Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex


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Post Friday, 7th December 2018, 20:19

Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Big Nemelex shake up in the works. Inventory micromanagement: the mini game will be no more.

What's changing, in brief:

  • No more decks as items. No more deck rarities.
  • Nem worshippers have 3 abstract decks that Nem adds cards to and that other Nem abilities interact with.
  • Cards are drawn via the ability menu
  • Nem abilities are very similar to the old ones, except stack five
  • Stack five now lets you draw 5 cards, each draw from a potentially different deck, order them, and then draw from this stack at a later time. Making a new stack discards the old one.

What's changing, in the long:


Feedback wanted:

Playable experimental coming to web tiles servers near you soon, hopefully. Until then, that branch compiles and runs, so you can try it out at home.

I'd like playtesting feedback about your experiences with this new Nem. Priorities are: user interface (both minor tweaks and major screws), overall power and ability cost feeling (the costs are up in the air right now), and overall "Nemelex Experience" compared to old Nem.

Feedback on individual card effects isn't that useful unless the issue is that the particular card or card effect just does not work with this new Nemelex. I know that the cards aren't perfect, but we'll leave that for another thread.

One bit of Theorycrafting feedback that is definitely not helpful: "Wouldn't you always want to only stack escape?" yes, that's a problem that this new nemelex shares with old nemelex, but I'm not sure I'm up to solving it in this round of revision.

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Post Saturday, 8th December 2018, 02:40

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I tried this. It's a lot like hellcrawl nemelex, except that you've gone the extra mile of totally eliminating decks as items, which is very good. This solves the item interface issues.

As far as balance goes, it seems the player gets somewhat fewer cards, which is good, but still probably too many. Dropping card rarity compresses the possibilities of the card effects and hurts the "fun" factor. Panlord summons may not be very balanced, but they're memorable and entertaining. You can maintain the rarity thing by making rarity a property of cards visible from the cards' "backs," i.e. the player can see the rarity of the top card (then of course you need to deal new cards to the bottom of decks).
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Post Saturday, 8th December 2018, 02:51

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Now available as a web tiles experimental

Check it out on cpo and cko. Thanks chequers and floraline for hosting this!
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 02:29

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Et ... 020529.txt

I think I said this in the chat, but in case not: Nemelex is my least-played god, and I generally didn't put any effort into using his abilities optimally or maybe even properly at all. So my comparisons in terms of power, Nemelex-perience, etc. might be way off compared to someone who actually liked playing with him.

So, I definitely found this more fun than old Nem. Being able to draw a bunch of cards on demand, and not worrying about inventory space or going to pick up a bunch of decks afterwards, was much nicer to play than before. I don't think I got cards too quickly; it was fast, but it also meant I could pull out a bunch at once and not worry too much about having to wait a while until I could do that again. Which compares fairly well to old Nem except with much less backtracking.

I didn't use deal four at all, there was never a point where losing all my cards was going to be worth it. *Maybe* if I got into a real oh-shit moment, but that never happened. I don't know if anything can be done to this ability short of "don't lose all your cards" to make it more appealing. I'm not sure if it would anger Nemelex fans, but dropping that ability entirely in favour of something that burns up an extra card or two to significantly increase the card power and power level sounds appealing to me, especially as there's no way to control the power level with new Nemelex.

Interface was fine, apart from a few minor problems you know about already. I kept wanting to hit the wrong letters for decks for some reason, but that's probably just me, and I can remap them in any case.

I think Nemelex's cards need a general rework. Summonings are generally fine although I found most of the summons fairly weak in the late-game, and even with max piety and 15+ invo I was still getting often hostiles with foxfire, lots of low power level effects, etc. But destruction and escape just seem to have a lot of potential duds -- pain is useless against a lot of late-game monsters, vitriol seemed to not usually deal much more damage than my acid wands at 6 evo, storm displaces everything, tomb is very situationally useful, etc. I know there are abilities to cycle through cards faster, but having so many often-unhelpful cards and then abilities which translate into "avoid the unhelpful stuff" seems a bit backwards. And when you compare Nemelex's abilities to a god like Makhleb who's stuff is more consistent *and* gives you passive healing, I feel like Nemelex doesn't measure up.

Anyhow all this is to say I think that more work on Nemelex is needed -- but you seem well aware of that. As for what this change attempts to fix, I think it's a success.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 03:24

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Deal Four is by far the coolest Nemelex ability but by far the least useful. There are two changes I would make to it:
- Greatly reduce or even remove the piety cost. It is absolutely ridiculous for it to cost more piety than Triple Draw, let alone 4x as much, which is what it costs right now. It could cost 0 piety and would still not be used that often, since it gives you much less control than drawing cards one by one; you don't want to spend four cards when one or two would do the job.
- If you use it on a deck with less than 4 cards, just stop drawing cards early instead of drawing from Punishment. (Who thought that was a good idea in the first place?)

If the abilities must have ascending piety costs, then change it to Deal Three and change Triple Draw to Quadruple Draw.

