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Is this supposed to be fun?

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26154

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Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Saturday, 9th March 2019, 20:32
by Scuka
I'm all up for skill checks and dice rolls, but this is utterly ridiculous:

Spoiler: show
The crimson imp is too close now for your liking.
A crimson imp is nearby!
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
You are starving!
_You feel sick. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp misses you.
Found 19 stones.
You are too hungry to fight recklessly!
You are too hungry to fight recklessly!
You miss the crimson imp. You feel sick.
You are no longer poisoned.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You eat one of the 6 rations. That ration really hit the spot!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
_You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
_A crimson imp is nearby!
_Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
_You start resting.
The crimson imp is too close now for your liking.
A crimson imp is nearby!
_A crimson imp is nearby!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp spits at you.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is almost dead.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage. x2
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is almost dead.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp shouts, "Accept thy failure, thou paunchy doghearted pissant!"
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp grinds its teeth.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_You see here a dagger.
_The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You climb upwards.
_Level annotation: 3 runed translucent doors, Scuka's ghost, amateur DrFE
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
_You start resting.
_HP restored.
_You climb downwards. The crimson imp misses you. The crimson imp hits you.
There is a stone staircase leading up, spattered with blood here.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp grinds its teeth.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp sputters.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You completely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp puffs mist at you.
_The crimson imp laughs crazily.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp grins evilly.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you. The crimson imp blinks!
You miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp shouts, "Scamper hence, thou churlish elf-skinned
blabberskite!"
_The crimson imp hits you.
You miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp closely misses you.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp completely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you. x2
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!


A monster that can't kill a player character, and a player character that can't kill the monster. What's the point of that?

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 15:00
by sardonica
teaching the player that running away is a viable option, without actually splatting them, seems like it's worth a monster

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 15:22
by VeryAngryFelid
sardonica wrote:teaching the player that running away is a viable option, without actually splatting them, seems like it's worth a monster

A slow monster like old worm or water-based electric eel teach that much better.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 16:01
by svendre
I think the point of this monster is that it is supposed to hamper you tactically rather than being a direct threat. For example: you're trying to get away from an ogre and then an imp blinks in front of your escape route causing you to get sandwiched between a monster you can't easily kill and one that is going to crush your face. It seems like good design to me to create threats which are more indirect, otherwise the game would be less diverse. This monster teaches a totally different set of lessons in threat assessment than a slow moving worm. Later on, blink frogs can be a real danger to most characters.

Also, even some of the weakest characters can actually kill imps. The trick is to use a heavier weapon, even if you don't have it skilled. The reason is to kill it more quickly with a lucky roll and not give it a chance to regenerate. It's very easy to reset the fight if it doesn't work out. This is a lesson in both weapon selection and resetting fights.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 17:56
by Airwolf
... and poison.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 17:59
by VeryAngryFelid
svendre wrote:I think the point of this monster is that it is supposed to hamper you tactically rather than being a direct threat. For example: you're trying to get away from an ogre and then an imp blinks in front of your escape route causing you to get sandwiched between a monster you can't easily kill and one that is going to crush your face. It seems like good design to me to create threats which are more indirect, otherwise the game would be less diverse. This monster teaches a totally different set of lessons in threat assessment than a slow moving worm. Later on, blink frogs can be a real danger to most characters.


I don't see how current crimpson imp can help to deal properly with blink frogs. In your example crimpson imp teaches you to avoid corridors because retreat path can be blocked but blinking frogs are better fought in corridor. Even if we need an "easy" monster for every mechanic in the game, why can't we remove the extra regeneration to make it non-annoying? What is the lesson of extra regeneration by the way? That not all monsters can be kited as Centaur and that monster Trolls have more effective HP than their description says? Player does not need crimpson imp to learn it IMHO.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 19:34
by Scuka
The issue here is that there are a ton of no damage hits and a ton of misses. Did any of you play Morrowind? That game is notorious for its combat system and this imp situation reminded me of exactly that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNXYrAkUntU

Having your character do an action in a video game and watching it have absolutely no effect is always frustrating. I'd rather hit 10 times for 1 damage than nine times for 0 and one time for 10. I'm exagerating a bit, things don't need to be so predictable, but RNG peaks need to be smoothed out.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Sunday, 10th March 2019, 21:27
by ion_frigate
Scuka wrote:The issue here is that there are a ton of no damage hits and a ton of misses. Did any of you play Morrowind? That game is notorious for its combat system and this imp situation reminded me of exactly that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNXYrAkUntU

Having your character do an action in a video game and watching it have absolutely no effect is always frustrating. I'd rather hit 10 times for 1 damage than nine times for 0 and one time for 10. I'm exagerating a bit, things don't need to be so predictable, but RNG peaks need to be smoothed out.


