Please nerf the boggart

[JasonMel]

I'm on my first decent game, after about 25 abortive games. I'm on DL19 and encountered my first boggart. So far this little bugger is far and away the hardest monster in the game, so much so that I thought I had encountered the game's ultimate boss. In no time flat, it had summoned enough really tough monsters (dragons, etc.) to fill my field of vision, and it wasn't clear where they were coming from. I barely survived only because I happened to have my own army of orcs as meat shield, being a Hill Orc Priest Messiah. I realize that they are physically weak, but that doesn't help me if there are so many thralls that I can't see the source.

I think either it should maintain a limited number of summoned thralls at one time, or keep the summoned army's toughness to something reasonable, or let my orc high priest cast an unsummoning spell that actually works sometimes. It kept casting "go back where you came from," and it didn't ever work on anything.

[mumra]

If you run away and wait, the summons will be gone. Then come back and kill the boggart quicker I suggest blasting it with a wand. Or, just leave it for now and go back later in the game.

[Hushed]

I don't think it needs nerfing per se, but I definitely think they should give more XP than they do (unless the wiki is out of date).

[JasonMel]

Well that's great advice, but I shouldn't have to come to a forum to find the answer, according to the game's philosophy. I literally had to look up a bunch of monsters on the web to see what might have such an ability. For a while I assumed the level itself must be generating them.

[mumra]

Well that's great advice, but I shouldn't have to come to a forum to find the answer, according to the game's philosophy. I literally had to look up a bunch of monsters on the web to see what might have such an ability. For a while I assumed the level itself must be generating them.

If you'd died you'd have found out; the message would say "killed by an {x} ... summoned by a boggart".

Luckily, you survived; but really, you're extremely deep in the dungeon and things are supposed to be difficult

[Kate]

At some point soon I'm hoping to take a look at monster summoning and probably tone down the amounts of things that get summoned at a time (along with a nerf to the player abjuration spell). But possibly there's still a bit of a problem if it's really unclear what boggarts are doing (especially if they go invisible immediately? also if you were a HOPr they could have spotted your orcs and gone invisible and started summoning before you even saw them, perhaps...)?

[JasonMel]

But possibly there's still a bit of a problem if it's really unclear what boggarts are doing (especially if they go invisible immediately? also if you were a HOPr they could have spotted your orcs and gone invisible and started summoning before you even saw them, perhaps...)?

Yes, that's entirely possible. It started happening almost as soon as I came down the stairs. Unfortunately it was one of those wide-open levels, too, so the number of summons I had to deal with wasn't bounded by available space.

[njvack]

Hm... I actually agree; the messages regarding summons aren't particularly clear, IIRC: "The boggart mumbles some strange words." and a bunch of things pop on the screen. I'm pretty sure demon summons aren't any more clear -- they simply gesture.

Maybe being more explicit would help: "The boggart mumbles some strange words. Some monsters appear!" Or, if it's invisible, "Something mumbles some strange words. Some monsters appear!" Maybe "are summoned" is better than "appear" in this context.

Letting people know that monsters have appeared via means other than normal monster generation seems like a good idea. Might be a good idea to let people turn this off, to keep summonspam fights from being even less spammy...

@JasonMel: Kill summoners first

[TwilightPhoenix]

One trick is to polymorph the Boggart. Their HD is low enough that they can turn into stuff like rats. Though, do be warned, as polymorphing a rat can make a Boggart.

[dpeg]

Boggarts are one-trick ponies (okay, they can also go invisible), though they come in groups of threes.

All problems of the OP would be solved with a better monster description, though. (Perhaps the monster description is already good enough, I cannot check from here.)

[njvack]

A boggart

A twisted little sprite-goblin. Beware of its magical tricks!

It is slightly resistant to hostile enchantments.
It can see invisible.
It is fast.
It is little.

[dpeg]

njvack: Thank you. I agree this is not good enough. You could inquire with the Task Force if they have improved this description. And if not, try to think of an improvement and suggest it to them.

[jejorda2]

When the purple smoke clouds that appear when things teleport were added, it made it much easier to tell whether something had died or teleported away. Careful reading of messages gave the same info, but the clouds are still a really nice touch. And marking the position tells you something about where the enemy could have blinked to or where that trap is it stepped on.

It is easy to keep track of where ranged attacks are coming from because of the animated visual effect that accompanies them.

Maybe we could add some kind of animated visual effect for summons? Maybe when an enemy creates a summon, the caster's square and the summon's square could cycle through the beam and cloud glyphs a few times before showing the glyph for the enemy? I hope the effect would take about as long as the explosions that occur when a potion is evaporated.

[smock]

Good suggestion! A purple cloud under recently summoned or animated monsters might be appropriate.

Boggarts are like ancient liches that go down in one hit, if you can find them. Not all that dangerous if you've seen them and take precautions, but boggarts I think are only easy for players that are really good at beating the game. For those of us who forget about the their scrolls of blinking at the wrong time, they're real threats worth no XP.

[XuaXua]

One trick is to polymorph the Boggart. Their HD is low enough that they can turn into stuff like rats. Though, do be warned, as polymorphing a rat can make a Boggart.

YES. I KNOW.

[TwilightPhoenix]

One thing I just discovered in my recent game. Boggarts can summon a pack of Boggarts. I see one by itself. It casts a spell and three more Boggarts appear. I promptly run away.

[smock]

Boggarts also come in packs and can blink. Where some of the boggarts really marked as summoned!?

[Galefury]

Boggarts use shadow creatures, which summons monsters that can spawn naturally on the current floor. Which means in any place where you can naturally encounter boggarts they can summon more boggarts.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Boggarts also come in packs and can blink. Where some of the boggarts really marked as summoned!?

Yes. I'm waiting for the day I see a pack all use Shadow Creatures at the same time and each summon a pack of Boggarts. Knowing Crawl's RNG, it'll happen sooner or later.

[Grimm]

njvack: Thank you. I agree this is not good enough. You could inquire with the Task Force if they have improved this description. And if not, try to think of an improvement and suggest it to them.

I am rewriting the boggart description right now.

[Grimm]

A malevolent and dangerous little sprite. Although physically unprepossessing, boggarts can rapidly summon large numbers of creatures, including more boggarts, to do their perverse bidding. Boggarts can also cloud minds and render themselves unseen.

[Tiber]

A malevolent and dangerous little sprite. Although physically unprepossessing, boggarts can rapidly summon large numbers of creatures, including more boggarts, to do their perverse bidding. Boggarts can also cloud minds and render themselves unseen.

I don't know, that almost seems too textbook. I'd go for something like:

A mischievous sprite which likes to hide and play tricks on unsuspecting travelers. It doesn't seem like much, but watch out when it decides to bring its friends!

[Grimm]

We're actually shooting for a textbook feel, in order to make the descriptions more useful to unspoiled players, and those too lazy to look things up. We're also avoiding direct addresses to the player.