Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables


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Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 12:31

Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Make a button that can irrevocably turn any branded javelins or tomahawks into unbranded ones:
  • keeps players' sanity intact when dealing with lots of different types of throwables;
  • no balance problems - players voluntarily downgrade their equipment;
  • easy to implement.
You carefully remove branded tips off your exploding tomahawks.
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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 13:06

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

This will result in "why didn't the game show me a confirmation dialog when I accidentally clicked that button on javelins of penetration" threads. I think it can be better to generate unbranded javelins instead of returning/poison/steel/silver ones.
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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 13:08

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

It's still going to be better to keep your branded throwing shit and keeping it still costs nothing but hassle. Things like exploding tomahawks just shouldn't exist.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 13:19

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

VeryAngryFelid wrote:This will result in "why didn't the game show me a confirmation dialog when I accidentally clicked that button on javelins of penetration" threads..

Making skyscrapers instead of one storey buildings will result in people dying when falling out of windows.
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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 14:33

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Yermak wrote:Making skyscrapers instead of one storey buildings will result in people dying when falling out of windows.


Don't get me wrong, I like your suggestion, it is definitely better than current situation. I just think that probably devs should not spend their precious time on implementing some non-trivial mechanic when they can get similar result with much less effort. As a bonus it will save us, players, lots of key presses and mind energy as well. Do you really want to press that button every time you pickup some branded javelins?
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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 01:23

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Remember Repel missiles? We know. We prefer useful things, even if they are annoying. There are only two measures we can take. To remove either usefulness or annoyance.

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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 03:10

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Goldify throwable items. Increase stock of throwable items and give them a 100% mulch rate.

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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 04:48

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

To avoid repeated meaningless offers, I will list the problems of throwing items.
Inventory management: There are 22 types of throwables. This makes it difficult to manage inventory.
Micro-management: You have to go around picking up ammo like money. This action increases the probability of exposing you to danger(moving monster, traps, hell effect) and wastes your turn. And it causes tiredness.
0 skill trainer: You throw throwables without training your throwing skills. This is annoying but cannot stop because it is useful.
Maintained monster's ability to long-range attack: Even after the improvement, monsters should be able to perform a similar level of long-range attack ability as they are now.

The improved system should be able to answer the following questions:
1. Don't you take up a lot of inventory?
2. You do not have to go around to get ammo?
3. Can you throw it over the lava?
4. Is it useless if you don't train?
5. Is the improved system as useful as it is now?
6. Does Merfolk still shoot 5-15 javelins, and the rock giant shoot 3-7 rocks(an amount similar to that of the present)?
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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 10:12

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

My take is somewhat different. All brands of a certain thrown item are in the same inventory slot.

  Code:
a - 14 Javelins - 3 Steel - 4 Silver


Use p* to rotate different brands when quivered. I would probably make this a free action. If that's not OK, just use the normal (Q)uiver menu to handle different brands.

*assuming it's still free
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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 15:15

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

sdynet wrote:To avoid repeated meaningless offers, I will list the problems of throwing items.
Inventory management: There are 22 types of throwables. This makes it difficult to manage inventory.
Micro-management: You have to go around picking up ammo like money. This action increases the probability of exposing you to danger(moving monster, traps, hell effect) and wastes your turn. And it causes tiredness.
0 skill trainer: You throw throwables without training your throwing skills. This is annoying but cannot stop because it is useful.
Maintained monster's ability to long-range attack: Even after the improvement, monsters should be able to perform a similar level of long-range attack ability as they are now.

The improved system should be able to answer the following questions:
1. Don't you take up a lot of inventory?
2. You do not have to go around to get ammo?
3. Can you throw it over the lava?
4. Is it useless if you don't train?
5. Is the improved system as useful as it is now?
6. Does Merfolk still shoot 5-15 javelins, and the rock giant shoot 3-7 rocks(an amount similar to that of the present)?



no ammo, just "weapons" (revised):

sling & pouch of bullets
bow & quiver of arrows (accurate at medium and long range, but not at short range)
hand crossbow & quiver of bolts (accurate at short and medium range, not long range)
crossbow & quiver of bolts
bag of rocks (more rare to find, minimal damage)
pouch of poison darts (short range only ~4 tiles, accurate, with poison)
pack of tomahawks (chance to stun an enemy)
pack of javelins (chance to penetrate which tapers off with # of targets and distance)
pile of boulders (make it a two-handed weapon, it hits a single target really hard but is not accurate at long range)

