silver/steel missiles

[mollymolluskus]

How about getting read of silver and/or steel missiles? I find them annoying because they aren't worth the inventory slot, so I tend not to carry them anyway. And then when I want them, I don't have them...

[stormdragon]

Silver and steel crossbow bolts were removed some time ago, as were all non-throwable branded ammunition types. However, for some reason, we still have brands on throwable ammunition (not just silver and steel but also poison, returning, explosion, dispersal, and I think penetration). I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and all branded throwables should be removed.

[Sprucery]

I guess the reasoning was that since launchers have brands, their missiles don't need brands. Personally, I would keep penetration for javelins and poisoned for tomahawks and get rid of the other brands.
Silver is a border case, it's such a cool brand that it could also stay. Having one brand for tomahawks, one for javelins and one for both would still be ok imo.

[petercordia]

I agree, removing some brands could be good. Returning can make a thrower's life much nicer though, despite the inventory clutter, because then he doesn't have to think of what to switch to every time a ammo runs out.

[Airwolf]

Steel is +30% damage to all monsters. It used to also have lower mulch rate: does it still?

[Siegurt]

Steel is +30% damage to all monsters. It used to also have lower mulch rate: does it still?

Not since Jan 2015: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6 ... d9b7e69899

[svendre]

how about no ammo:

sling & pouch of bullets (why would you find bullets on the ground with no sling, or a sling without bullets? just link them together)
bow & quiver of arrows (why would you find arrows on the ground with no bow, or a bow without arrows? just link them together)
hand xbow & quiver of bolts
xbow & quiver of bolts
bag of rocks (make it a little more rare to find, and worth throwing for minimal damage)
pouch of poison darts (with poison, duh)
pack of tomahawks (maybe it could sometimes stun an enemy, or some other unique effect)
pack of javelins (chance to penetrate which tapers off with # of targets and distance)
pile of boulders (make it a two-handed thrown item "launcher", it hits a single target really hard but is not accurate)

[Implojin]

Fundamental problems with throwing items*:

- Increased micromanagement and associated waste of player time necessary to use them.†
- Survival benefit from hanging onto tomahawks+, even with minimal Throwing skill.
- Vanilla 'Do damage from range' effect set. How many ways to deal damage from range does Crawl need, really?

This coupling of survival benefit to administrative micromanagement makes ranged attacks in Crawl, including Throwing, largely unfun to use.

*These problems are shared by ammunition in general, but exacerbated in the case of Throwing by the variety of base types and brands, and its general utility at zero-to-low skill.

†Individual micromanagement factors include the unmeaningful 52 item limit and need to play inventory tetris, actually picking the ammo from local terrain (whether with autopick or manually), interacting with the search interface to find floor ammo, the quiver and fire interfaces, and occasionally travelling cross-level to pick. All of the above involve several keypresses that aren't anything approaching "interesting tactical combat", and rather boil down to a flow-breaking tax on player time, for any player with enough hubris to try playing with items that use the (f)ire interface. All of this deserves to be streamlined out of the game.


edit: I had an ammo reform proposal posted here around the idea of Pouches. Upon reflection, Pouches seem likely to wind up with similar design to Rods, and would probably be a bad approach.


I think the right approach here is to continue mercilessly cutting vanilla ranged damage sources. DCSS already has wands, which are tied to interesting effect sets and meaningfully limited. If you *really* want to salvage any Throwing brands, put them on a wand instead.

Throwing's design space is already taken by a better-designed set of items. Just cut everything associated with Throwing.

[sdynet]

First, I present my opinion in a way to reduce 0-skill no-brainers.

I brought a new opinion. The range is proportional to the skill level. Like this.
Skill level:Range
0:2
3:3
6:4
9:5
12:6
15:7
18:8(For Ba)

When the skill level is 0, the range is the same as Polearms. In this way, those who use launcher&Throwing without honing their skills will disappear. *with great certainty*


Secondly, micro-management problems can be solved like this.
The feature and problem with Throwing is that unlike other launchers, various ammo can be used. It is also necessary to delete the type of ammo, but I suggest additional measures. I think we can separate the throwing skills into several pieces and create new ones. Especially, Needle, Javelin, Rock. Once separated, it will also be fun to give them new features.
Then Throwing has only two kinds of ammo. stone, Tomahawk.