The problem here is not that there are a bunch of whiffs - it's that the average damage inflicted by the imp and you is, in both cases, under the other's regeneration rate. Smoothing out the damage would actually make that problem worse, since the only thing that ends a fight like that is a big damage spike.

Realistically, imps' regeneration rate needs to be massively reduced or just cut back to normal.

And yes, I played Morrowind too, but I don't think the situation is exactly analogous. Once a monster/NPC got down to 0 fatigue it had practically no chance of hitting you (which happens easily with Ordinators' ebony maces, as heavier weapons rapidly drain fatigue), and an unskilled weapon had practically no chance of hitting a high-Agility monster. In Crawl, there's always (at least) a low but steady chance to hit your enemy, so the problem only emerges when you get high-EV jackasses with ridiculous regen rates (and players who, by stairdancing, can get whatever "regen rate" they want).

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 00:24
by njvack
There will always be cases where your damage output exactly matches some monster's regeneration rate...

That said... monster regen+ is really annoying for low-damage characters and might be replaced by more HP or AC or additional damage or something. Melee-only monsters with Blink can also be pretty infuriating; fights with them involve so much movement instead of damage (see also: distortion melee).

Crimson Imps manage to drink from both cups at once, which is especially frustrating for an early-game monster. IMO they'd be better without blink, or with flame tongue or something.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 04:37
by svendre
VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:I think the point of this monster is that it is supposed to hamper you tactically rather than being a direct threat. For example: you're trying to get away from an ogre and then an imp blinks in front of your escape route causing you to get sandwiched between a monster you can't easily kill and one that is going to crush your face. It seems like good design to me to create threats which are more indirect, otherwise the game would be less diverse. This monster teaches a totally different set of lessons in threat assessment than a slow moving worm. Later on, blink frogs can be a real danger to most characters.


I don't see how current crimpson imp can help to deal properly with blink frogs. In your example crimpson imp teaches you to avoid corridors because retreat path can be blocked but blinking frogs are better fought in corridor. Even if we need an "easy" monster for every mechanic in the game, why can't we remove the extra regeneration to make it non-annoying? What is the lesson of extra regeneration by the way? That not all monsters can be kited as Centaur and that monster Trolls have more effective HP than their description says? Player does not need crimpson imp to learn it IMHO.


Granted imps and blink frogs aren't exactly the same, but they certainly share the ability to blink in common. When I encounter blink frogs, I take them seriously, but the cases where they are most dangerous are when they are adding fairly unpredictable extra damage or blocking paths in combination with a more serious threat. In that respect, I feel they are similar with imps. While it may be true to say it is safest to fight blink frogs in corridors, the same could be said for any monster except perhaps troll mages with LRD and a few exceptions. That is, the statement could be generally true for all fights, until it isn't.. because of specific circumstances. It's those specific circumstances where the blinking monsters pose a specific type of threat.

Another thing is that they create some chaos as far as stirring up the level. You can't always easily lure them to your preferred location, they might blink near a sleeping monster and wake them up, thwarting plans of perfectly controlling and luring a level.

If the regeneration were removed from imps, then even for infantile characters, they would be utter popcorn to destroy. That would also simultaneously remove one of the main threats they pose -- tactically interfering with you. If you can't swat it dead so quickly, then it's a much more effective blocker.

As for the annoyance factor, a few points:

1) Because of their blinking, if a person wants to ditch them on a previous level or run away from them, it is pretty easy.
2) Even a terribly weak character can still kill them pretty safely
3) The percentage of the game where a character isn't able to immediately splatter them like popcorn is very small.
4) Monsters aren't supposed to be there to give you a helping hand, they're supposed to get you killed in one way or another

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 04:46
by phloomp
I really dislike monsters that exist primarily to teach some tactic or mechanic. It would be less intrusive to display a splash screen saying "you can walk away from monsters" at the start of each game.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 05:17
by ion_frigate
phloomp wrote:I really dislike monsters that exist primarily to teach some tactic or mechanic. It would be less intrusive to display a splash screen saying "you can walk away from monsters" at the start of each game.