These weapons come with limited of number of shots before they need to be reloaded (like tome, except they aren't seperate launchers+packs.) The amount of shots could vary from weapon to weapon, but I'd be careful about adding that much complexity, I think simple is better in this case. It should take a non-trivial amount of time to reload your ammo (more than 0.5), probably something more like 2-5. It should also take longer to wield these weapons than 0.5. Really all weapon swaps should probably take longer - or the time should be associated with the weapon type. For instance, swapping to a dagger takes 0.5, but swapping to a long bow takes 5 turns. Swapping to a bag of darts might take 1 turn... etc. and so on.

1. Doesn't take up a lot of inventory, if training throwing there are only a maximum number of 5 weapons, even fewer if slings, bows or crossbows.
2. You don't pick up ammo, you reload. Options can be set to auto-reload when resting, etc.
3. Can you throw it over the lava? I don't understand the criteria. Yes, you can throw over lava. If you mean, will ammo get destroyed? It could be yes or no. No, it doesn't have to get destroyed, but yes the total number of shots your weapon can fire before you must reload could be reduced by 1 for each time you fire in a manner where the ammo should be destroyed by something like lava. The total # of shots could also reduce over time like the mulching effect, such that the weapon wears out over time. Personally, I'd prefer no item destruction.
4. Nothing is ever totally useless even if you don't train for it, otherwise level 1 characters would be dead upon starting the game. People use daggers untrained on D:1 and they aren't useless at 0 skill, they just aren't as good as if they were a higher skill. The problem of ranged weapons being always useful at even 0 skill ties with the time it takes to ready them as weapons, because currently it's too easy to swap back and forth. If each weapon in the game had it's own amount of time it took to get it ready (wield it), and ranged weapons were on the slower side, the problem of ranged weapons would be no more annoying than needing to decide if you want to carry a dagger and a spear at once in inventory (in case one might be more useful than the other at different times.) Also, adding a unique amount of time each weapon takes to get ready would add additional tactics to the game. The swap times might also be affected by the weapon skill, so if you were super trained at bows, that longbow might take 1 turn to ready instead of 5 turns.
5. As useful as it is now? I'd say so, and probably more interesting as well.
6. The merfolk with javelins or the cyclops would be bound by all the same rules as players, they would have a maximum number of shots before needing to reload. The total number of shots they get could be what it is now if the # of shots in their weapons are randomized and match the current values. They might not ever totally run out of ammo, but they could be faced with a longish reload time if they don't switch to melee.

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Post Thursday, 11th April 2019, 02:04

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

svendre wrote:These weapons come with limited of number of shots before they need to be reloaded (like tome, except they aren't seperate launchers+packs.) The amount of shots could vary from weapon to weapon, but I'd be careful about adding that much complexity, I think simple is better in this case. It should take a non-trivial amount of time to reload your ammo (more than 0.5), probably something more like 2-5. It should also take longer to wield these weapons than 0.5. Really all weapon swaps should probably take longer - or the time should be associated with the weapon type. For instance, swapping to a dagger takes 0.5, but swapping to a long bow takes 5 turns. Swapping to a bag of darts might take 1 turn... etc. and so on.


In my case, this has charge like you think, but a little different. I think adding a separate action to the reload is like adding another micro-management. I want to minimize micro-management.
I tried to solve this problem in the following way: 'Your ammo pack does not regenerate when monsters are visible. But your ammo pack do charge full reload when monsters are not visible.'

svendre wrote:4. Nothing is ever totally useless even if you don't train for it, otherwise level 1 characters would be dead upon starting the game. People use daggers untrained on D:1 and they aren't useless at 0 skill, they just aren't as good as if they were a higher skill. The problem of ranged weapons being always useful at even 0 skill ties with the time it takes to ready them as weapons, because currently it's too easy to swap back and forth. If each weapon in the game had it's own amount of time it took to get it ready (wield it), and ranged weapons were on the slower side, the problem of ranged weapons would be no more annoying than needing to decide if you want to carry a dagger and a spear at once in inventory (in case one might be more useful than the other at different times.) Also, adding a unique amount of time each weapon takes to get ready would add additional tactics to the game. The swap times might also be affected by the weapon skill, so if you were super trained at bows, that longbow might take 1 turn to ready instead of 5 turns.


