Rework buff spells into god abilities

[stormdragon]

Right now buff spells are a big problem, because either they're good enough to cast every fight (or even recast to have on eternally), or they're not good enough to be worth learning at all. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground for buff spells. Buffs that hurt you (Silence, Death's Door, etc) are much better, but unfortunately not all buff spells are like that.

Buffs as god abilities, however, seem to work fairly well; the fact that they cost a strategic resource, piety, prevents them from being spammed and creates some decision as to when to use them.

So, I suggest removing all buff spells (except the ones that hurt you) but re-making some of them into new god abilities for existing gods (and probably a new god for transmutations).

As a consequence of that, the Charms and Transmutations schools, the Skald and Transmuter backgrounds, and the books of Battle, Changes, and Transfigurations would be removed.

Below is an example of where each spell could go, but please bear in mind that I am looking for discussion about the plan, not so much about what to do with each spell individually.

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NOTE: Ataumintornst is the hypothetical new god of transmutation.

Confusing Touch - Elyvilon or Ru

Infusion - Okawaru, The Shining One, Sif Muna, Uskayaw, or Wu Jian Council

Shroud of Golubria - Lugonu

Ozocubu's Armour - Ashenzari, Beogh, Cheibriados, or Qazlal

Portal Projectile - Lugonu

Regeneration - Ataumintornst, Kikubaaqudgha, Jiyva, or Yredelemnul
(Probably just remove, because the effect is part of Trog's Hand)

Spectral Weapon - Hepliaklqana or Okawaru
(Probably just remove, because the effect is similar to Shadow Mimic)

Excruciating Wounds - Kikubaaqudgha or Yredelemnul
(Probably just remove, because the effect is similar to Kiku's pain gift)

Iskenderun's Battlesphere - Vehumet
(Probably just remove, because the effect is similar to Shadow Mimic)

Deflect Missiles - Beogh or Qazlal
(Probably just remove, because the effect is part of Storm Shield)

Invisibility - Dithmenos or Ru
(Probably just remove, because the effect is part of Shadow Form)

Ring of Flames - Qazlal or Vehumet
(Probably just remove, because the effect is similar to Storm Shield and Cleansing Flame)

Dragon's Call - Wu Jian Council

Beastly Appendage, Spider Form, Ice Form, Blade Hands, Hydra Form, Statue Form, Dragon Form, and Necromutation - Ataumintornst

[Sorcerous]

Right now buff spells are a big problem, because either they're good enough to cast every fight (or even recast to have on eternally), or they're not good enough to be worth learning at all. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground for buff spells. Buffs that hurt you (Silence, Death's Door, etc) are much better, but unfortunately not all buff spells are like that.

Buffs as god abilities, however, seem to work fairly well; the fact that they cost a strategic resource, piety, prevents them from being spammed and creates some decision as to when to use them.

So, I suggest removing all buff spells (except the ones that hurt you) but re-making some of them into new god abilities for existing gods (and probably a new god for transmutations).

As a consequence of that, the Charms and Transmutations schools, the Skald and Transmuter backgrounds, and the books of Battle, Changes, and Transfigurations would be removed.

Below is an example of where each spell could go, but please bear in mind that I am looking for discussion about the plan, not so much about what to do with each spell individually.

Discussion about the plan? Sure, let's get to it. What exactly is this change supposed to achieve? You have a proposed development that would cut away two entire skills, and would require either a massive rework or removal of items while replacing spell choices with deity expansions. I do not understand the benefit of going in the opposite direction of what guidelines do exist in terms of DCSS in general.

Not to mention the very real hits you'd deliver to some of the most difficult existing species if they were deprived of utility and survival spells, unless they chose an extremely specific god that also ruins the design distinction of the three existing ones that govern spells and aspects of magic. The way you conflated specific spells as "X divine passive or active does this anyway, just remove or bind to a god" is particularly short-sighted: because not everyone will pick those gods in the first place. Demigods in particular would get shafted, yet again. Worse still, this would also skew god choices for all others by making them overly specialised, which is another thing the devs have repeatedly stated is not good for the overall game. The entire point of gods that support a variety of builds is that players can come up with fun ideas of their own, without being forced into choices. And taking away or locking features as versatile as these would be exactly that: you'd devalue choice.

If this is some fork proposal, go right ahead. But if this is something you honestly think is good for DCSS as it is, I strongly disagree.

[stormdragon]

What exactly is this change supposed to achieve?

Put a strategic limitation on buff spells that are powerful, but annoying to use all the time.

[duvessa]

You have a proposed development that would cut away two entire skills

What's wrong with that?

would require either a massive rework or removal of items

How so? I mean, you'd have to change some spellbooks, sure, but I can't think of any other changes to items that would be needed.