I feel that it's fine for a monster to exist to teach some tactic - as long as the consequence of not learning that tactic is death, not tedium.

Moreover, the lesson crimson imps (supposedly) teach is "walk away from this monster because it's annoying and can take several hundred turns to kill". The lesson you need to learn is "walk away from this monster because it will kill you". That lesson is best taught by monsters that can kill you.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 06:14
by VeryAngryFelid
svendre,
For me Blink Frogs are among the most dangerous monsters of Lair, their "path blocker" role is really small.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 12:51
by njvack
svendre wrote:3) The percentage of the game where a character isn't able to immediately splatter them like popcorn is very small.

The thing that sucks here is that during that percentage of the game, they're worth a fair chunk of XP and are definitely worth plinking to death.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Monday, 11th March 2019, 20:43
by stormdragon
I suggest giving crimson imps the Call Imp spell. Then they'll be something to run from if you can't kill them quickly, since they can actually kill players; later on, they'll be more tactically relevant since they can occupy more space.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 16:10
by njvack
Giving call imp to imps who can call imps who may in turn have call imp could make... a lot of imps

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 17:06
by byrel
It sounds like the primary problem with Imps is that they're insufficiently lethal; not surprising since they have the melee of a goblin, but better resists and defenses. The most direct solution is to increase their melee damage, but that makes them indistinguishable from phantoms (which are actually a good monster for teaching EV starts about parking, since they can kill you.)

So it seems to me that the options are:
  • Remove crimson imps. They do nothing particularly well at the moment, and are mostly just tedious XP-bags.
  • Give them a ranged attack ala frost imps. Frost imps are already lower HD, and probably do too much damage for a blink-monster when crimson imps show up, so you might have to drop crimson imps to 1-2 HD. (Also, isn't this just an orc wizard that give bonus XP at this point?)
  • Give them an ability that amplifies their indirect danger. I can't think of any of these that wouldn't incentivise getting it alone and then tediously killing it for XP, so something would also need to be done to either reduce its XP value to negligible or make it less annoying to kill when alone.
  • Remove their blink, and rework into another flavor of early-game monster.

Anything that's done would need to address Call Imp balance though; crimson imp spam is its only balancing factor right now, and it's quite strong enough as it is.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 17:15
by phloomp
Maybe give them blink close instead of blink?

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 17:20
by Vanguardan
What if Blink was just replaced with Blink Close? Maybe decrease their fire immunity to resistance (frost imps aren’t immune to cold) so FE starts aren’t useless against it while it stays close to you.

EDIT: lol, phloomp beat me by 3 minutes.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 17:37
by njvack
byrel wrote:phantoms (which are actually a good monster for teaching EV starts about parking, since they can kill you.)

Phantoms seem more like a monster who teaches you to reset fights over and over until things go well — I think they have many of the same design problems as crimson imps.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 18:07
by stormdragon
njvack wrote:Giving call imp to imps who can call imps who may in turn have call imp could make... a lot of imps

Yep. Problem?

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 20:35
by Siegurt
Give them conjure flame, show those players how annoying it is to be a monster sitting behind a conjured flame waiting to attack your target! (Seriously though, don't do this, it would be terrible)

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 20:37
by petercordia
I don't really mind red imps. You can just ignore them if you can't kill them. If the problem is that players feel they can't afford to leave the xp behind... maybe remove/reduce red imp xp?

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Tuesday, 12th March 2019, 21:13
by TheMeInTeam
petercordia wrote:I don't really mind red imps. You can just ignore them if you can't kill them. If the problem is that players feel they can't afford to leave the xp behind... maybe remove/reduce red imp xp?


XP is not permanently gone, you can just come back for it and kill the imp trivially.

Even so I'm in favor of getting rid of this kind of one-off low-threat high annoyance enemy entirely. Major temptation if you can't kill it is to lure + park. Doing so optimally puts it in a spot it can't cause tactical problems, but then what purpose *is* it serving? Mostly tedium.

Blink frogs were brought up as a comp but I don't think that's fair. There are more of them and they can legit kill you if handled poorly, even without randomly zapping acid wands on D:2.