I like this revamp a lot. I previously advocated for infinite cards available, but now I think the 3-finite-deck system is better, because it ensures you'll actually use all three decks.
One change I would still make is to greatly increase the number of destruction cards compared to summoning/escape - by their nature, a single destruction card does less than a single summoning/escape card. Currently the weights are 5:4:2 destruction:summoning:escape, which is 46%:36%:18%. I think it would be better as 18:4:2 or 18:3:3, which is 75% destruction.

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 03:39

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

kitchen_ace wrote:I didn't use deal four at all, there was never a point where losing all my cards was going to be worth it. *Maybe* if I got into a real oh-shit moment, but that never happened. I don't know if anything can be done to this ability short of "don't lose all your cards" to make it more appealing. I'm not sure if it would anger Nemelex fans, but dropping that ability entirely in favour of something that burns up an extra card or two to significantly increase the card power and power level sounds appealing to me, especially as there's no way to control the power level with new Nemelex.


I strongly agree with this part.
I played in three ways: Warrior, Wizards, and enchanter. To check whether Nemelex is the god of the warrior or the god for everyone. Fortunately, Nemelex was also useful for wizards and enchanter(There was a small problem that the cards were more consumed than the warriors.). I've only played a few times, so I'm going to need more play to give the right feedback, but... One thing is for sure.
I've never used 'deal four' in every game. Old Nemelex had many cards. So it wasn't a big burden to burn a deck. But new Nemelex doesn't have many cards. It was too risky to throw away a deck for uncertain gains. Old deal four is not appropriate for New Nemelex.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 03:55

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Agree about tweaking proportions of cards. Also think it'd be worth looking at making the loss of cards the only cost of using the abilities, i.e. no piety.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 04:14

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

tealizard wrote:Also think it'd be worth looking at making the loss of cards the only cost of using the abilities, i.e. no piety.
This is a really cool idea but it does require replacing or removing Stack Five.

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 04:37

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

One thing I've never understood about Nemelex, old and new, is whether piety gain was tied to card use. I heard many times, "Use your cards often" but I wasn't sure whether this was an actual piety mechanism that I never tracked down as actually existing, or simply a maxim reflecting the number of cards available. In new Nem, card supply is definitely something that needs to be watched, making Draw Four unattractive.

What if instead of:
tealizard wrote:making the loss of cards the only cost of using the abilities, i.e. no piety.
using cards is actually the way to gain piety? Make piety decay above average, and players really will be encouraged to draw frequently. The cost of Triple Draw becomes drawing three cards but only gaining one card's worth of piety. Draw Four gains e.g. six cards worth of piety to make it worth doing--Nemelex rewards gambling! Stack Five costs piety to do the sorting--Nemelex disdains planning--plus you forfeit the piety gain for the stacked cards when you do finally play them.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 04:50

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Yeah, I'd favor removing Stack Five. It cuts against the randomized theme and mechanics of the god.

@MainiacJoe: Recent versions of Nemelex are exploration piety only. I think the player is already encouraged to draw, since the cards are quite good, but maybe a stack limit would provide further inducement. At least the player wouldn't be thinking about saving cards beyond a certain point.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 07:30

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

duvessa wrote:Deal Four [...] Greatly reduce or even remove the piety cost.


Even with zero piety cost I still think I never would have used this ability -- the hit to your deck is too strong unless you're in a real do or die situation, or you're down to around 4 cards in a deck.

In general piety was a non-issue in my game, card availability was always the limiting factor by far. Before you could at least conceivably spend a lot of piety on Stack Five once you had more decks than you knew what to do with.

So that gives me another idea: remove piety cost from all Nemelex abilities, make piety gain very slow (but keep cards coming at about the same rate), and have high piety grant much more card power and chance to improve power level. Having no piety cost for abilities would differentiate Nemelex a bit (especially from other Invo-using gods), and having cards regularly get strong effects would make Nem more useful at later parts of the game, as well as mirroring the power curve of old Nem where by the late game you are almost always using legendary decks.

Maybe a bit much for this current revision though...

tealizard wrote:Yeah, I'd favor removing Stack Five. It cuts against the randomized theme and mechanics of the god.


While I admit Stack Five kind of goes against Nemelex' theme, I found it a really useful and enjoyable ability, especially now as you can pull cards from multiple decks but can't go around stacking all of your decks.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 09:11

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

kitchen_ace wrote:mirroring the power curve of old Nem
do we actually want to mirror that?

IMO card potency should be determined solely by invocations skill, not piety

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 10:01

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

kitchen_ace wrote:
So that gives me another idea: remove piety cost from all Nemelex abilities, make piety gain very slow (but keep cards coming at about the same rate), and have high piety grant much more card power and chance to improve power level. Having no piety cost for abilities would differentiate Nemelex a bit (especially from other Invo-using gods), and having cards regularly get strong effects would make Nem more useful at later parts of the game, as well as mirroring the power curve of old Nem where by the late game you are almost always using legendary decks.

Maybe a bit much for this current revision though...

tealizard wrote:Yeah, I'd favor removing Stack Five. It cuts against the randomized theme and mechanics of the god.