The difference in usefulness between melee and range weapons, which are zero skill, is very different. You can use electric brand dagger without training short blade skill. But in this case, you must be close to the enemy and be prepared for damage if an attack is missed. But when you throw Tomahawk without training, there is no risk to you if the attack is missed. When the range is more than two, when the damage is more than one, people will be bothered to use it.
My solution is either.
When the skill level is 0, the range is 1. Or When the skill level is 0, the charge is 0. There are many other ways, but I think these two are the most intuitive. And as someone else said, Hunter doesn't start with zero skill, so it's okay.

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Post Thursday, 11th April 2019, 02:27

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Players can and do use wands at zero skill evocations. Is that a problem?

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Post Thursday, 11th April 2019, 04:04

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Rast wrote:Players can and do use wands at zero skill evocations. Is that a problem?


That's not a problem, of course. That's expendable, isn't it? To use Wand in zero skill is to dispose of better forces cheaply. This is a very simple matter. The usefulness of an item is inversely proportional to its frequent use and rarity.
Why can healing potions be used in Zero Skills? It's very rare, and it's not powerful enough to fill all the hp.
Why can the lamp be used in Zero Skills? This is relatively rare, and it is not often used.
Why can the wand be used in Zero Skills? This is not common, and it is expendable.

Why can not the throwables be used in Zero Skills? Because it is very common and can be used very often, and there is no (real) quantity limit. we did not pay any cost.

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Post Thursday, 11th April 2019, 15:21

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

In my proposal, I did address the zero skill issue, there was a cost to using untrained ranged weapons (and thrown become packs that are wielded as weapons): the time it takes to swap weapons (and that being adjusted per weapon.)

Here are scenarios:

You come around the corner and monster starts at range 5... you have bow readied, with zero skill, so you fire untrained and get a lousy result. If you keep firing, you keep getting lousy (untrained) results. But the monster closes to melee, now you have a bow readied which is poor at short range (in my proposal), and it will take some turns to ready a sword or something. So, now you may get beat on if you try to change your weapon mid-combat. You *might* have been able to get a free shot or two in on time and swap to a dagger or another weapon in time to not lose damage, but yes, you did lose damage because in the time you took to change weapons, you could have used some wand charges or cast a spell.

then...

You come around the corner with a bow readied and monster starts at range 1 or 2.... now, your decision to keep the untrained bow readied for the next fight works against you. It's a problem until you get your skilled weapon readied.

then...

You come around the corner with untrained bow readied and there is a monster with a ranged capability stronger than yours. Having that bow readied is a liability because you need that monster at close range and your melee weapon in hand.

---

So, a player has freedom to choose, and there are pros and cons to trying to get extra mileage out of weapon swapping, particularly where ranged attacks are concerned. This to me is a better design and will taper the current incentives that it is always beneficial (but more hassle) to collect ammo and launchers and try to use them all with the total sum of penalty being nothing more than a 0.5 turn weapon swap to your trained melee weapon. This also solves a lot of early game goofiness of carrying every melee weapon type and brand (untrained) being fairly optimal play (but annoying). Keep in mind that I think the time to ready a weapon ought to be reduced by skill so more detailed weapon swapping can still be in the game, just later.

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Post Thursday, 11th April 2019, 16:35

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

My vote is on subcategories, so you have one pool of "javelins", "needles", tomahawks" respectively and have an option to re-order these similarly to how you re-order nemelex decks using the god ability.

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Post Friday, 12th April 2019, 01:15

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

TheMeInTeam wrote:My vote is on subcategories, so you have one pool of "javelins", "needles", tomahawks" respectively and have an option to re-order these similarly to how you re-order nemelex decks using the god ability.


I'm sorry but this is vague to understand. Can you give me an example?

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Post Friday, 12th April 2019, 01:56

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

svendre wrote:In my proposal, I did address the zero skill issue, there was a cost to using untrained ranged weapons (and thrown become packs that are wielded as weapons): the time it takes to swap weapons (and that being adjusted per weapon.)

