Specie Proposal - Angel/Profane Servitor

[Inarius]

First of all, excuse me for my english. I hope it will be good enough.

For a long time i have wondered why there wasn't any "holy race". There are already several unholy species, like Ghouls, Mummies Vampires and Demonspawns, all of them refused by good gods.
So I thought about the "Angel", race. But after a while i thought that Angel can't be separated from their evil counterpart : Profane Servitor. So I thought about a bi-specie, based on their relation with their god (what is more godly than an Angel, after all ?)

The main idea with this race is that , like Draconians, or Demonspawns, it will experience some changes during its life. But unlike these two, the changes will be at will. Not exactly "at will", though. It will depend on your choice of god !
Let's begin with it.

Ange/Profane Servitor

Base Str : 8, Dex : 9 , Int : 8
Stat : +1 random stat every 5 lvl (or, maybe 4 ? I don't know)
Life : -10% HP as an Angel, as a profane Servitor : +10 % HP
MP : Normal MP (or maybe +10 % as Angel ? I don't know, needs to be tested)
MR : +3 magic resistance each lvl

Innate resistance :
Angel : Holy immune (of course) / Profane Servitor : Holy Vulnerable
Angel : rN- / Profane Servitor : rN+
Both : Can Fly (after lvl 14)
Profane Servitor : Unarmed vampiric attack

Angel : Can invoke Aura (costs Piety, and, after that 1 MP or some piety every turn). Same effect as holy aura.
Profane Servitor : Can Invoke Umbra (costs Piety, and, after that, 1 MP or some piety every turn). Same effect as Umbra from Profane Servitor.

Angel : Stealth -
Profane Servitor : Stealth +

Angel : Divine Intervention : Can heal itself (consume ALL Faith, heal is % life based on Piety available x Inv skill, at full piety and 27 Inv, should heal of at least 75% life)
Profane Servitor : ?? (nothing, probably)

Angel/Profane Servitor : Gain Faith more easily, like Amulet of Faith (you cannot wear an amulet of faith on top of that).
Angel cannot berserk or make themself invisible, nor eat intelligent food.

SKills : Angel/Profane Servitor
Fighting +0/+2
Short Blades-3/-1
Long Blades +1/-2
Axes -2/-1
Maces & Flails +1/-2
Polearms -2/-1
Staves +1/-1
Unarmed Combat -2/+1
Throwing -1/-1
Slings -1/-1
Bows +0/-1
Crossbows -1/-1
Armour +0/-1
Dodging -1/+1
Stealth -3/+1
Shields +1/-2
Fire Magic +0/-1
Ice Magic +0/-1
Air Magic +0/-1
Earth Magic +0/-1
Poison Magic -2/+0
Spellcasting -1/+0
Conjurations +0/+0
Hexes -3/+1
Charms -3/+1
Summonings +0/+0
Necromancy -5/+2
Translocations +0/+0
Transmutation -3/+0
Invocations +5/+5 (of course !)
Evocations -2/-2
Experience 0/-2


Last but not least :
When you begin your game, you choose directly your god.
This gods can be either good, or evil, but not neutral. This god will determine which version you will play
Angel : Evylion, TSO, Zin
Profane Servitor : Dithmenos/Kiku/Yredelemnul/Lugonu/Makhleb/(Not Beogh, i think)

You cannot abandon a god without taking a new one. If you change from Evil to Good or from Good to Evil, you will transform into an Angel/Profane Servitor. Maybe god wrath should last a bit longer if you play an Angel or a Profane Servitor, considering this ?

Main challenge with this specie is to know when to "change version". Angel are decent fighters, and mage, and can heal, but they have some limitations (like rN-, cannot become invisible or berserk, Stealth-, -10% HP). Profane servitor are stronger, have better overall skills but can only play evil gods, and on top of that they have this punishing -2 Exp. So both races are not very strong in general. (Maybe they should be a bit weaker in skill bonuses ?)

Their main asset is their huge Invocation bonus and Faith bonus, which should give them an interesting gameplay.

What do you think ?

[Sprucery]

Just a note: monster Angels have rN+++ so rN- on a PC Angel seems unfitting. Also monster profane servitors have rHoly.

Main challenge with this specie is to know when to "change version".

I think it would be best to just stay with what you choose, there's no need to subject yourself to wrath.

I like the idea of a species that must chooce either a good or an evil god.

[Inarius]

I know angels are rN+++ , but...I didn't know how to balance it. And no other race have rN- so, ...well...it was an idea (and I know Profane Servitor have rHoly, but, again, it seemed a bit odd for me). But if you give rN+++ it's a HUGE bonus so you have to find other flaws. And, then, which one ?
However, i like the idea of being able to change sides during the game. As the two races have a quite different playstyle but each one have interesting bonuses.
Well, anyway, it's just an idea, of course it must be refined and modified !

[petercordia]

I like the idea, but I'd implement it differently; mainly by making the Angel & Profane Servitor more similar. (Like the draconians.)
Just like draconians, you could give them a 'base' version, from which they upgrade to Anger Proper / Profane Servitor when they choose a god.