While I admit Stack Five kind of goes against Nemelex' theme, I found it a really useful and enjoyable ability, especially now as you can pull cards from multiple decks but can't go around stacking all of your decks.


duvessa wrote:
kitchen_ace wrote:mirroring the power curve of old Nem
do we actually want to mirror that?

IMO card potency should be determined solely by invocations skill, not piety


Ok. Remove piety cost from all Nemelex abilities. and card potency should be determined solely by invocations skill, not piety.
That's good.

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 15:17

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Thank you all for the feedback. The following adjustments have been made, and will be live on the experimentals soon. (They already are on cko)

  • The concern about "missing legendary abilities" was more than a feeling: when removing rarities and setting power purely as a function of invocations and piety I tuned the function to the wrong distribution. That has been changed, the adjusted formula cuts closer to the old average legendary effect rate most places in the invocations, piety plane, except that at low invo and high piety legendary effects are fewer.
  • The cost of Deal Four was definitely too high; now it costs no piety (only cards). Dealing Four from a deck with fewer than four cards now just deals the remaining cards.
  • The cost of Triple Draw has been raised: being able to guarantee that you always get three choices for your triple draw has made an already strong ability stronger.

It's very easy (as this thread has already demonstrated) to get paralyzed by mission-creep in any sort of crawl revising. While I plan to look at Velocity I don't want to get into a whole card revision this round.

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 20:45

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

duvessa wrote:One change I would still make is to greatly increase the number of destruction cards compared to summoning/escape - by their nature, a single destruction card does less than a single summoning/escape card. Currently the weights are 5:4:2 destruction:summoning:escape, which is 46%:36%:18%. I think it would be better as 18:4:2 or 18:3:3, which is 75% destruction.


I'd experiment with a two-factor weighting system where the chance of a new card being assigned to any given deck was a hybrid of raw rarity weights and current deck sizes. This would still emphasize that cards from some decks should be naturally more common than those from others, while also allowing players some flexibility in the frequency which they prefer to use different decks. For example:

Ad = Wd * (Ss / Ws + Se / We)
As = Ws * (Sd / Wd + Se / We)
Ae = We * (Ss / Ws + Sd / Wd)

where Ad is the adjusted weight for destruction, Ws is the raw weight assigned to summoning cards, and Se is the size of the escape deck, etc. This would mean that if you have only one deck with cards in it, there is no possibility the next card gifted will go into that deck.

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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 21:22

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

That incentivizes avoiding drawing destruction entirely, in order to keep the destruction deck as large as possible and thereby get more summoning/escape cards.
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Post Sunday, 9th December 2018, 22:26

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I think it is more intuitive for card gifts to be either flat across all decks or weighted towards emptier decks.

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Post Monday, 10th December 2018, 04:36

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Any changes to the dealing distribution will not condition the deal on currently available cards, because regardless of the function that you pick it will encourage the player to draw in weird ways to manipulate their gifts.

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Post Monday, 10th December 2018, 22:32

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Could be possible to think a rework of storm card?

Its effects are quite weird to be a destruction card: it works sort of escape card, pushing enemies aways, it summons elementals and only deals damage via clouds - which most monsters will avoid.
On the other hand, it fucks positioning, do a tons of noise, force the player to stand still without being able to damage monsters in melee (especially bad against ranged ones).

Personally, I avoid a lot of times to use destruction dekcs just due storm card.
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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 17:15

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/sdynet/morgue-sdynet-20181211-155539.txt

TrFi all rune clear.

Overall, it was a satisfying experience. I was completely free from the terrible pain of managing my inventory. The card gift was generous and the Deal Four was very useful.
Deal Four and Stack Five were used frequently, but Triple Draw was not used very much. In the original I had more than 50 cards. So it wasn't a burden to write one out of the three chapters and throw away two. But in the new game, I can have up to 39 (+5) cards, which are actually lower. It was burdensome to waste two cards.
There is another problem that makes me reluctant to use Triple Draw. When I used Triple Draw, I saw many overlapping cards.
tomb, tomb, tomb
shaft, shaft, cloud
cloud, exile, cloud
Whenever I saw this, I felt like using Triple Draw was a waste.

In case of Stack Five... I don't have much to complain about. If I have to find a problem... There were times when all five cards I picked were all messed up. I wanted to get a chance at Shuffle. But I don't know if this is a good idea.
Deal Four? This is no problem. It's always useful. I think MP consumption is a little bit high, but this is the cost I have to pay.

I've never felt like I was short of cards, but... When all three decks were full, the act of lighting up an empty space was felt to be a waste. I didn't get this feeling when I trusted other gods. It's very difficult to fill piety by 200 anyway, so I don't have to worry if my resources go over the limit.
But in the new game, my resources Sometime reached the limit. When resources were full, I thought of stopping exploration and coming back when resources were scarce. I didn't do it because I thought it was annoying. But that's a good way. I think people need an alternative before they do this stupid thing.
Boosting the cycle of the next gift or I thought of a new power. Usually off, but when all decks are full, the power is on when you receive a gift.