I don't think I've ever died to a non-wand imp, only time was the acid wand example before kitchen_ace taught me how to force_more wielded wands.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 14th March 2019, 15:29
by HANFGEIST
Scuka wrote:I'm all up for skill checks and dice rolls, but this is utterly ridiculous:

Spoiler: show
The crimson imp is too close now for your liking.
A crimson imp is nearby!
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
You are starving!
_You feel sick. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp misses you.
Found 19 stones.
You are too hungry to fight recklessly!
You are too hungry to fight recklessly!
You miss the crimson imp. You feel sick.
You are no longer poisoned.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You eat one of the 6 rations. That ration really hit the spot!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
_You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
_A crimson imp is nearby!
_Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
_You start resting.
The crimson imp is too close now for your liking.
A crimson imp is nearby!
_A crimson imp is nearby!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp spits at you.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You are too injured to fight recklessly!
You completely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is almost dead.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage. x2
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is severely wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is almost dead.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp shouts, "Accept thy failure, thou paunchy doghearted pissant!"
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp grinds its teeth.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_You see here a dagger.
_The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You climb upwards.
_Level annotation: 3 runed translucent doors, Scuka's ghost, amateur DrFE
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
_You start resting.
_HP restored.
_You climb downwards. The crimson imp misses you. The crimson imp hits you.
There is a stone staircase leading up, spattered with blood here.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is heavily wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp grinds its teeth.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
The crimson imp sputters.
The crimson imp hits you.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp sputters.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You completely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp puffs mist at you.
_The crimson imp laughs crazily.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp grins evilly.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp hits you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
_You barely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you. The crimson imp blinks!
You miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp barely misses you.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
The crimson imp shouts, "Scamper hence, thou churlish elf-skinned
blabberskite!"
_The crimson imp hits you.
You miss the crimson imp.
You tail-slap the crimson imp, but do no damage.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
_You closely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp closely misses you.
You completely miss the crimson imp. The crimson imp closely misses you.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp completely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. You tail-slap the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You barely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you. x2
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp misses you.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp barely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
You hit the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp hits you.
You hit the crimson imp but do no damage.
Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp hits you but does no damage.
You closely miss the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is lightly wounded.
_The crimson imp closely misses you.
You hit the crimson imp. Your tail-slap misses the crimson imp.
The crimson imp is moderately wounded.
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
_The crimson imp blinks!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!


A monster that can't kill a player character, and a player character that can't kill the monster. What's the point of that?

Looks like my first (and only) game of ADOM.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 15:58
by cliffracer
The crimson imp has three problems:
- Incredible defenses (more EV than any other imp, more HP than any non-iron imp, the ability to regenerate, and blinking)
- Almost no power to kill the player (apart from the rare case of spawning with a wand)
- Grants a massive amount of XP, more than an iron imp and over four times as much as a white or shadow imp

Right now crimson imps are a kind of nonthreatening XP pinata for characters with the build or players with the patience to kill them.

The most immediate step is to cut the XP by half or more (i.e. to somewhere between 10 and 25) to avoid this XP pinata effect.

Then we can think about how we can make the crimson imp a unique threat. I would suggest a kind of "Blink Frog Jr." that emulates the effect (a nebulous and shifting cloud of melee fighters) while being less deadly due to decreased damage and slower speed.

The new crimson imps would have much more breakable defenses while still being a decent melee fighter:
- No regen
- MR 10 (in line with other imps)
- EV 12 (still the highest of all imps)
- rF++ (in line with white imp's rC++)

More consistent offense
- Remove weapons & wands and boost the base attack from 4 to 6

The new crimson imps would appear in packs of 3-10 (slightly scaled with depth) and would be worth 10 XP each (same as a white imp but appearing in greater number). The lower MR and fire resistance would make them slightly more vulnerable to hexers and fire elementalists, although both would still have significant issues trying to fight a swarm with just hexes or fire magic.

This fulfills an "imp fantasy" of a hero swatting a swarm of small demons swooping at them.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 22:09
by Shtopit
cliffracer wrote: - Grants a massive amount of XP, more than an iron imp and over four times as much as a white or shadow imp

That's very, very, very unexpected, especially since my experience with "call imp" gave me the impression that the spell was built around the concept that red imps are the weakest of the lot, and thus they are summoned less frequently the higher your spell power.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 21st March 2019, 00:50
by cliffracer
Shtopit wrote:
cliffracer wrote: - Grants a massive amount of XP, more than an iron imp and over four times as much as a white or shadow imp

That's very, very, very unexpected, especially since my experience with "call imp" gave me the impression that the spell was built around the concept that red imps are the weakest of the lot, and thus they are summoned less frequently the higher your spell power.