[Sorcerous]

The idea is an interesting one, but some of the differences between the two are really punishing (-2 XP modifier is horrendous). The profane version having rHoly is consistent with the NPC, but you could also provide rDamn for the angelic one instead of rN-/rN+++. Effectively, both the angelic and profane would have little or no use of their respective resistances in the early game, but could still get a decent survivability boost later on.
Some of the listed weapon aptitudes are also needlessly different, considering demonic and holy versions of the same weapons already exist in the game proper.
But yeah, I'd be on board for a concept like this to be implemented. Innate *Faith is also pretty cool.

[byrel]

rN+++ is not a huge advantage. On the other hand, rN- might finally make rN relevant in a 3-rune game, so... maybe it's worth it?

[Inarius]

Maybe -2 Exp is too rough, just -1 then
I just wanted not to make Profane Servitor too strong, encouraging player to switch from one to another if necessary. I also understand rDamn (i didn't even remember it existed, actually, i just thought there was rTorm).

About weapons : Profane Servitor don't wield weapons and have vampiric attack, while Angels always wield long sword of flail/scourge with a shield...but well, it was *just* a proposal, i understand. And about the fact that they are more or less the same...well, maybe i was influenced by Vampires where the different forms are really differents. I wanted to create something like a "Regular Fighter" Angel vs. a "Sneaky and Evil Profane Servitor".

But the MAIN ideas about Angels are quite simple actually :

1 : Two forms (Profane Servitor vs Angel) determined by your choice of god, which can be changed during the game if conversion.
2 : Gods are chosen at the beginning, and can only be either good or Evil.
3 : Innate *Faith (it's one of the very rare bonus i never found as an Innate racial bonus !) and Fly at lvl 14.
4 : Huge bonus to Invocation (which is good as all evil and good gods are invocation-based)
5 : An innate talent based on Piety consumption (healing for Angel, no idea for Profane Servitor)
6 : Maybe an evocable Umbra/Aura which could use Piety as an innate talent

Every other elements can be changed !

[Sorcerous]

Maybe -2 Exp is too rough, just -1 then
I just wanted not to make Profane Servitor too strong, encouraging player to switch from one to another if necessary. I also understand rDamn (i didn't even remember it existed, actually, i just thought there was rTorm).

About weapons : Profane Servitor don't wield weapons and have vampiric attack, while Angels always wield long sword of flail/scourge with a shield...but well, it was *just* a proposal, i understand. And about the fact that they are more or less the same...well, maybe i was influenced by Vampires where the different forms are really differents. I wanted to create something like a "Regular Fighter" Angel vs. a "Sneaky and Evil Profane Servitor".

But the MAIN ideas about Angels are quite simple actually :

1 : Two forms (Profane Servitor vs Angel) determined by your choice of god, which can be changed during the game if conversion.
2 : Gods are chosen at the beginning, and can only be either good or Evil.
3 : Innate *Faith (it's one of the very rare bonus i never found as an Innate racial bonus !) and Fly at lvl 14.
4 : Huge bonus to Invocation (which is good as all evil and good gods are invocation-based)
5 : An innate talent based on Piety consumption (healing for Angel, no idea for Profane Servitor)
6 : Maybe an evocable Umbra/Aura which could use Piety as an innate talent

Every other elements can be changed !

Going by the main ideas:

1) I like the lore aspect of having a story in DCSS about fallen angels or evil servants finding redemption. Maybe a bit too black/white but it is still a fun thing to keep in mind. It would probably need some kind of "probation period" for the new divine patron to accept the new follower, for balance and story reasons.
2) It would work, when the other stuff is hammered out.
3) Fully agree, having divine attention by birth rather than circumstance is really distinct from other races. It is also the opposite from demigods, so there's that too.
4) Yes!
5) There are all sorts of things to consider for these, I wouldn't stop at personal healing: you could put together anything from a damage shield, to healing for allies, to smiting the wicked within range. I would maybe even invert the expected roles of the two: a selfless champion who fights for the greater cause of evil, and a reckless do-gooder that's overly eager to advance the holy crusade. All sorts of possibilities here
6) Either an evocable, a toggle, or a level acquired passive.

[Hellmonk]

But the MAIN ideas about Angels are quite simple actually :

1 : Two forms (Profane Servitor vs Angel) determined by your choice of god, which can be changed during the game if conversion.
2 : Gods are chosen at the beginning, and can only be either good or Evil.
3 : Innate *Faith (it's one of the very rare bonus i never found as an Innate racial bonus !) and Fly at lvl 14.
4 : Huge bonus to Invocation (which is good as all evil and good gods are invocation-based)
5 : An innate talent based on Piety consumption (healing for Angel, no idea for Profane Servitor)
6 : Maybe an evocable Umbra/Aura which could use Piety as an innate talent

Every other elements can be changed !

Let me go over these point by point.