Gift deck(New ability): get a gift
This problem will be solved to some extent.

One last thing. Is it intended that a card cannot be used while in silence?

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 06:45

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

More adjustments now live or soon to be live:

  • It was not intended to prevent using decks while silenced. That has been fixed.
  • The UI workflow for stacking five has been streamlined.
  • The top of your stack shows in the ability menu.
  • Attempting to cancel a damaging card asks for confirmation. This corrects a targeter issue where if you declined to fire when given a "Really fire at?" prompt the card would be cancelled.
  • Velocity has been reworked and no longer hastes or swifts foes at low power.

We're looking at Storm but don't keep playing the "What about card X" game or we'll never launch this ship. duvessa's got a great card thread started so go there for your card related theory crafting.

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 07:16

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

sdynet wrote:I've never felt like I was short of cards, but... When all three decks were full, the act of lighting up an empty space was felt to be a waste. I didn't get this feeling when I trusted other gods. It's very difficult to fill piety by 200 anyway, so I don't have to worry if my resources go over the limit.
But in the new game, my resources Sometime reached the limit. When resources were full, I thought of stopping exploration and coming back when resources were scarce.
This is an issue with piety being capped in general - kills or revealed tiles are wasted if you're already at maximum piety, incentivizing the player to save them for later. But the idea of uncapped piety or uncapped cards is horrifying, so there needs to be a different solution than just uncapping them...
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 16:18

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Bugs in the current version with stack 5:

Pressing a key other than one for a deck (f g h default) ends drawing cards for stack five -- even if no cards are stacked yet.

As you pick cards for stack five, the card count in the decks doesn't decrease, pretty sure it did before.

Other than that I think the newest version is really good.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 17:34

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Thanks for pointing those out. They are now fixed.

I force-updated the branch to include changes from trunk (getting ready for merge). This might break some experimental games, I'm not sure. I think the only possible thing that can go wrong is that some traps on the ground might not be revealed.
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Post Thursday, 13th December 2018, 11:48

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Think this will go into trunk in the next week, then?
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Post Friday, 14th December 2018, 17:16

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Cosplay Challenge with Nemelex as the god choice is up: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/ ... gmund_the/

Seems like CKO doesn't have the latest new-nemelex updates though.
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Post Friday, 14th December 2018, 18:47

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I fixed an issue on CKO that was blocking the build, you should see the latest updates now.
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Post Saturday, 15th December 2018, 07:44

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Thanks floraline!

Bug: after choosing a deck with pick 3, pressing ? to get card descriptions seems to do nothing in webtiles -- works fine in offline tiles though?
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Post Saturday, 15th December 2018, 22:07

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Thanks for the report, this has been fixed!
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2018, 19:02

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

So my impression after a few games on experimental branch.

UI:
- No problems that I could see. It's streamlined and works fine.

No inventory management:
- It's awesome.

Max cards capped at 13:
- Not only quite frustrating, but it also encourages the player to leave large areas of easy levels unexplored, like early D and L, in order to gain some more cards later if/when needed.

Stack 5 only lets you have a stacked set of cards at once:
- This is not only a big nerf to old nemelex but also combines in a negative way with the max cards cap, encouraging the player to use stack5 as soon as they reach the cap, to "make room" for more cards.

Power level of cards:
- Feels more or less like old nemelex, maybe a bit less powerful? Destruction could perhaps use a buff.

Conclusion:
- Even with the significant nerf, I'd much rather play this version due to the inventory issue.
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2018, 17:05

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

This is now live in trunk, coming soon to servers near you. More tweaks to come, thanks to everyone who tested so far.

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Post Thursday, 20th December 2018, 01:50

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

First of all, you did the job. This is the first incarnation of Nemelex that doesn't make me feel like I'm playing a bad variant of DCSS.

I'd consider giving the decks different caps on the number of cards in them. Currently they're all capped at 13, presumably because that's the number of cards in each suit in playing cards. But I think something like 5 escape, 20 destruction, 10 summoning could be more interesting. Accumulated escape cards in particular have the potential to give the player too much of a safety net.


I have more to say about Nemelex's abilities, but it might be out of scope. With that said, here goes: based on a combination of theorycraft, goofing around offline, and goofing around online in Sprint, I think Nemelex's abilities are all pretty much the same at their core. They can all be expressed as "gives you the best card effect out of X, at the cost of wasting Y cards."

Drawing one card gives you the best card out of 1, at the cost of wasting 0 cards.
Triple Draw gives you the best card out of 3, at the cost of wasting the other 2.
Deal Four gives you the best card out of 4 and theoretically a bonus, at the cost of wasting between 0 cards and the entire deck.
Stack Five gives you the best card out of 5, at the cost of wasting like 1/100th of a card (due to the gift chance reduction from the piety cost).

Of these effects, Stack Five blows the other three out of the water. With old Nemelex it's not a stretch to say you should use Stack Five whenever you have it available, even if you're just using it on a summoning deck because you've already stacked all your escape decks. With new Nemelex you should also always use Stack Five if your stack is low.

