Why are there no "stealth" gods?

[Konebred]

Is stealth just not as legit as casting and bashing your way through the dungeon? It seems like most stab builds go with Oki or Trog for their gifts when they are thematically about as non stealth as it gets. I know its really just a numbers game when you boil the game down to its roots but it still seems like there should be some sort of sneaky God out there granting temporary speed boosts, stealth and stabbing bonuses or poison branding or something.

[nicolae]

As far as I can tell, it's basically 'cause nobody's thought of one good enough to implement.

Lots of people seem to agree there should be one, and there's a lot of suggestions floating around the devwiki, but I guess none of them have really stood out enough to inspire someone to add them into the game.

[evilmike]

I wouldn't call okawaru "thematically non stealth", although you're right to say that about trog. Okawaru is all about empowering your martial prowess.. and while this mostly means your melee abilities, it also includes other fighting styles. I think it's reasonable to say he approves of sneakier fighting styles. Heroism does improve your stealth, stabbing, and throwing skills by +5 (which seems to be exactly what you're asking for). It's easy to neglect this, but that bonus really does have an effect. The +5 to throwing can be especially nice, because it makes your needles more likely to proc.

There isn't any pure-stealth god at the moment, but okawaru is an excellent choice for a stabber. If you don't want to go okawaru, you might want to try a stalker combo that chooses Ashenzari. This lets you see enemies through walls and stab them using passwall.

[galehar]

temporary speed boosts

What does speed has to do with stealth anyway?

[dpeg]

"Nobody thought of one" made me smile: I am thinking about a stealth god for several years by now. The most primitive idea is to have a god that boosts your stealth and likes silent kills, or something along those lines. That won't fly with me, it is not good enough for a Crawl god in my not so humble opinion. As I see it, a god should be more than a boost to a single playing style. My main issue with the standard stealth god proposals is that in Crawl, all the experience is for killing. While you can skip almost all opposition (see some speed runs), you cannot play in a proper thief way as long as killing is the only way to advance skills. (This was also one reason why the Thief background got removed.)

By the way, you could have educated yourself before posting: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... od:stealth and https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... :god:thief and perhaps more ideas in https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... :god:other. The Thief god proposal is my one, it contains a system to get xp without killing.

evilmike is correct that Ashenzari has synergy with stabbing (and was intended to do so).

You are free to comment on the wikis or voice ideas. But there is more to the matter than might be obvious at first glance.

[KoboldLord]

The main trouble is that stealth is a fairly narrow concept, and there's only so much you can do to directly boost it directly without putting builds that are already stealth-oriented over the top. A max-stealth spriggan or kobold can already walk through a crowded room in Pandemonium without being noticed, and probably doesn't need another direct stealth buff on top of that.

The best combination of usefulness and balance for a stealth-oriented deity, then, is one that saves you when your stealth fails, or one that gives you a low-opportunity cost option outside your main build. Trouble is, though, that escape abilities and extra options are valuable for absolutely everybody, so this so-called stealth god will also be desirable for non-stealth characters.

Good stealth deities in the current game that are also good non-stealth deities include Ashenzari, Elyvilon, Lugonu, Nemelex, and Okawaru.

[dpeg]

KL: In my opinion, it is best not to boost stealth really much, but rather to reward the stealthy. As you say, stealth is in itself a working strategy (unlike miscellaneous items, say, which get therefore proper god support). I was aware of the problem you mention, and I tried to address this in my Thief god proposal by having a conduct (the god is fine with stabs and sudden kills but does not like noise, e.g. from extended battle or loud spells).

In any case, comments on the wiki pages I've linked are appreciated. Several people already put some thought into the matter.