1. The idea of a strategic form swap tied to something that you don't have to micromanage the entire game might work. I don't think that tying it to god choice works though. Abandoning a god to join another one is not typically something you do at all in a 3 rune game, let alone multiple times. The strategic incentives offered here are not high enough for god swapping to be worthwhile outside of the typical scenarios. It is hard to see how you'd make them high enough to be worth losing all piety and taking god wrath multiple times a game, especially since you can just start the game in whichever form is better for your character. As written, profane servitor is much stronger than angel and also gets a much better god selection, so I would start profane servitor of kiku on every background except AK and never swap.

2. Starting god as part of a species is also kind of interesting. I implemented something like this in bloatcrawl for fun. The interesting part is that you can end up playing backgrounds with unusual god choices and have it be optimal to do so. I think it's very hard to make this work well, though. Obviously you don't want to have the full god roster available or people will just take the best god for their background every game. You also don't want the god(s) available to be too playstyle defining, or every game ends up playing the same no matter what background you pick. Unfortunately, crawl gods are not well balanced relative to one another, so the set here does not work imo. It's also not great to cut off a bunch of god choices entirely; I imagine that people would like to be able to play chei or qazlal with a +5 invo apt even though those gods are bad, and there's not a good gameplay reason to prohibit that. Probably the best way to make something like this work would be to start the species with a relatively weak god and prevent their wrath so that there is still a decision of whether or not to swap later and the player can choose to give up accumulated piety to get a better god. I don't know how well that would work out in practice.

3. This is fine but also more or less just a power level thing, in that it does not really change species playstyle. There used to be an experimental species that had this, along with no god wrath.

4. Fine, though I think that the difference between +3 apt (DS/HO) and +5 is mostly inconsequential. Kiku is not invocations based btw.

5. Unsure if this can be developed into something interesting. It essentially gives the species an "extra" god ability that they always have as long as they have a god. The angel one as written strikes me as not interesting, since it is similar in use to ely lifesaving or zin sanctuary but much more expensive and therefore usually worse, but I won't say it's impossible to come up with something that works well.

6. Umbra and Halo aren't strong enough to be worth evoking for a piety cost imo. If you want them to have this then it should just always be on. I don't think it changes much one way or another.

I think that as written the species is at least moderately overpowered. You start with Kiku, a +2 necro aptitude, and an innate amulet of faith. Once you get the first kiku book, the game is over, and this species is not especially likely to die before then since it has +10% hp. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[sdynet]

This idea seems to require a lot of supplementation and modification, but it is certainly interesting.

[petercordia]

You could design them like this:

basis species:
Fighting -1
Short Blades -2
Long Blades -2
Axes -2
Maces & Flails -2
Polearms -2
Staves -2
Unarmed Combat -1
Throwing -2
Slings -2
Bows -2
Crossbows -2
Armour +0
Dodging +0
Stealth -1
Shields -1
Fire Magic -1
Air Magic -1
Earth Magic -1
Poison Magic -1
Spellcasting -1
Conjurations -2
Hexes -1
Charms -1
Summonings -2
Necromancy -2
Translocations 0
Transmutation -4
Invocations +4
Evocations -2
Experience -1

very fast -- flying at XL 14 -- all angelic resistances -- halo with XL dependent radius

Angel gets +2 in long blades, pole-arms, maces, shields
Profane Servitor gets +2 in shortblades, UC, necromancy, and vampiric UC brand, profane servitor resistances

[Inarius]

@Hellmonk : thanks for your attention and help. I'm nor a dev and not even a great player so helping me refining this idea is very welcome ! I also think the skill design from petercordia is simplier and better than mine, too. I trust the dev to do something balanced if some day they want to create this new specie.
About linking the Angel/Profane Servitor to god choice well...what are the other options ? Having an Angel of Kiku or a Profane Servitor of Zin would be a bit weird, don't you think ? I don't intend to promote swapping nor making it frequent, i just want to make it possible. Like abandonning a god is something possible, but you don't do it in every game, though.

About Umbra/Aura it could be MP based (and not piety based), and just keep the healing panic button.

[Tumalu]

I think the species might be more balanced if your starting god choice was TSO/Zin/Ely/Godless, and either godless=profane servitor or you became a servitor upon choosing an evil/chaotic god, like a draconian changing body type and receiving a few altered aptitudes. (That way you could still pick evil gods without dealing with wrath) The good gods are mostly rather low impact early game, so it seems fair enough, whilst the chaotic/evil gods are... mostly pretty powerful after not long at all, making starting with them realllly strong.

Of course, could always start as a chaos/abyssal knight for instant Profane Servitor, but that costs your background, so it's fair.

Aura/Umbra should just be permanent because their impact isn't huge, and a further innate ability past that probably isn't necessary. Can grow with your experience level. Auto aura/umbra and *faith is quite strong enough as it is. Sounds like a pretty interesting and unique enough species to me right there.

[Inarius]

Well, then, let's just pray the Gods (devs) will listen for next version

[tealizard]

If you want to see this species happen, you or some other like-minded individual will have to code it up. I doubt it would be picked up by dcss, but there are other forks that might take it.