The Deal Four effect unambiguously beats Triple Draw if the deck has 3 or fewer cards, but quickly becomes hilariously bad if the deck is large. With old Nemelex it was just always bad because of the piety cost.

With old Nemelex I would spam Triple Draw because the loss of 2 cards didn't matter much. Now it matters a lot more, so I use Triple Draw a lot less. This is a good thing.
However, I'm also only ever using Triple Draw on escape. It's not worth throwing away 2 destruction or summoning cards to get to the best one an average of 1 turn earlier.
And I find I'm doing the same with Deal Four, only ever actually dealing four cards from escape. If the escape deck has few cards left or I'm super desperate I'll use Deal Four on escape, otherwise I'll use Triple Draw on escape. I will use Deal Four on destruction sometimes if it has 2 or 3 cards, but the point of Deal Four is certainly not to deal two cards.

If I'm using Deal Four and Triple Draw in the same tactical situations, the choice just depending on how many cards are left in the deck...what's the point of having both abilities at all? And I wouldn't be using them at all if I could stack multiple decks. Indeed, I am already almost never using them because just drawing my stacked cards is so much better as an emergency tool, and if the situation is not an emergency then I don't want to throw away a whole deck on it.

So, here is how I would look to change these abilities:
Make Triple Draw show the top card of all three decks, instead of the top three cards of one deck
This preserves Triple Draw's core mechanic while making it less similar to Deal Four.
You could get rid of the piety cost as tealizard suggested, I'm ambivalent about that, the cost is pretty small already.

Make Deal Four require at least 4 cards in the deck, but don't destroy the rest of the deck
After trying it out more, I think Deal Four should require that the deck has at least 4 cards in it. Like I said earlier in this post, drawing 2 cards shouldn't be the best-case scenario for an ability called Draw Four.
I think that Deal Four should simply not destroy the rest of the deck. Only destroy the 4 cards that are drawn. There is the concern that this ability would be used all the time, since it's strictly better than drawing the 4 cards one at a time...but you seldom need as many as 4 cards, and even if you do, you don't necessarily want to draw them all at once, because some cards react badly to being drawn at the same time. If I use Deal Four on escape, it can draw Tomb followed by Exile, banishing me. If I use it on Destruction, two tier-2 Orb cards will cancel each other out, and drawing a Storm card is likely to make the remaining cards whiff or even leave me with a hostile air elemental. If I use it on Summoning, it's very likely to waste the last few summons because all the squares in the summoning radius of 2 got occupied by the first couple of cards.

I would use this hypothetical version of Deal Four on destruction occasionally, on escape about as often as I do now, and still almost never use it on summoning. To make me use it on summoning, you'd need to reduce the number of monsters created by individual summoning cards.

Reduce Stack Five's Stack Size
Five is too many.

Here is one good way to use Stack Five: as soon as it becomes available, stack escape cards for the first 2 or 3 and fill the remaining slots with destruction cards. Next time you're in an emergency, draw the Tomb and Elixir you put on top or whatever. After that, make a similar stack again, throwing away the crap you left on the bottom of the stack.
Whether the stack size is 1 or 10, you will have that situation where you want to throw away your current stack to make a better one. But I submit that it should never be optimal to put bad cards in the stack because you think you're just going to throw them away anyway. So a smaller stack size would be better.
I'd even look at having a stack size of 1; you set aside one single card, a literal ace in the hole. It could be the top card of a chosen deck, or you could make it like Triple Draw where you're shown 3 or 5 or X cards and you pick one of them to set aside and the rest are wasted.

edit: one way you could make "Ace in the Hole" cooler would be to give the set-aside card enhanced power when you draw it. Using the ability and setting aside regular Vitriol would feel lame, but setting aside a Vitriol that gets double power? That's something you'd definitely want to use instead of discarding immediately. This relies on card power being useful for all cards, though.

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Post Thursday, 20th December 2018, 11:03

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Good post duvessa, I agree with everything you said.
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Post Friday, 28th December 2018, 17:16

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

sdynet wrote:https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/sdynet/morgue-sdynet-20181211-155539.txt

TrFi all rune clear.

I've never felt like I was short of cards, but... When all three decks were full, the act of lighting up an empty space was felt to be a waste. I didn't get this feeling when I trusted other gods. It's very difficult to fill piety by 200 anyway, so I don't have to worry if my resources go over the limit.
But in the new game, my resources Sometime reached the limit. When resources were full, I thought of stopping exploration and coming back when resources were scarce. I didn't do it because I thought it was annoying. But that's a good way. I think people need an alternative before they do this stupid thing.


https://webzook.net/soup/morgue/trunk/s ... 044017.txt
Gh Fi 4rune death.

https://webzook.net/soup/morgue/trunk/s ... 155930.txt
HO Fi 5rune clear.

Can you see action table?(ATTACHMENTS)
HO finished earlier than Tr. But HO used a lot more cards. Why is that?
[When resources were full, I thought of stopping exploration and coming back when resources were scarce. I didn't do it because I thought it was annoying. But that's a good way.]
Yes. I used this method. As expected, this method was both annoying and stupid but effective.