[tazoz]

Here's a suggestion for a stealth gold: (moved from the other thread)

Urias god of thieves

Abilities:

*: Steal item: active ability: 1 mp - can only be used if monster is asleep, stealth check to succeed, steal a random item from target, can be used from a distance, if you fail the monster wakes up.
**: Set Trap: 2 mp and piety, used on item on floor that you are standing on, create a trap from the object: Dart - dart trap, arrow - arrow trap, one item is consumed in the process
***:Evasive manouvers: passive: gain bonus to evasion up to +6 at max piety, when moving or waiting.Set needle and net traps.
****: Study enemy: active ability 3 mp:can be used if monster is asleep or unaware stealth check to succeed, you get a bonus to hit (also spells?) and damage versus target and enemy gets an accuracy (also spells?) penalty. (acts as a hex)
Set bolt trap.
*****: Scout ahead: active ability that can be used if alone, 4 mp and piety, for duration of ability all stealth checks succeed, if a player takes an action except moving or waiting or studying enemy (stealth check to succeed, if you fail the ability ends) or the duration runs out, the spell ends and all creatures in sight wake up, You can't stab when scouting.
*****: Set teleportation trap: On identified teleportation scroll you are standing over. Skip trap: Active 4 mp and piety, jump over trap/s to other side of it/them. (note: this can be used as a controlled blink with some setup.)

Piety gain: Suggestions? maybe based on items found as in the wiki.


The god acts as a god of tactics and stealth, you can position yourself in combat through use of scouting or evasion, you can set traps and lure the creatures into them, skipping the traps while the enemies blunders into them. You can weaken them through the stealing of items and studying them but you risk not being able to stab them by doing so.

[Joehai]

I had a sudden weird idea, somebody tell me off if it gets to be a bad idea: Make Cheibriados more stealth-god based.

Chei's a god of slowness, so maybe he could translate into deliberate stepping that could in turn lead into stealth-based bonuses?
Also, he's got Step out of Time, which fits into the stealth/escape theme. Granted, I'd like more stealth/escape options for Chei, but I don't know how UP/OP'd he is in the general scheme of things.

[mumra]

I had a sudden weird idea, somebody tell me off if it gets to be a bad idea: Make Cheibriados more stealth-god based.

Chei's a god of slowness, so maybe he could translate into deliberate stepping that could in turn lead into stealth-based bonuses?
Also, he's got Step out of Time, which fits into the stealth/escape theme. Granted, I'd like more stealth/escape options for Chei, but I don't know how UP/OP'd he is in the general scheme of things.

I had a similar idea, instead making Sif more stealth-based, since she's a librarian and likes people to be quiet: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:sif#librarian_proposal

[Sjohara]

I had a sudden weird idea, somebody tell me off if it gets to be a bad idea: Make Cheibriados more stealth-god based.

Chei's a god of slowness, so maybe he could translate into deliberate stepping that could in turn lead into stealth-based bonuses?
Also, he's got Step out of Time, which fits into the stealth/escape theme. Granted, I'd like more stealth/escape options for Chei, but I don't know how UP/OP'd he is in the general scheme of things.

I don't know about that. Slouch is pretty much the least subtle ability ever. Besides, stealth play generally involves brutally murdering things which are just chilling out or sleeping, which isn't really consistent with his values. Not that he actually cares right now, but explicitly rewarding it feels wrong.

[Stormfox]

Flavour-wise, Fedhas is the god that seems to "fit" best with being stealthy, what with being able to attack from behind cover and mold the terrain and certain dungeon features to your advantage. But his mechanics and abilities don't directly benefit stealth play at all.

[Konebred]

Stormfox, that gave me a vision of a Kobold assassin crawling through the grass with Vietnam era warpaint on his face, a knife in between his teeth, sneaking up to a band of sleeping enemies and cutting their throats. Thanks for the character idea lol.Hell I might even name him Victor Charlie.

[ElectricAlbatross]

I had a sudden weird idea, somebody tell me off if it gets to be a bad idea: Make Cheibriados more stealth-god based.

Chei's a god of slowness, so maybe he could translate into deliberate stepping that could in turn lead into stealth-based bonuses?
Also, he's got Step out of Time, which fits into the stealth/escape theme. Granted, I'd like more stealth/escape options for Chei, but I don't know how UP/OP'd he is in the general scheme of things.

Incidentally, Chei's dexterity bonus is pretty amazing for stealth. With full stat boost, my Troll Monk of Chei was Very Stealthy with the stealth skill at level 2 or something.