It's okay to make them new launchers, but how about this one? What about combining new items with a cloak slot? And get rid of the ammo. (But in this case, Fe and Op cannot use it. Do we have to make a new throwing slot?)
example)
You picked up the pack of javelins. You put this on a cloak slot. Now you can fire javelin and train it. On top of that, you found needle. But you gave up the needle because you can't use the javelin and the needle at the same time.

Combining all these opinions is as follows:
Because the range is two square, you didn't pick up the bow. You didn't pick up any other throwing items because you've already picked up javelin. The inventory you use of is one. That's all.

[sdynet]

I think the right approach here is to continue mercilessly cutting vanilla ranged damage sources. DCSS already has wands, which are tied to interesting effect sets and meaningfully limited. If you *really* want to salvage any Throwing brands, put them on a wand instead.

Throwing's design space is already taken by a better-designed set of items. Just cut everything associated with Throwing.

The problem with converting all of the throwing items into evocation is that it can do too much. Even now, 'evocation' has 11 wands and 9 Miscellaneous. You want to add more? It's too diverse and powerful. And, what does the rock giant and merfolk throw?

[sdynet]

Well, I've refined my suggestions. You will get an ammo pack instead of ammo.
ex)arrow -> arrow pack

It has a charge.
ex)arrow pack(8/8), javelin pack(4/4), rock pack(3/3), needle pocket(2/2).
To prevent the use of a 0 skill trainer, this may start at 0.

When you have a javelin pack, you will see javelin on the ammo list(Q). You can select javelin and fire javelin with f. Your ammo pack does not regenerate when monsters are visible. But your ammo pack do charge full regenerate when monsters are not visible.
Charge increases up to five times in proportion to the skill level.
ex)arrow pack(40/40), javelin pack(20/20), rock pack(15/15), needle pocket(10/10).

Monsters' ammo charge is set to the basic amount. If you think it is too low, you can set it in proportion to HD instead of skill level.
ex)Centaur fire 8 arrows. Stone giant throws 3 rocks.

The same type of ammo shares the amount of charge. If you fire penetration javelin, your normal javelin also consumes the amount of charge.
ex)You have penetration javelin pack(4/4) and normal javelin pack(4/4). You fire penetration javelin. Penetration javelin pack and normal javelin pack became (3/4).

What will change if I do this? Here's what I think.
1. You just need to pick up the ammo once. There is no need to pick up any more ammo after that.
2. In combat, this is not infinite ammo. It will be a little short of what it is now. You have to cover your LOS from the enemy to charge the ammo.
3. It is easy to prevent the use of 0 skill trainers. If you want to use ammo, train your skills.
4. Monsters' use of ammo is not much different from what it is now. They will still be menacing. Also, their long-range attacks have an end.
5. Since they share the charge, we won't carry more items than we do now.


Apart from this, can't we separate the throwing from the needle? Personally, I want to integrate needles and tomahawks. The new name is darts as planned in git. And I want to integrate sling bullets and stones. When you throw stones with slings, more increase the damage. It's a simple solution.
List of throwing items I think: stone, rock, javelin, penetration javelin, silver javelin
List of darts(new skill item) I think: poison, curare, frenzy, dazzling(planned in git)

If you were OgHu, maybe you would carry these four things. rock, javelin, penetration javelin, silver javelin. And if you have a brand javelin, you will throw out the normal javelin. Actually, there are three items you carry with you.

I think this will solve the problem of inventory management and micro-management to some extent, what do you think?

[petercordia]

It's an interesting proposal, and would solve a lot of inventory hassle.
I would miss the current behaviour of sandblast and slings though.
Also, kobolt chuckers would be #@*&ed.