Here are scenarios:

You come around the corner and monster starts at range 5... you have bow readied, with zero skill, so you fire untrained and get a lousy result. If you keep firing, you keep getting lousy (untrained) results. But the monster closes to melee, now you have a bow readied which is poor at short range (in my proposal), and it will take some turns to ready a sword or something. So, now you may get beat on if you try to change your weapon mid-combat. You *might* have been able to get a free shot or two in on time and swap to a dagger or another weapon in time to not lose damage, but yes, you did lose damage because in the time you took to change weapons, you could have used some wand charges or cast a spell.

then...

You come around the corner with a bow readied and monster starts at range 1 or 2.... now, your decision to keep the untrained bow readied for the next fight works against you. It's a problem until you get your skilled weapon readied.

then...

You come around the corner with untrained bow readied and there is a monster with a ranged capability stronger than yours. Having that bow readied is a liability because you need that monster at close range and your melee weapon in hand.

---

So, a player has freedom to choose, and there are pros and cons to trying to get extra mileage out of weapon swapping, particularly where ranged attacks are concerned. This to me is a better design and will taper the current incentives that it is always beneficial (but more hassle) to collect ammo and launchers and try to use them all with the total sum of penalty being nothing more than a 0.5 turn weapon swap to your trained melee weapon. This also solves a lot of early game goofiness of carrying every melee weapon type and brand (untrained) being fairly optimal play (but annoying). Keep in mind that I think the time to ready a weapon ought to be reduced by skill so more detailed weapon swapping can still be in the game, just later.


Ok. I'll summarize this.
1. Throwables is all weapon.
2. Remove the brand of the ammo. Give a unique ability for ranged weapons.
3. Ammo uses a method of charging. It's not infinite ammo and it needs to reload. (Does the ammo magazine increase with an increase in skill levels?)
- Way 1: Press the reload button. (A separate button or .button)
- Way 2: reload if the enemy is not in your sight
4. The ranged weapon switching turn is 5 in zero skill and 0.5 as the skill level increases.
Is it correct what I summed up?

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Post Friday, 12th April 2019, 16:05

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

sdynet wrote:
svendre wrote:In my proposal, I did address the zero skill issue, there was a cost to using untrained ranged weapons (and thrown become packs that are wielded as weapons): the time it takes to swap weapons (and that being adjusted per weapon.)

Here are scenarios:

You come around the corner and monster starts at range 5... you have bow readied, with zero skill, so you fire untrained and get a lousy result. If you keep firing, you keep getting lousy (untrained) results. But the monster closes to melee, now you have a bow readied which is poor at short range (in my proposal), and it will take some turns to ready a sword or something. So, now you may get beat on if you try to change your weapon mid-combat. You *might* have been able to get a free shot or two in on time and swap to a dagger or another weapon in time to not lose damage, but yes, you did lose damage because in the time you took to change weapons, you could have used some wand charges or cast a spell.

then...

You come around the corner with a bow readied and monster starts at range 1 or 2.... now, your decision to keep the untrained bow readied for the next fight works against you. It's a problem until you get your skilled weapon readied.

then...

You come around the corner with untrained bow readied and there is a monster with a ranged capability stronger than yours. Having that bow readied is a liability because you need that monster at close range and your melee weapon in hand.

---

So, a player has freedom to choose, and there are pros and cons to trying to get extra mileage out of weapon swapping, particularly where ranged attacks are concerned. This to me is a better design and will taper the current incentives that it is always beneficial (but more hassle) to collect ammo and launchers and try to use them all with the total sum of penalty being nothing more than a 0.5 turn weapon swap to your trained melee weapon. This also solves a lot of early game goofiness of carrying every melee weapon type and brand (untrained) being fairly optimal play (but annoying). Keep in mind that I think the time to ready a weapon ought to be reduced by skill so more detailed weapon swapping can still be in the game, just later.


Ok. I'll summarize this.
1. Throwables is all weapon.
2. Remove the brand of the ammo. Give a unique ability for ranged weapons.
3. Ammo uses a method of charging. It's not infinite ammo and it needs to reload. (Does the ammo magazine increase with an increase in skill levels?)
- Way 1: Press the reload button. (A separate button or .button)
- Way 2: reload if the enemy is not in your sight
4. The ranged weapon switching turn is 5 in zero skill and 0.5 as the skill level increases.
Is it correct what I summed up?


