minmay wrote:That's probably worse than saying nothing at all considering that Lair is nearly always easier than the dungeon level you enter it from...
I've been jumped by multiple spiny and blink frogs the moment I set foot in Lair 1. Unlike the Dungeon level you enter it from, you can't run back upstairs and try a different stairwell. It's also more likely that you'll draw fast monsters that you can't outrun in Lair 1, and depending on your background there might not be much else in either Lair or Dungeon that can threaten you seriously.
Lair 1 is usually easier than Dungeon of the same absolute depth, but 'nearly always' seems rather strong. Orc 1 is also usually pretty tame, key word being 'usually'.
Eji1700 wrote:I'm not sure if this still happens, but if it does small point:
3 floor shaft in dungeon- bad, but possibly not lethal.
3 floor shaft in lair- probably not all that bad
3 floor shaft in orc- Death.
This is not my experience. In my experience getting vigorously shafted is likely to be a dire emergency regardless of where it happens. I've started to expect Lair 5-7 shaftings to put me right in the Lair 8 vault. I've falled into the same part of the cow vault twice, and I'm pretty sure that was just added to Trunk recently. I've also fallen right into the Hell vault and frog vault repeatedly, and the worm vault once. I've taken to putting more points in traps & doors than I used to…
mikee wrote:There are actually some cases I had in mind when I brought this issue up. For example, the online player mafalda has no wins and approximately 500 games that have not ended in the branch 'd'. Approximately 50% of those games ended in orc, with an average xl of 9.98. He has also died in elf twice at xl 12.
The online player coweater has no wins and 112 games that have not ended in 'd'. Approximately 50% of these were in orc with an average xl of 9.24. 7 of those games ended in elf with an average xl of 13.57.
If, as you presume, these people are diving into the first branch they see regardless on whether it is wise to do so, wouldn't switching Orc and Lair depths just cause them to dive into Swamp/Snake/Shoals at the first opportunity and die just the same? What solution do you propose that would actually fix the problem they're having, rather than just moving it to Swamp/Snake/Shoals?
mikee wrote:Another point I would like to add is that there are other reasons lair is generally a better first branch to visit than orc than danger. It is more directly rewarding in experience, random items, etc. OTOH, I usually visit orc afterwards to gain piety/gold or to shop on orc:4.
Orc 1-3 provides:
branded light or heavy body armor
branded weapons probably superior to what you've found
MASSIVE amounts of piety for kill gods
money
moderate chance of random shops
access to Baileys, Volcanos, Ice Caverns
Lair 1-7 provides:
large amounts of xp
random floor trash, some of which is still likely to be useful
access to Volcanos, Ice Caverns, and Spiders' Nests
My preference depends on what I need at the time. I often find that I simply don't have the tools I need to confront the bigger threats in Lair by the time I find it, and Orc is usually helpful. If you meet a couple black mambas at the same time and aren't prepared for them, they can easily kill you, but an orc knight or warlord will simply chase you to the stairs. Orc will get me spellbooks from Vehumet, Kiku, or Sif Muna, equipment from Okawaru or Trog, minions from Fedhas or Yred, decks from Nemelex. That sometimes matters.
Mikee wrote:So what we have IMO is two branches, one that is better to enter first but that tends to appear second. Yes, players should learn branch preferences, but objectively speaking, if I saw that case in some new game it would seem strange to me.
Let's not overstate the difference, here. I'd say I attempt to clear Orc 1-3 before Lair 3+ in about 30% of my games. I'd probably do it before Lair 1-2 in these games, but I'm an incorrigible packrat who wants an orderly-looking stash. Sometimes I run back out of Orc 1-3 with my tail between my legs, but other times I loot Orc 1-3 of shops and robes without seeing anything worse than an orc warrior. Rarely do I get killed in there.