some possible solutions:

Borrow from the shoals (e.g. a bunch of islands in a lake in a swamp)
More spriggan villages. Layouts with some disconnected constrained areas in the middle of open space can be very interesting, and spriggan villages in a clearing would provide a thematic excuse. Could additionally put spriggan towns in the middle of lakes of swamp mud, so that to retreat the player has to pass through crappy open terrain.
Rivers/forest trails. A long linear level, with all the upstairs at one end and the downstairs at the other end.
Merge the two S-branches: a swamp leading to the sea, or a spider's lair in the middle of a swamp, or a snake civilization on the shore. Make the total number of S-levels 6 instead of 8, and require passing through one to get to the next, ideally with some neato transition between them, with one rune vault halfway through and a second rune vault at the end. This would take care of the low-variety problem.

Maybe a lowish-effort partial solution to the layout "blandness" would be some swamp "island" vaults (I'm thinking small/medium sized swamp islands with some buildings on them, maybe one with a pair of islands connected by a land bridge)

phloomp wrote:As OP said, a major problem with Swamp is the layout, but it's hard for me to put my finger on what makes it so bad. As a first stab at it

Lack of variety: all levels of the swamp are qualitatively the same
Lack of straight sharp edges: without sharp edges the tactics everywhere in the level are pretty similar; and when they are not straight it takes some more mental effort to remember which similar-looking squares are geometrically significant. (Lair also has this problem, but IMHO orc doesn't for some reason)

I don't think you can count producing levels that are "qualitatively the same" against a given layout generator. In any case, they all have this "problem."

Lack of straight edges and sharp corners is good. Ragged, amorphous features create more varied tactical spaces than long straight edges and boxy or geometric shapes. A sharp corner leads to positions that are much better than others and you pretty much always use them. In conjunction with straight edges, you get a lot of bad positions that are approximately the same and obviously so to compete with the corner positions. These factors create tactical dead zones, for example corners of box-shaped rooms. You just don't go there in normal combat. The presence of straight edges makes corners easy to predict too, which is important in chase scenarios (e.g. in the aftermath of getting shafted).

By contrast, amorphous, ragged features like those in lair, spider, various cave layouts, and swamp, produce positions that are distinct but not so different in strength that it you would use one kind of position exclusively as in the sharp corner/straight edge situation. This is particularly true of rounded corners. (And of course, there's a lot of ways to do a rounded/ragged corner, where there's just two or three sharp corners.) When you're being chased, it's much less clear where you need to go to find a place to stand in these kinds of layouts.

Then there's interaction with line of sight. Straight edges and sharp corners are very regular and predictable this way. The amorphous/ragged layout makes more use of the possibilities of the LoS algorithm.

The goal in making layouts ought to be to create diverse tactical positions that have enough balance among them that the player will not always steer combat to the same kind of position. That means you don't want sharp corners or chokepoints.

As amorphous layouts go, my main criticism of swamp's would be that the scale of the features doesn't match well with the timescale of crawl combat (too big).

I don't think the swamps are some big problem mess that needs tons of changes and all these monsters ripped out. The layout used to be awful, but was already tightened not all that long ago. Anything can always use tweaks. Changing the water to mud to "differentiate" it from shoals seems mostly moot since for most characters, the counter to both is to use flying (unless you want to say flying does not help movement over mud, which makes no sense.) I'd much rather see design and development resources spent elsewhere.

tealizard wrote:Lack of straight edges and sharp corners is good... amorphous, ragged features like those in lair, spider, various cave layouts, and swamp, produce positions that are distinct but not so different in strength... When you're being chased, it's much less clear where you need to go to find a place to stand in these kinds of layouts.

Then there's interaction with line of sight. Straight edges and sharp corners are very regular and predictable this way. The amorphous/ragged layout makes more use of the possibilities of the LoS algorithm.

It's funny, I agree with all these points, I'm just not convinced that these are good rather than bad. Above all the LoS effects: I'm not smart enough to predict how LoS will work in Swamp (at least, not without playing around with exclusions), so I either ignore it or arbitrarily choose a few squares, memorize what's in LoS from those squares, and try to fight on them.