Tr used Deal Four 37.
Gh used Deal Four 4.
HO used Deal Four 11.
Tr's Deal Four did not empty the deck. This was very powerful and useful. However, after changing the deck to empty, this is reluctant to use. I can make up for Triple Draw's failure. But Deal Four's failure is irreparable. okay. I understand me looking at three Shaft cards in Triple Draw. This is unpleasant, but I have another card left. This failure is manageable.
But I also saw three Shaft cards in Deal Four(In last floor). It was a nightmare :o . Deck of Escape mocked me and left. After I realized the danger of Deal Four, I reduced using it.

We've lost our legend. I had to reduce the use of piety to maintain my card power. I often enjoyed using Stack Five with Deck of Destruction, but the more I lost the power of the card.(Stack Five 14 for Tr shown in action table is a typographical error. I used Stack Five from early game. It's at least 20 times.)
Finally, I gave up using Stack Five to maintain my power. Did you find Tomb? Okay. You don't need Stack Five anymore.

duvessa wrote:Make Deal Four require at least 4 cards in the deck, but don't destroy the rest of the deck

Reduce Stack Five's Stack Size
Five is too many.

Here is one good way to use Stack Five: as soon as it becomes available, stack escape cards for the first 2 or 3 and fill the remaining slots with destruction cards. Next time you're in an emergency, draw the Tomb and Elixir you put on top or whatever. After that, make a similar stack again, throwing away the crap you left on the bottom of the stack.
Whether the stack size is 1 or 10, you will have that situation where you want to throw away your current stack to make a better one. But I submit that it should never be optimal to put bad cards in the stack because you think you're just going to throw them away anyway. So a smaller stack size would be better.
I'd even look at having a stack size of 1; you set aside one single card, a literal ace in the hole. It could be the top card of a chosen deck, or you could make it like Triple Draw where you're shown 3 or 5 or X cards and you pick one of them to set aside and the rest are wasted.

edit: one way you could make "Ace in the Hole" cooler would be to give the set-aside card enhanced power when you draw it. Using the ability and setting aside regular Vitriol would feel lame, but setting aside a Vitriol that gets double power? That's something you'd definitely want to use instead of discarding immediately. This relies on card power being useful for all cards, though.


Make Deal Four require at least 4 cards in the deck, but don't destroy the rest of the deck. I agree with this opinion. Stack Five... Well, it would be okay to get rid of the cost of piety, or change to "Ace in the Hole".
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 29th December 2018, 02:59

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I had a 15 rune Neme game and used stack 5 seven times (all on escape deck), triple draw 3 times (when I want a destruction shot but really don't want pain against undead or something), and deal 4 zero times. I draw destruction 144 times and summoning 81 times.

Basically I played it the same way as old neme minus the inventory hassle which seems like its in a good spot.

The only problem is deal 4. You never want to use deal 4 unless you have 4 or less cards and you are in some big trouble. But if you are in serious trouble, you should use blink or elixer or tomb instead. Old neme let you use deal 4 without weighing such conditionals since you had many decks to throw away.

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Post Saturday, 29th December 2018, 04:17

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

In bcrawl I decided to have a 20 card max deck size, have no piety cost for Triple Draw, and make Deal 4 not destroy the deck.

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Post Tuesday, 1st January 2019, 13:45

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Some thoughts about new Nemelews after a couple of games.

First of all: thank you a lot, now this god is playable instead of being a mess of micromaging of items. New form is quite balanced too!
Some changes I'd like very much:

1) I loathe the storm card. Infinitely. Early on is very strong but later it has so many drawbacks - fuck up positioning, lot of noise while forcing you to stay in on place, bad sinergy with a lot of other cards, summon an elemental - that from mid-game onwards I often don't draw destruction any more, unless the situation is easy enough that I wouldn't need to or is so desperate anything storm does wouldn't worsen it. I'd really really like a re-factoring of this card - or just the removal.

2) The pain card at 3rd power shouldn't summon a flayed ghost, in my opinion. That's the job of summoning deck. It could be give another effect to compensate that - dunno, torment of anything alive except player, or whatever.

3) I realized this only after some time: the hard cap of 13 cards really annoys me. This is not a power issue: sure, with this new variant the player mid-game onwards will have on average far less cards, but this is arguably a good chance.
The problem is that combined with exploration-piety gain system, the player is encouraged to leave behind easier levels\part of levels to explore just to gain some cards back in case he runs out in harder floor - e.g. last branches' ones.
This depend more on how (bad) piety exploration system works, but while with e.g. Ely is difficult to burn "all" piety on two or three difficult combat, at least for me wasn't hard to burn 6/8 summonings cards especially in later game (see "issue" below) and so it would be a very good idea to have some easy yet unexplored territory to get some card back before proceed further. The easiest way to solve this would be probably to just give piety on kill which works far better in DCSS.