[petercordia]

I prefer the Hellcrawl solution.
(which is to make buffs cost max-mp until they are canceled.)

[stormdragon]

To add a little perspective, imagine the opposite idea. Say we wanted to make Heroism, Trog's Hand, and Shadow Mimic into spells. This would be pretty bad, since if you had those spells you would spam them all the time; what makes them interesting to play with is the strategic limitation.

To add a little more perspective, remember that this was already done with Haste. It used to be a spell, now it only exists as a potion. Consumable cost is simply another form of strategic limitation.

[chequers]

Why should existing gods become stronger?

Also, it would be sad to lose most of the backgrounds which start with a book and weapon. It's a good archetype which is already poorly represented in Crawl's starting screen.

[petercordia]

To add a little perspective, imagine the opposite idea. Say we wanted to make Heroism, Trog's Hand, and Shadow Mimic into spells. This would be pretty bad, since if you had those spells you would spam them all the time; what makes them interesting to play with is the strategic limitation.

I could imagine these god powers as spells. Heroism ~ 7 charms, Shadow Mimic ~ 8 charms/hexes anyone? Heroism is basically spammable anyway.
Actually the thing that's nice about shadow mimic is that it's a passive - it's always active if you have the required piety and doesn't require recasting.

[duvessa]

Not to mention the very real hits you'd deliver to some of the most difficult existing species if they were deprived of utility and survival spells

Why should existing gods become stronger?

You can bog down any suggestion with "this will make X stronger" and "this will make Y weaker". If it makes X too strong and Y too weak as a result, you can just nerf X and buff Y. We're not exactly disrupting some delicate balance here, Crawl's gods and species already have horrifyingly massive differences in power. The proposal as written doesn't even buff any of the strong gods except Kiku, and the only species it abnormally hurts is demigod, which would still easily be stronger than human after the change.

Increasing the complexity of gods is a concern, of course; perhaps it would be better to just remove all the spells without compensation. In particular, whatever happens to the other spells, it's not worth trying to save Infusion and Shroud of Golubria if you're removing Skald; those spells are kludges that were added solely so DCSS could have a charms-based background. If you don't have said background, then those spells are just clutter.

You should include form spells in the "buffs that hurt you" category (except for Beastly Appendage, which should die). This proposal will be a much easier sell if it doesn't involve introducing an entire new god.

[sdynet]

I prefer the Hellcrawl solution.
(which is to make buffs cost max-mp until they are canceled.)

If that's not enough, what about setting a little max-hp to an expense?
A lot of max-mp and a little max-hp. I think that's enough. If you set the conditions too harsh, you'll be tired and boring.
Anyway, I agree with 'Put a strategic limitation on buff spells that are powerful, but annoying to use all the time.' to a certain extent.

[Hellmonk]

So obviously the current state of buffs in crawl is bad and should get revised, but I think it's worth pointing out that the remainder of crawl's spell system isn't compelling either. Once you take out buffs you're left with 6 varieties of direct damage, allies, hexes, and some miscellaneous emergency/escape spell stuff, and none of these are that interesting except possibly the last one. If you want crawl magic to be good you've gotta dig a lot deeper than buff spell revision. Worth tackling a broader concept of crawl magic reform imo; we need to step back and look at what crawl magic is supposed to be and consider radical changes to the system.

Also worth noting that the problem with buff recasting is in part caused by excessive tactical space available to the player, and this is also a root cause of lots of other tedium problems. A tighter game with more meaningful constraints on disengagement and between-combat actions could make big improvements here, though I don't expect any development in this direction to occur.

[stormdragon]

You should include form spells in the "buffs that hurt you" category (except for Beastly Appendage, which should die). This proposal will be a much easier sell if it doesn't involve introducing an entire new god.

Form spells have a downside that comes with the benefit, but you can opt out of the deal at any time, so it never really hurts you unless you forget to opt out. So players who have a useful form spell spam the hell out of it, and rightly so. Even Swiftness is more likely to hurt you than a form spell. Ozocubu's Armour is sort of like a form where you get bonus AC but can't move...until you decide to just move and let go of the bonus.

But yeah, I agree that an incremental approach probably makes more sense.

[svendre]

So obviously the current state of buffs in crawl is bad and should get revised, but I think it's worth pointing out that the remainder of crawl's spell system isn't compelling either. Once you take out buffs you're left with 6 varieties of direct damage, allies, hexes, and some miscellaneous emergency/escape spell stuff, and none of these are that interesting except possibly the last one. If you want crawl magic to be good you've gotta dig a lot deeper than buff spell revision. Worth tackling a broader concept of crawl magic reform imo; we need to step back and look at what crawl magic is supposed to be and consider radical changes to the system.

