Necromutation, Curing & Confusion


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Blades Runner

Posts: 566

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Friday, 30th November 2018, 21:24

Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Hey guys,

So I've only just got back into the game and one thing I've realised is that if you want to use Necromutation now, with the removal of wands of healing and a few other changes, its pretty nerfed. This may be intentional, but I can't help but feel that for pure casters that want to go extended, CBOE with Necromutation is the way to go...except for the fact that if you end up confused in lich form from CBOE - you are pretty much dead.

My proposal is that lich form can drink potions of curing, and it cures the confusion status - but also reduces your currrent, and max HP by the amount the curing potion would have normally healed you by. Makes sense right - You are drinking "Life" And you are dead... so it hurts you. But allows you a way to get out of confusion.

Apologies if its been raised before or there is some mechanic I don't know about.

Blades Runner

Posts: 572

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Friday, 30th November 2018, 23:50

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Imo lichform should just be able to quaff.
Remove spell hunger.

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delarado, njvack

Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 02:38

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Wands of healing wouldn't help you if you get confused in lichform, as you can't zap while confused. The removal of amulets of clarity is what really hurt, but lichform characters at least have an option for prevention that mummies don't... they can play mutation roulette in hopes of getting the Clarity mutation. This isn't quite as bad as it sounds, because lichform allows you to lock in your mutation state so you don't need to save potions of mutation to recover from malmutate, but it's still a gamble that many players would understandably hesitate to take. Mummies, of course, only have one option except in the rare case where they find an artefact that grants Clarity, which is to worship Ashenzari.

Really, though, I think removing amulets of clarity was a mistake. IMO any condition that can instantly and completely disable a character long enough for them to be reduced from 100% HP to 0% should have a reliable defense available on a non-artifact item. I get that there's a push to make every amulet have some kind of wonky drawback such that it's impractical to swap them reactively, but in that case I'd say it's better to make clarity (and probably stasis or paralysis resistance) into rings where reactive swapping is approved of rather than removing them entirely.

If that's not on the table, another option is to relax the restrictions on which abilities can be used while confused. I believe right now only Purification is allowed, which is not even an option for lichform or mummy characters, as Elyvilon hates the undead. I'd suggest allowing Potion Petition and End Transformation, but for the sake of consistency, maybe any ability that doesn't involve evoking an item or specifying a target should get the green light?

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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 04:07

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

It seems to me that CBOE could just as well paralyze the player and this issue, if it is one, would cease to exist. To me it is the expectation that a specific effect should always be trivially removable by one of the most common items in the game that is the issue here.

I am sympathetic to the argument that necromutation has too great a downside for a spell that sucks outside of very narrow and basically optional situations, but the fact that it stops you from using cure potions to get rid of CBOE confusion is not part of that picture.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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duvessa

Swamp Slogger

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Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 04:21

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

I consider the CBoE + lichform to be a very niche example of a more widespread problem, which is that instant total loss of player control is entirely non-interactive, and an exceptionally unsatisfying way for a run to end. In fact, I'd say that the CBoE + lichform is probably the most excusable example you could choose, as it's very much a player-created situation, with Paralysis Gaze being the least excusable (irresistable, doesn't require LoS, has resulted in high-level characters becoming paralyzed the turn they enter field of vision and getting killed by other previously unseen monsters before the paralysis wore off). Petrification, on the other hand, is a much better game mechanic because it gives you a window in which to deploy some countermeasures.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8529

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 05:28

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Petrification is awful, it's like a more complex and confusing version of paralysis that you can just cancel on the rare occasion it might be dangerous (and usually you just let it happen because basilisks do like no damage anyway).

This often-theorized-about autoexplore-into-paralysis death situation is extremely rare. I think having paralysis is worth the drawback of that situation being possible, because paralysis is a really good status effect: it's simple, your positioning matters a lot against it, you can't just walk away and reset the fight if you get hit with it (unlike 90% of statuses), and unlike all this stuff that can just be cured in one turn, it can actually kill you. It is silly that it nullifies your EV/SH but not your AC though.
And I say this as someone who has had an autoexplore-into-paralysis death, it was even in tournament.
You cannot autoexplore into paralysis gaze unless you're using Chei or something, it takes quite a few aut to "charge up" before it can actually paralyse you.

Confusion is either a 1-turn version of paralysis (if you cure it) or a really obnoxious version of paralysis (if you don't) where you have to go through it turn by turn, moving or quaffing agility or whatever to marginally mitigate the damage, instead of just hitting ESC like you can with real paralysis.
It was more potentially interesting back when you could use non-potion items usefully while confused, decks and rods in particular. Of course it is not worth bringing decks and rods back.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 06:49

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

As someone who has also had an autoexplore-into-paralysis death, I agree that they're rare, but I think part of that rarity comes from players generally prioritizing AC over EV/SH, which is at least in part motivated by the desire to survive paralysis. Funneling players into a single strategy hurts replay value, so I still think this is a problem.