[sdynet]

It's an interesting proposal, and would solve a lot of inventory hassle.
I would miss the current behaviour of sandblast and slings though.
Also, kobolt chuckers would be #@*&ed.

Sorry, this is the limit of my idea. I'm not sure I can find a better way than this...

[sdynet]

Well, I've refined my suggestions. You will get an ammo pack instead of ammo.
ex)arrow -> arrow pack

It has a charge.
ex)arrow pack(8/8), javelin pack(4/4), rock pack(3/3), needle pocket(2/2).
To prevent the use of a 0 skill trainer, this may start at 0.

When you have a javelin pack, you will see javelin on the ammo list(Q). You can select javelin and fire javelin with f. (Add text)The fired ammo disappear. Pack consumes 1 charge. Your ammo pack does not regenerate when monsters are visible. But your ammo pack do charge full regenerate when monsters are not visible.
Charge increases up to five times in proportion to the skill level.
ex)arrow pack(40/40), javelin pack(20/20), rock pack(15/15), needle pocket(10/10).

Monsters' ammo charge is set to the basic amount. If you think it is too low, you can set it in proportion to HD instead of skill level.
ex)Centaur fire 8 arrows. Stone giant throws 3 rocks.

The same type of ammo shares the amount of charge. If you fire penetration javelin, your normal javelin also consumes the amount of charge.
ex)You have penetration javelin pack(4/4) and normal javelin pack(4/4). You fire penetration javelin. Penetration javelin pack and normal javelin pack became (3/4).

What will change if I do this? Here's what I think.
1. You just need to pick up the ammo once. There is no need to pick up any more ammo after that.
2. In combat, this is not infinite ammo. It will be a little short of what it is now. You have to cover your LOS from the enemy to charge the ammo.
3. It is easy to prevent the use of 0 skill trainers. If you want to use ammo, train your skills.
4. Monsters' use of ammo is not much different from what it is now. They will still be menacing. Also, their long-range attacks have an end.
5. Since they share the charge, we won't carry more items than we do now.


Apart from this, can't we separate the throwing from the needle? Personally, I want to integrate needles and tomahawks. The new name is darts as planned in git. And I want to integrate sling bullets and stones. When you throw stones with slings, more increase the damage. It's a simple solution.
List of throwing items I think: stone, rock, javelin, penetration javelin, silver javelin
List of darts(new skill item) I think: poison, curare, frenzy, dazzling(planned in git)

If you were OgHu, maybe you would carry these four things. rock, javelin, penetration javelin, silver javelin. And if you have a brand javelin, you will throw out the normal javelin. Actually, there are three items you carry with you.

I think this will solve the problem of inventory management and micro-management to some extent, what do you think?

Well, I didn't think there was a better improvement, but I came up with it. It's a little embarrassing.
first opinion. Integrate the needle with tomahawk. The name after integration is dart. Dart has a brand of needles, but includes low damage. Integrate the sling bullets with stones. The name after integration is stone. When you throw stones with slings, more increase the damage.
second opinion. Leave the following throwing ammo and remove all brands:

stone,
dart(poison, curare, frenzy, dazzling[planned in git]),
javelin(penetration, silver),
rock,
net.

third opinion. remove the brand ammo pack. Instead, it will add a brand ammo craft manual(item). This item is a spell-book. When you pick up this item, it disappears. And you can select that brand ammo.
ex)You has javelin pack, You can fire normal javelin. You picked up silver javelin craft manual. You can see silver javelin from ammo list(Q), You select and fire silver javelins.

This way you only have to carry five items. stone, dart, javelin, rock, net. And in actuality, if you have dart pocket or javelin pack, the stone pocket will be thrown away. And if you are not an ogre or troll, you cannot use rock pack, so there are three items you hold. Moreover, if you were a small species, you wouldn't even be able to use javelin pack, so you would carry only a dart and a net.
At this rate, don't you think there's little pressure on inventory management?