Also worth noting that the problem with buff recasting is in part caused by excessive tactical space available to the player, and this is also a root cause of lots of other tedium problems. A tighter game with more meaningful constraints on disengagement and between-combat actions could make big improvements here, though I don't expect any development in this direction to occur.

I agree that a more radical overhaul of magic in general is what is needed. I do not think removing a bunch of spells and pushing them into god abilities would solve the problem. There might be a middle-ground to make the game play smoother and balance things out better without going all out, but I sure wouldn't want to work out what that would be with no hope of it being implemented. I wouldn't mind doing a bit of development myself, but I'm not up for, and probably not up to speed enough coding for a full fork like Hellmonk did. I may check out your fork though, especially if that new super random traps system goes live.

One thing that turns me off is when too many things are stripped out of a game left and right in the name of improving it. I think that it's a strength of a game to have a lot of strategic and tactical options combined with difficult choices. Of course it's more difficult to have more, and have it balanced and all working together without tedium. That's why there are a million crappy games out there to quickly lose interest in.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Hellmonk,
Could you please give an example of interesting spell or better an example of a game with lots of interesting spells?

[tealizard]

What he's saying about spaces in crawl is important. The lack of structure to crawl levels and the extreme degree of control that gives the player limits the possibilities for effects. You have to consider the virtually unlimited ability of the player to define the parameters of an encounter. It also limits the possibilities for distinctions between effects.

In my opinion, the structured space has to come before any radical new spell system and that means something new has to appear to get much past where hellcrawl has gotten. There's room for improvement, things like low-targeting conjurations and hexes, finishing the job on duration spells (here I think of summons mostly), which are too radical for dcss, but which address issues that are more in the realm of dcss thinking. The next big step is reevaluating effects in the more structured setting.

[Implojin]

I just want to point out that as long as movement is linked to turns, limiting turns is the same thing as limiting encounter space.

Granularity need not be at floor level, either.

[Sorcerous]

So obviously the current state of buffs in crawl is bad and should get revised, but I think it's worth pointing out that the remainder of crawl's spell system isn't compelling either. Once you take out buffs you're left with 6 varieties of direct damage, allies, hexes, and some miscellaneous emergency/escape spell stuff, and none of these are that interesting except possibly the last one. If you want crawl magic to be good you've gotta dig a lot deeper than buff spell revision. Worth tackling a broader concept of crawl magic reform imo; we need to step back and look at what crawl magic is supposed to be and consider radical changes to the system.

Also worth noting that the problem with buff recasting is in part caused by excessive tactical space available to the player, and this is also a root cause of lots of other tedium problems. A tighter game with more meaningful constraints on disengagement and between-combat actions could make big improvements here, though I don't expect any development in this direction to occur.

This is a very interesting look at the spell system. Asking "why?" does seem more important than "how?" at this point.

I'd still argue the root cause of tedium problems lies with the players, rather than the many implemented features.

[Shtopit]

My experience with Transmutations is that they already are OK. Yes, you have to recast them every time, but you also have a variety of forms that respond to different situations. I don't think you are supposed to go around always keeping a certain form, because they have certain clear weaknesses (generally low AC, elemental weakness, no quaffing...). So I don't really see them as buffs, more as attack spells that you choose based on the here and now. This is very different from other buffs that you have no reason not to cast, because they always have a net gain.

Personally, I would have all summoning spells ported to gods on the model of BiA, or to scrolls. Really, they are too boring as your main weapon.

As for spells like O. Armour, Infusion, Shroud of G., and so on, I never understood what was the point. You want to play as a fighter, you choose a fighter. If you want to have high AC characters that cast spells, you can add some spells that ignore armour penalties, and pay for this in a different way, like being weaker for their level.

[TheMeInTeam]

What exactly is this change supposed to achieve?

Put a strategic limitation on buff spells that are powerful, but annoying to use all the time.

Tabbing with short blades can win you games, but it's annoying. Remove that too?

Buff spells already have some strategic limitation: they require you to invest XP into spell schools and/or spellcasting, and they typically require you to not be wearing the heaviest/best armor you can find. They are often worth the cost, but not always.

I would argue in terms of sheer input volume and advantage conferred that manually exploring intelligently is far more beneficial than buff spells on average, while being worse in annoyance. Buff spells require an extra keypress in non-trivial fights, not unlike the god abilities you propose to replace them. What this does do is inflate gods with more factors making them harder to balance between and further buff gods/invocations in general, things IMO crawl does not need.