TheMeInTeam wrote:Just need more than 1. They can still hit for ~20 with rF+++ (with one attack variant ignoring multiple usual defensive measures), and it is not trivial to run from them. This is still more DPS than anything else there for characters with good AC/EV/SH, barring ancient lich magic which has a few hard counters.
Ah, so that's what you meant when you said OOFs can kill you even with rF+++; you meant multiple OOFs. As you probably know, in crawl, fighting multiple depth-appropriate non-pack monsters is supposed to be a big deal no matter how prepared you are - it doesn't mean the monster is at the upper limit of difficulty.
And the rF+++ DPS is definitely not more DPS than anything else there. If you just look at fast enemies, most of them will usually hit harder: electric golems, death cobs, orb guardians, maybe storm dragons.
TheMeInTeam wrote:It usually isn't, but can end your run if you get teleportitis and can't be rid of it fast enough.
You may be technically correct, I am not sure how low the minimum time is between contracting teleportitis and having it trigger. But considering the usual amount of time it takes teleportitis to kick in, the relative quickness of fighting an OOF, and the abundance of potions of mutation in the game, if that actually happened I would be really interested in seeing how.
TheMeInTeam wrote:If you remove extra elemental resistance, you globally increase potential damage of monsters that rely on elemental attacks.
That's only true for entities that would have had extra elemental resistance. The concern you raised about balance was that summons are not very effective against OOFs compared to other strategies and you didn't want the gap to widen. Obviously, it won't, because summons are not affected by the proposal. I think you knew this and knew that the concern was false when you decided to raise it.
TheMeInTeam wrote:The purpose of my statement was to refute the mistaken notion from VeryAngryFelid that having 80% damage reduction against a particular enemy as a result of what is likely multiple pieces of equipment is an outlandish thing that should/would be rejected as a matter of course. The fact of the matter is that this is possible against nearly all enemies through one means or another, with torment being the most rare resist to get down to 20% damage (Kiku ability).
I was asking you about your suggestion at the core of your argument: that having potential to trivialize select enemies is good for the game. Your answer is that you didn't mean to say that having it is good, you're just saying it exists in some cases and is not bad. Maybe my question was too vague, so let me be specific: Do you think it is good for the game if the player has the potential to trivialize any given enemy by wearing a specific gear combination, and if so, why?
TheMeInTeam wrote:Note that rF+++ also has drawbacks. In fact it is implied to be a "newbie trap", which is impossible if wearing rF+++ did not have significant drawbacks.
The drawback of rF+++ (which is the opportunity cost of constraining your gear to get it, and usually manifests in the loss of some AC and/or EV) is significant but it is much smaller than the drawback of being silenced (not being able to use scrolls, god abilities, or spells). The reason that rF+++ is a newbie trap is because it presents itself to the player in a way that makes the benefits appear to be worth the drawbacks, when they generally are not. If there was a silence ego on body armor that presented itself to the player as a really great thing, then it too would be a newbie trap (of course, this is probably impossible because unlike rF+++, silence's drawbacks are obvious in nature and no one would believe that it's generally good for you). This is kind of related to what Siegurt and PseudoLoneWolf were saying about numbers - players can't know how much the loss of AC/EV to get those resistances matters, unless they wizmode test or pay long-term scientific attention to the variables in play. And as duvessa said, this is true even with a pip cap of 1.
TheMeInTeam wrote:That's silly. Virtually any mechanic change will influence the main game and extended. There is a difference between difficulty and changes to a game that centralize/trivialize decision making.
I see that you want to discuss the ramifications on extended in this GDD proposal and you think it is silly not to. Just so you know, new players don't make it to extended, and most old players choose not to go to extended; the players interested in extended are the middle players trying it for the first time or few times, and some highscore enthusiasts.
TheMeInTeam wrote:A core premise of the OP's reasoning was that +++ resists are unclear but are also beginner traps. This discussion has apparently shifted to the concept that +++ provides too much damage mitigation - a non-trivial change to reasoning! Something can't be both a beginner trap and too strong at the same time. It might be one or the other depending on context, but that suggests using it is a *meaningful choice* in the game.
Nobody said that wearing rF+++ gear was too strong of a strategy - it is generally a weak strategy, which is why it is a newbie trap (I say generally because sometimes you get it for no opportunity cost, such as if the game generates +5 boots of rF+++). This is because the set of monsters that it trivializes is very small, while the set of monsters it makes deadlier (because you usually have a high opportunity cost and give up AC/EV for those resistances) is very large.
The reason that the damage mitigation it provides may be too much is not because it's overpowered, but rather because it makes certain monsters boring/trivial, which is a bad thing when those monsters would otherwise be very challenging/exciting. OOFs and venom-dagger-Sonja are good examples, and there are many enemies with an ability duplicated in a different element (or an ability modified to do partial-elemental damage) to prevent this, such as Azrael, which is a lot of extra work in monster design for no real added depth.
TheMeInTeam wrote:If you reduce the +++ to +, it will trivialize gear choice to at least a degree...and despite initial assertions otherwise there is clearly some incentive to utilize +++ sometimes and not other times.
I guess this is the core of your argument that you didn't mention before - gear decisions. I would say that the additional pips after the first have so little value that the gear decisions you perceive don't really exist to an experienced player. These "decisions" are what I and others are calling newbie traps.
TheMeInTeam wrote:Have the UI provide sufficient information such that an unspoiled player can anticipate the relative benefits of gear in advance. This seems to go against some of the stated design intentions, and I disagree with those particular ones. Nevertheless, it's an option and would do more to mitigate newbie traps than what amounts to a rework of resistances and likely multiple enemies/areas.
This would be nice, but unless you have a more specific idea, nobody has put forward a feasible way to improve the defense information given to the user. The complexity of the damage and accuracy formulas are such that you can't accurately quantify a general benefit from defenses.
The OP's proposal would not need any enemies or areas to be reworked.