4) I've played just a couple of game up late game, but it seems to me the power level of the card scales very very badly. At invo 10ish is already common to get level 2 power card, which translate for e.g. summonings of footaurs or mosquito or whatever that will just steamroll everything up mid-game. However, even at 27 invo you'll more often get lv.2 power card and very very rarely lv.3 - I think I'd seen a pan lord only three or four time, and getting mosquitos or bees (!!!!) on V:5 or Zot isn't so useful. I really think the power curse should be smoothed, in order to make Nemelex significantly not so powerful early on and (significantly) more later.

5) there was a 5 issue but I don't remember right now. I'll eventually edit the message.

A couple of minor nuisance:
1) the description of stack five isn't clear, at least for me. I had to use it the first time to understand that the stack is separated from the three decks and I could go back to 13 cards for each deck + 5 in the stack
2) sometime when I had only one deck with less than 13 cards I got the message: "nemelex was to drawn but you had enough cards" or whatever it is. It isn't clear, I think it should specify that he wanted to draw cards only in decks you had already full - unless this is a bug.

I share powers' analys of Duvessa, but I've an idea a power alternative to stack five: the point of Nemelex' power is either reduce the randomness of the cards (ordering them), or increase their power (by drawing more essentially).

My idea: the player can choose the card of the deck he wants, and the deck will be cycled until it is found, discarding any card before. It is guaranteed to be found (even if the decks doesn't actually have it!) and to be at full 3rd level power (or eventually, enhanced, as Duvessa proposed).

So for example, the player choose tomb from escape deck.
It is the 3rd card of the deck? Good, only 2 card discarded.
The deck doesn't actually have it? It will be emptied, but the player will still have a full tomb effect.

I see this power could be very powerful - e.g. Tomb - but it could possibly used only very rarely, which I think would make still very balanced. For example, Zin and Ely provide protection from death much more reliably as 5* piety.
The deck probably should have a minimum of cards (5?) to avoid abuse and it should cost a large amount of piety (to avoid a lot of use in rapid sequence, if the player is very lucky).
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Post Tuesday, 8th January 2019, 08:43

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I like all of the changes. Thanks for fixing the god.

The abyss card feels like a trap. Perhaps it could be adjusted to not abyss the user. I am not sure what the rate is but I had a low level character ran into a named that was hasted. I used escape and was sent to the abyss. I understand that I should have not used escape unless there were more enemies, but it seems like the situation I outlined is a common one for followers of this god and it should send you to the abyss which is a death sentence.

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Post Wednesday, 9th January 2019, 02:37

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Deal Four has been re-adjusted: it's gained a piety cost and no longer clears the deck. This really was too severe.

Deck size has been adjusted: Destruction now has 26 cards; the dealing frequency has been weighted further towards destruction over the other two.

Storm card is going to be revised, chequers has a patch in progress.

The Exile card might need a look, but banishing yourself is a great escape at higher levels so it's not so straightforward. I think another top to bottom full card review is in order but that is something I don't have the energy to tackle for this release I don't think.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd January 2019, 05:35

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

The revised storm is in trunk. Try it out.

Storm now produces the wind blast, followed by 1-9 radius 3 electrical explosions placed far enough away to not damage you. Explosions are placed at a uniform draw of eligible target cells, but you get one explosion per cell, so if you're in a corridor around a corner and can only see one cell distance four away from you you'll get a lot less from this card than in more appropriate terrain.

Still some bad synergy with summon cards, but it's not the only destruction card with this property and that's just part of the Nemelex experience.

The damage numbers for storm might need some work, maybe also its frequency in the deck.

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Post Tuesday, 19th February 2019, 12:41

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

https://webzook.net/soup/morgue/0.23/sd ... 110650.txt
I played FoEE this time. And get all rune. I was unhappy with cloud card and pain card, but I won't mention this because everyone knows it. I don't have much to say to you. That's because most of the problems have been solved. :) One thing I have to say is that triple draw should be improved.
I used power in the game as follows.
deal four - 49
stack five - 13
triple draw - 2
triple draw has three costs. MP, Piety, two cards, (plus probability of not having the card you want). I felt I wasn't worth paying for this. I can have I desired card ready through stack five, and I can maximize the probability of pulling the desired card through deal four. I was satisfied with two. I think it should lower the cost of this, or increase its effectiveness. There are already a lot of detailed opinions on this, so I won't say much longer.

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Post Tuesday, 19th February 2019, 20:23

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

I ran through a dozen or so new-nemlex users in a row this week just to try out corner cases and what not, the mechanics seem generally solid overall.

The only real problems I've seen with cards are:

Degeneration can actually be problematic, particularly early on before triple draw is available. As the game goes on, this is effect seems to go away, but particularly in the early dungeon you seem to end up sometimes making your situation noticeably worse when using destruction decks, several times I incidentally polymorphed something nonthreatening into something nasty while trying to get rid of something vaguely threatening onscreen. Orc packs (with priest and/or warrior in tow) and gnoll packs (with sergeant and/or priest) seemed particularly susceptible to the "I would like some extra help killing these, Nemelex, Aggghh, no! what the heck is with this result!?!? bad god, bad god!!" scenario.