I see two ways this can go:

The geometry in Swamp, Lair etc. is part of what makes crawl a fun puzzle and should be hard (and maybe progressively harder as the player progresses). In this case LoS should be made to matter more: de-emphasize effects that make it hard to move or stay put (trample, constriction, harpoon shot, shallow water) and emphasize ranged and AoE effects (more thorn hunters, stronger bog bodies).
The geometry in Swamp, Lair etc. is too complicated to be fun for un-augmented humans and should be either simplified or interrupted by local regularities.

njvack wrote:
Rast wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:most of the problems of water

What's wrong with shallow water?

* flying negates it
* it debuffs non-aquatic monsters (unless they're above some size I forget or probably some other edge case) so if you're fighting a vulnerable monster, flying is very strong
* for some reason hydras (and... only hydras?) move very fast in it

Basically, shallow water does a ton of stuff. A straight-up "when you are in this branch, you will move 25% slower" is clearer and doesn't have a bunch of weird side effects.

Flying is mostly useless otherwise so I don't see the issue with it having a legit use case.

In addition to hydras I believe snapping turtle & alligator variant are significantly faster in water than on land.

I also challenge the notion that swamp is particularly less dangerous than other S branches. In my own experience I THINK I've died the most in spider? Not sure...S branch deaths are less common for me in general. What do average death statisctics say for .23 and/or trunk? Unless I'm squishy to ranged or there's literally 0-1 possible MR options in my game I usually find swamp and shoals comparable in difficulty.

Also OP proposal of mud would be awful for species like spriggans/felid, which can at least plan around swamp right now but would be completely hosed by fast enemies in swamp. While they could just straight up skip entering the branch and get a different 3rd rune I'm not sure having such a large difference in S branch difficulty is desirable. It's akin to how spider is incredibly dangerous for mummies unless they're built specifically against it, but more extreme.

If swamp drakes don't get removed, I would love for something to be done about how you basically just cannot take beogh orcs into swamp because if they ever get confused(highly likely) they will probably wander into water and instantly die

Shard1697 wrote:If swamp drakes don't get removed, I would love for something to be done about how you basically just cannot take beogh orcs into swamp because if they ever get confused(highly likely) they will probably wander into water and instantly die

Seems like the easiest fix for this would just be to replace all deep water in swamp with shallow water or trees/rocks. Swamps aren't particularly noted for being deep, after all, and this could be another way to make Swamp a little more different from Shoals.

Problem with using trees/rocks is breaking LoS and greatly limiting monster pathing. Swamp w/o flight/aquatic is threatening in part because pathing back to stairs is often arduous/awkward while most enemies can rapidly close on you through terrain you normally can't traverse. Having hydras path around rocks/trees rather than rapidly closing over deep water would be a significant downgrade to threat in swamp.

I'm not sure the Beogh orc have a good solution, or need one. You already have smiting + water walk for swamp when following Beogh, and these both make the area considerably easier than normal. Also this is far from the only area where orcs can be killed nearly instantly, so it's not a unique problem to swamp.

I've always felt that Swamp is a more solid design than Shoals. It's a synthesis of narrative theme (a swampy environment) and mechanical effects (you have to use land effectively to avoid getting bogged down). Shoals has a bunch of weird RNG mechanics (the constantly shifting water level), an emphasis on monster rules that are usually inconsistent with player rules (deep water is usually wholly impassible to the player), and a need to put defense above offense (a check of whether you can survive several turns of being pelted by merfolk and fauns).

The only problems I'd say with swamp are:
- There aren't enough vaults to vary things up
- It could probably use another "thematic" unique monster similar to how Snake has Vashnia (exclusive) and Aizul (wandering) - why is it that Agnes can appear in Snake and Spider but not Swamp? (might be because having a fast+strong in Swamp/Shoals is too deadly? might an artifact from before 2010 when she was a human?)
- Difficulty is too concentrated on thorn hunters. They could probably use a slight nerf in exchange for one or two mid-tier threats like alligators or spriggan riders getting buffed

FR: grant water walking to allied orcs with Beogh.

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