1. yes
2. yes
3. yes, the ammo magazine size does not increase with skill, it is either always the same per weapon type, or may vary in size with a random factor per weapon (option)
-I think the ammo should only reload with a command issued which takes time (perhaps 1-5 turns, and probably skill lowers reload time) This adds tactics to game play.
- It seems highly problematic to try and implement any automatic enemy-not--in-sight reload feature (example: invisibility, etc.) Adding an additional automatic reload during rest turns option seems reasonable to cut down on all non-tactical key presses.
4. yes, this looks good 5 turns at 0 skill, down to 0.5 turns at some amount of skill, possibly equal to the skill it takes to reach min delay with the weapon.

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Post Saturday, 13th April 2019, 08:10

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

svendre wrote:3. yes, the ammo magazine size does not increase with skill, it is either always the same per weapon type, or may vary in size with a random factor per weapon (option)
-I think the ammo should only reload with a command issued which takes time (perhaps 1-5 turns, and probably skill lowers reload time) This adds tactics to game play.
- It seems highly problematic to try and implement any automatic enemy-not--in-sight reload feature (example: invisibility, etc.) Adding an additional automatic reload during rest turns option seems reasonable to cut down on all non-tactical key presses.

The inclusion of automatic reloading is essential. With the help of a friendly person, I played a game with a patch of manual reloading. The game made me realize that manual reloading is a annoying.

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Post Monday, 15th April 2019, 16:21

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

sdynet wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:My vote is on subcategories, so you have one pool of "javelins", "needles", tomahawks" respectively and have an option to re-order these similarly to how you re-order nemelex decks using the god ability.


I'm sorry but this is vague to understand. Can you give me an example?


When you quiver javelins, you can arrange in what order to use javelins that you're carrying (with an easy way to keep previous ordering so this isn't onerous on #inputs). "Javelins" takes up one inventory slot.

Same for tomahawks and needles.

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Post Thursday, 30th January 2020, 22:10

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

[Changed Point]
All ammo is checked for the chance of being destroyed when fired, and will not be consumed in inventory unless destroyed.
The ammo change their names to all "ammo" packs, and the probability of destruction is adjusted to match the packs.
For example, a rock pack has a 10% chance to destroy it when throwing it. And arrow pack is 4%.
(In fact, it doesn't matter what the name is, but the fact that the number of fired arrows does not decrease can make you feel uncomfortable.)

[Improvement Point]
* You don't have to go around to pick up ammo after battle because you do destruction check when you fire ammo.
* You can shoot at deep water, lava, slime walls, and so on without worrying about the pick up of ammo.
* This is not the way to increase the quantity in proportion to the probability of destruction. So this does not create 'a problem where the Sandblast or Stick to Snake magic resources are virtually infinite.'
* Monsters can use the same system and can hold the right amount of ammo to match the existing amount. Here the cyclops do not appear with 80 rocks. Also Conversely, the player cannot throw Atropa and Curare 300 times in a row to the enemy.

[Unsolved problem]
Currently, assuming an arrow is destroyed once in every 10 times, there are nine left even if one is lost. But in the changed version, if destroyed at once, the remaining nine launch opportunities will disappear as well. I'm not sure how many arrows I have to pack in one pack, and how much of a pack the probability of destruction is. I need more data.

[Download link]
For now, I have given all the ammo a return brand and deleted the return animation(Temporary action). Ammo are easily destroyed and have unconditionally penetrated, but you will be able to experience what improvements are.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fFMQU85Wa_LYlcxnZW2kHG-2rchf-k2n

[Githurb link]
https://github.com/sdynet/crawl/commit/a9dd25fd6aa8a6a9d753f16faa0236601eb4a45b

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 31st January 2020, 14:21

Re: Simple solution to inventory problem with throwables

Durable ammo is only interesting if you can't afford to retrieve it - because there are dangerous uniques, statues, or maybe the target is in deep water. In all other cases ammo that stays there and needs to be picked up has no (positive) impact on gameplay. In the first case, it still only matters if you had low supply to begin with. If you leave some ammo on a dangerous level but still have 36 silver boomerangs, that's not interesting.

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