Tomb, every time I used it, it prevented me from escaping, rather than helping me in any way (This was probably just bad luck, rather than an designed drawback, but I'm not sure how tomb could be balanced and also mostly-useful) Tomb, along with a lot of the 'escape' deck is obviously not useful if you have creatures who are already in melee range that you've overestimated your ability with, but the current incarnation seems to frequently be "Let's entomb you in with your enemies, even when they aren't next to you yet" which is rarely (if ever) useful. I started to actively avoid using it after the third time when it walled me in with killer bees I wasn't prepared for and I had to burn yet another teleport scroll, maybe I would've liked it at high cardpower late in the game, who knows.

These cards both had these problems before, but with Nemelex being easier to use, and feeling more focused and clean now, it's easier to see the flaws, as they are put into more stark relief against a cleaner more coherent background.

Both of these cards could probably be removed with no replacement, and I suspect they would not be missed?

The other thing I'm not particularly in love with is exploration based piety, it's not terrible, but it is kind of odd, you tend to accumulate cards while exploring, then your sort of discouraged from exploring until you've lowered your stacks again, ideally on harder combats. I found myself looking at how many cards I had on hand to decide if I should wait on exploring a new area, or if I should run around in my already explored areas shouting to try to pull critters out so I could use cards on them.
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Post Tuesday, 19th February 2019, 23:53

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Siegurt wrote:Both of these cards could probably be removed with no replacement, and I suspect they would not be missed?


I'd probably miss them. I see Tomb as the ability to create a chokepoint on-demand. Degeneration can be used to get rid of dangerous uniques, where in most cases what they're replaced with is a better option. So, I see both of these cards as something to use before a fight.
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Post Wednesday, 20th February 2019, 12:25

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

As said tomb provides an almost unique effect of altering the terrain creating wall - and not only a safe point to rest. It is definitely interesting to use and is it not 100% overpowered as already noticed, you need to be at least 1 square away from enemies.
Moveover, personally I consider the most iconic card of Nemelex.

I would definitely miss it.
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Post Saturday, 2nd March 2019, 20:11

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Free cards are probably too powerful for no piety and 0 failure rate: I cannot think of other gods who can one-shot Death Yak or Spiny Frog when you first meet them.
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Post Sunday, 3rd March 2019, 05:20

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Free cards are probably too powerful for no piety and 0 failure rate: I cannot think of other gods who can one-shot Death Yak or Spiny Frog when you first meet them.


Instead you don't know which card will be used, nor can you control it. I think this is the price of power.

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Post Sunday, 3rd March 2019, 11:44

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

sdynet wrote:Instead you don't know which card will be used, nor can you control it. I think this is the price of power.


It does not matter as long as there are no weak cards in destruction deck, probably I missed some (is degeneration considered weak? It was still great vs Eustachio).

Edit. Degeneration is not weak either:
  Code:
You draw a card... You have drawn Degeneration.
Erolcha evaporates and reforms as a warg!


Edit2. The god becomes much weaker late game despite having Invo 27 (at least decks of destruction and summoning) so I guess the balance is ok overall. I have never used any abilities except free cards and stack 5 (which I haven't used after stacking lol). Probably late game would be easier if I used deal 4 or pick one of 3 lol.

Very fun god, I like it!
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Post Monday, 4th March 2019, 21:26

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

The revision was a nerf but I'm still grateful for the improved QoL, and Nemelex is still very strong (~top tier) even in trunk right now so it's not like a small nerf hurt the choice much. There just aren't many gods that can straight carry you through lair volcanoes, gauntlets, uniques, and most bad encounters the same way.

The reason I call it a nerf is that it's no longer possible to store 2-3 legendary summoning decks, mark yourself in Zot:5, and watch multiple pan lords fry the level while still having half dozen summoning/destruction decks lying around in the dungeon. That was certainly stronger, but crawl didn't need that.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2019, 13:58

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Good to see goldified decks from Nemelex. Not sure if I quite like the hard cap on deck sizes, but maybe it's ok.

From a little bit of code-diving, it looks like gifts from Nemelex increase the gift timeout whether you receive cards or not. If I understand the timeout mechanic correctly, this means that some of your piety gain will go towards decreasing your gift timeout -- even though you didn't receive any gifts. This seems harsh: you effective lose piety for nothing in this case -- and this will incentivize scummy behaviour like leaving areas unexplored so as to not waste piety. Not sure if this is intended behaviour.

I propose that if Nem doesn't gift cards because you're already at max, let it "gift" a chunk of piety instead to compensate for the lost piety from the timeout.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2019, 17:33

Re: Revised^n Report on the god Nemelex

Also, it's not clear why card power uses both invo and piety.

  Code:
power = (invocations * 9) + (piety * (invocations + 25)) / 27 + piety * (3/2)


It should only use invo. Piety is a consumable, invo is a training choice. Usually, when I want my god to do more powerful things, I train more invo. That behaviour should be maintained for Nemelex as well. Using piety in the calculation is neither here nor there.

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