At first I thought it was the usual wiki bullshit, but I looked up the experience function exper_value() in

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/mas ... on-util.cc

and it checks out. Experience is calculated by a point-buy like system (i.e. more stats and features on monsters = higher XP). The base equation is

(16 + maxhp) * hd * hd / 10

Like iron imps, crimson imps have 3 HD as opposed to 2 for white and shadow. This means that they already give over twice as much XP (3 * 3 vs 2 * 2).

Then the difficulty modifier is added up and applied for various special effects, such as regeneration (+15%) and item use (+30%) for a total of +45% over everything other than the iron imp, which has item use.

Then the monster-specific experience modifier is applied, which is 13 (+30%), 10 (+0%), 14 (+40%), and 11 (+10%) for crimson, white, iron, and shadow respectively. So if we ignore maxhp (which goes iron > crimson > white > shadow), we see crimson being 9*1.45*1.3 = 17.0 to the white imp's 4*1*1 = 4, hence over 4 times as much XP. (Iron imps work out too as while they gain XP from higher hit points and a higher modifier, they don't have regeneration for diff and they get -20% due to being slow).

Crimson imps basically spent a whole lot of (frequently compounding) points on things that don't add up to a threatening monster.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 22nd March 2019, 14:40
by byrel
Well, at a minimum I think them having a custom 30% bonus to XP is absurd. Given their low threat level, I suspect that could be non-controversially eliminated.

But in the end, it doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it less expensive to ignore it. Even if they gave 1XP, it would be worth the cost on many characters. It would make it less punishing to be a non-optimal non-tedious player though, which would be all for the good.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 00:36
by hawthornbunny
Personally, as a player I have always liked the imp archetype of being a monster that causes you trouble in ways other than merely being a physical threat or damage sponge as 99% of monsters are. I remember when I first started out in Crawl and encountered imps, and realized I was dealing with a monster who could regenerate and evade faster than I could damage it, which opened my eyes to the kinds of challenges I would be facing. And the flavor is right too; being annoying is precisely their niche, to the point that they even directly insult you.

Imps also give rise to a satisfyingly cathartic minor milestone, since at some point you'll be good enough to squash them or blast them to dust for all the trouble they caused earlier. :)

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 01:53
by tealizard
The defense of game mechanics in terms of their supposed didactic virtue and its reliance on testimonials from newer players or reminiscence about having been a newer player drives me nuts. Of course a lot of people who have encountered crimson imps like 20 times will find them less tedious than someone who has dealt with them three hundred times. New players generally have less critical takes on the game, just as anyone new to anything. And then this is compounded by something like "the average player has never won the game" -- right, because players quit. Anyone who takes up this line of argument should reflect on the tendency of tedious mechanics to drive that kind of attrition.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 10:33
by delarado
I like them. They are annoying as hell, but I like them. They are salty flavor popcorn that can leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I have 192 games listed according to Beem, although I'm sure it's more (not sure what beem logs) Not sure if that counts me as a new player or not.

Anyone who takes up this line of argument should reflect on the tendency of tedious mechanics to drive that kind of attrition.


That is a valid point, but I don't feel like they are common enough to warrant people quitting. Once you learn how to deal with them, they are either an annoyance (Park upstairs) or something that causes you to take serious evasive action (Blocking escape with a pursuing pack of orcs)

The same analogy has been given to shaft traps before and people seem to like those for the reasons I've given :)

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 16:28
by cliffracer
hawthornbunny wrote:Personally, as a player I have always liked the imp archetype of being a monster that causes you trouble in ways other than merely being a physical threat or damage sponge as 99% of monsters are. I remember when I first started out in Crawl and encountered imps, and realized I was dealing with a monster who could regenerate and evade faster than I could damage it, which opened my eyes to the kinds of challenges I would be facing.

The problem with this argument is that the crimson imp doesn't resemble any other challenge faced in the game. It has incredible defenses for the earlygame (high evasion, regeneration, good hp, good AC, blinking, a slew of resistances for locking out low-level mages) paired with no offensive capability. This doesn't fit the game's overall focus on offense, i.e. that the game for both monsters and players isn't about stacking immunities but about maximizing damage to the enemy while minimizing damage to yourself.

delarado wrote:The same analogy has been given to shaft traps before and people seem to like those for the reasons I've given :)

Arguments about shaft traps usually concern whether they're fair, while this discussion is about whether crimson imps are tedious. Despite being occasionally unfair, 99% of the time shafts represent an immediate ramping up of the tension. Crimson imps only escalate tension in the 1% of the time when the stars align and they spawn with the exact group to threaten you, the exact level geometry to trap you, and blink into the exact spot that blocks your escape, the other 99% of the time being the tedium of imp parking or Morrowind slapfights.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 20:58
by Shtopit
About that: blinking makes them even less dangerous. Even if they were to block your escape route, they would get out of the way fast enough.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 21:10
by TheMeInTeam
It's also one of the things that makes them as annoying as they are. If you take them to a cleared floor, move into an open room and hold down tab they will STILL blink off screen and force more manual control to see them again.

Phantoms are similarly annoying but less bulky relative to typical encounter timing.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 21:49
by hawthornbunny
cliffracer wrote:The problem with this argument is that the crimson imp doesn't resemble any other challenge faced in the game.


Well, that kind of was my point; I like their uniqueness. I like the "oh crap" moment when you realize that this thing can heal faster than you can hit it. And while I do take teallizard's point - that nostalgia over a first encounter isn't a good enough reason to justify a flawed design - I do still genuinely enjoy what imps represent, both in terms of their mechanical interest and their flavor, which is perfectly on point.

In fact, if we're cutting a monster by this logic, then bats should get the chop before imps do. Bats genuinely are no fun - hard to hit, aren't any real threat except to extremely unviable characters, and you have to fight them every single time you play. This doesn't strengthen the case for imps any, but I argue that imps are at least interesting creatures by comparison.

On the subject of making imps less unfun, I was considering the following idea: how about making them simply disappear after a while? It fits their flavor (they're teleporters and are a classic summon), it avoids the issue of them being a persistent annoyance (they'll just go away), it provides a time-limited challenge for those who do want to go at it, and they still get to poof around the dungeon making a scene and being annoying. I can see a few issues with the idea (like people just waiting around for the imp to go away, which isn't fun), but I wonder if this would improve them any.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Thursday, 28th March 2019, 22:43
by tealizard
Making them disappear would compound the XP problem, because instead of just giving stronger characters a lot of free XP sooner a weaker character doesn't get the XP at all.

It's no surprise that people defend crimson imps for being what they are (purely annoying) in terms of what they clearly are not (a challenge, an intermittent threat to positioning, snack food). Like the Greater Hell Beasts of zangband, crimson imps are joke monsters. It's one thing for the name of a monster to be a joke, but when the mechanics are the joke you have a problem because bad mechanics can't stay funny for long.

There's been some talk about summon imp. Maybe the existence of crimson imps is justified as a way to pad an overpowered spell (although people underrate crimson imps as allies, I think). Even so, there is no reason crimson imps have to generate as ordinary monsters.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 29th March 2019, 00:50
by Shtopit
What if they could blink you instead, as a melee effect? It's pretty useless if they are met alone, but, in a group, it gets more interesting.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 29th March 2019, 00:57
by Rast
What if they didn't have the dumb regen rate?

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 29th March 2019, 03:12
by VeryAngryFelid
I like how some people say that crimpson imps are good for learning other monsters, other people like that crimpson imps are unique and third people like crimpson imps because they are annoying. I wonder if any valid reason to remove any monster can exist in this crazy world.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 29th March 2019, 13:43
by petercordia
Valid reasons for removing monsters are if they are unfair, or boring for one reason or another :)

I like the idea of having crimson imps disappear, because they can provide a sizable chunk of xp when they are first met, but hardly worth anything later in the game. It's almost never be worth going back to kill a crimson imp. Having them disappear eventually would make them like timed portals, which feel rewarding when you get them.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Friday, 29th March 2019, 13:51
by njvack
The big problem with disappearing imps is that strong characters would get the XP from them and get stronger, while weak characters don't.

Crawl doesn't need Mario Kart-style rubber banding to make weak characters stronger, but it's probably best if the game tries to limit the ways strong characters get increasing advantage. And it's most important in the early game — gaining an XL off an early imp makes a big difference to a character.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 17th April 2019, 17:26
by MisterPersonMan
sardonica wrote:teaching the player that running away is a viable option, without actually splatting them, seems like it's worth a monster


This is definitely true. However, as a new-ish player, it didn't really do that for me. Any attempts to run weren't really successful and I always end up fighting them and being irritated anyway.

Something that might better serve this purpose is a slow-moving monster that doesn't hit very hard, but has a lot of HP. In the early game, it wouldn't be powerful enough to easily kill a player that was paying attention, but would have enough HP and be able to regen fast enough that killing it would be a huge pain early on. This is similar to the imp in this regard; the main difference being that it can't blink. This would mean that its movements would be much more predictable, and running away would become the easiest option.

Unfortunately, in order to have a monster that encourages running away without making it very dangerous, it'd have to be something that makes the player come to the conclusion that killing it is not worth the effort. Irritation is just a part of that, sadly. But it can be done much better than it is currently being done with Imps.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 17th April 2019, 17:54
by cliffracer
MisterPersonMan wrote:
sardonica wrote:teaching the player that running away is a viable option, without actually splatting them, seems like it's worth a monster


This is definitely true. However, as a new-ish player, it didn't really do that for me. Any attempts to run weren't really successful and I always end up fighting them and being irritated anyway.

Something that might better serve this purpose is a slow-moving monster that doesn't hit very hard, but has a lot of HP. In the early game, it wouldn't be powerful enough to easily kill a player that was paying attention, but would have enough HP and be able to regen fast enough that killing it would be a huge pain early on. This is similar to the imp in this regard; the main difference being that it can't blink. This would mean that its movements would be much more predictable, and running away would become the easiest option.

Unfortunately, in order to have a monster that encourages running away without making it very dangerous, it'd have to be something that makes the player come to the conclusion that killing it is not worth the effort. Irritation is just a part of that, sadly. But it can be done much better than it is currently being done with Imps.


Worms already do this, and are encountered much earlier than crimson imps. Their high damage, high HP, and regeneration mean that it's often best to retreat, and their slow speed means you can always do it.

In-game lessons in Crawl are always going to involve some form of danger, as tedium is to be avoided by design. A player making bad decisions about a worm on D:1 learns that the game is dangerous and discretion is the better part of valor. A player making bad decisions about an imp on D:4 gets the wrong impression that the game is tedious.

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 17th April 2019, 18:40
by petercordia
Actually worms are significantly different from the monsters suggested by MisterPersonMan. Worms hit hard, and can be killed by an unarmed untrained melee octopode (with a little luck). MisterPersonMan suggests a monster with the hp of a deep troll, and the attacking power of a rat.
Such a monster could be interesting :)

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 17th April 2019, 19:35
by Hellmonk
Interesting as a way to make people quit playing crawl

Re: Is this supposed to be fun?

PostPosted: Wednesday, 17th April 2019, 20:48
by MisterPersonMan
cliffracer wrote:
Worms already do this, and are encountered much earlier than crimson imps. Their high damage, high HP, and regeneration mean that it's often best to retreat, and their slow speed means you can always do it.

In-game lessons in Crawl are always going to involve some form of danger, as tedium is to be avoided by design. A player making bad decisions about a worm on D:1 learns that the game is dangerous and discretion is the better part of valor. A player making bad decisions about an imp on D:4 gets the wrong impression that the game is tedious.


Like petercordia said, my suggestion was different than worms. (Not sure if Hp being equal to that of a deep troll would be necessary for it, though.)

If in-game lessons in Crawl are supposed to involve danger, then there's no argument to be had here. If that's the design philosophy, then imps should be cut and replaced with something more scary that encourages fleeing without the tedium. I was simply suggesting a replacement for imps that achieves the same goal: encouraging running without the danger.

In all honesty, Crawl shouldn't have anything that has players avoiding it simply because of tedium. Something truly dangerous adds tension, a reason to run, and a good challenge. Monsters that are annoying to fight are avoided simply because the player really doesn't want to, not because they're any sort of challenge.

If there's movement to cut imps, I will most definitely support it.

Alternatively, their mechanics could be changed while keeping their tiles and names. There was an idea earlier in this thread to make them less irritating to fight and having them come in small groups. I quite like this, although it'd probably need a bit of refining.
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