I guess I can see the argument that petrification could be confusing the first time you experience it, but aside from that I think it's a great mechanic. Cancellation is not especially common, unlike potions of curing, the slowing effect means that you can't just outrun enemies while diving into the nearest choke point, and the AC bonus makes it tempting to simply wait out in a lot of situations, especially if you lay down some clouds or something during the warm-up period. You might even want to be petrified if you've laid down a lot of AoE DoT and aren't relying on SH/EV for defense. If survival is iffy and cancellation is unavailable, there are many other countermeasures that can be taken in its place, depending on the situation, leading to some interesting decisions.

Paralysis benefits from none of that. Sure, you can often reduce the damage you take by standing in a chokepoint (or killhole), but that's true even when you're not paralyzed, so that's not adding anything interesting in terms of decision making.

In any case, I'm not advocating for the removal of confusion and paralysis; I'm just saying that players should have the option of spending a gear slot as a countermeasure. This would make builds that aren't reliant on simply soaking damage and especially those that have an acute vulnerability to confusion or paralysis (e.g. mummies) more accessible. At least that way, confusion and paralysis could actually add some strategic depth to the game, as players would have to decide if preventing loss of control was more valuable than whatever alternative gear bonuses were available.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 1st December 2018, 14:06

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

If petrification is awful, confusion is worse. If monsters that confuse you petrified you instead, you'd have a better game.

As for cancellation, isn't that what should remove confusion? Why does a potion of curing have to do anything other than cure poison? It could even be called a "potion of cure poison." This would considerably clarify what each of these potions does.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 2nd December 2018, 15:45

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Why does CBOE still exist in 2018?

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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 00:54

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Rast wrote:Why does CBOE still exist in 2018?


Why wouldn't it?

I agree it's a powerful item and combining it with a high skilled conjuration based character is a very powerful thing, but it does have appropriate drawbacks and requires a lot of skill investment to use effectively.

I can't help but think that by the time you have enough destructive power to warrant needing a CBOE, and enough evocation skills to use it even remotely reliably - you will be at a point in the game where food rations could be low, thus necessitating Necromutation to remove hunger costs.

As far as I know, if you end up confused while under necromutation, there is no way that you can get out of it, except getting beaton on and waiting it out. Essentially turning CBOE into a potential death sentence every time you use it.

I can see how running a character under Necromutation with 27 evocations, constant CBOE and thus almost infinite mana could become cheesy and considered game breaking, but I still think it would be good to offer players a choice in this situation allowing them to get out of it. The risk of complete mana loss, a turn or two of confusion or stat drain is risk enough IMO. Making it impossible to remove an extreme negative status effect that is fairly likely to happen at a point in the game that you really need the item that could cause it is not good in my opinion.

I understand if people consider it too powerful but I just wanted to share my experience and thoughts. CBOE is a good item and I want to use it, but the risk of confusion just makes it basically unusable at the point you really need it IMO.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 01:09

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

delarado wrote:
Rast wrote:Why does CBOE still exist in 2018?


Why wouldn't it?
It's one of countless MP recovery abilities (potions of magic, potions of ambrosia, staff of energy, staff of Wucad Mu, sublimation of blood, like half the gods...), it's crap for the overwhelming majority of characters, and it's by far the most complicated of them - its effect depends on your Evocations skill and your current MP, and for some reason it has three separate failure effects.

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bel

Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 03:16

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Petrification is not harmless. Potions of cancellation are not infinite in number.

Besides, Jorgrun can petrify. And LRD.

bel

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 03:20

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Nekoatl wrote:As someone who has also had an autoexplore-into-paralysis death, I agree that they're rare, but I think part of that rarity comes from players generally prioritizing AC over EV/SH, which is at least in part motivated by the desire to survive paralysis.

I can report that I have never considered paralysis deaths to be a factor in whether I prioritize AC or EV/SH or not. Stuff which happens in maybe 1% of cases shouldn't affect how I play generally.

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 13:13

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

duvessa wrote:
delarado wrote:
Rast wrote:Why does CBOE still exist in 2018?


Why wouldn't it?
It's one of countless MP recovery abilities (potions of magic, potions of ambrosia, staff of energy, staff of Wucad Mu, sublimation of blood, like half the gods...), it's crap for the overwhelming majority of characters, and it's by far the most complicated of them - its effect depends on your Evocations skill and your current MP, and for some reason it has three separate failure effects.


Potion of magic - Doesn't work with necromutation. Generally very rare.
Potion of ambrosia - Doesn't work with necromutation. Not something you can use in a fight.
Staff of Wucad Mu - I've found one; Ever.
Sublimination of blood - doesn't work with necromutation
Half the gods...I suppose, but is very limited.

The character that made me realise this is with Vehumet so I Get an MP refund. However, I still find myself only able to kill 3 or 4 higher level enemies before I have to run for the hills. I have 26 spellcasting, nearly 50 intelligence, max spell power on all of my fire spells and a +10MP item of armor. This isn't a problem you get with melee characters, you run when you get to low HP - which would happen a lot later with the sort of enemies I have to run from when I have a lot more offensive power.

You mention CBOE is crap for the overwhelming majority of characters and I don't disagree that it probably is, but it could be very useful for a lot of character builds. I'm not really proposing changes to CBOE (Unless you just want to remove the possibility of confusion effect, or make it negatable by MR like every other confusion attack in the game) I'm proposing changes to Necromutation to allow you to get out of the confusion status.

Now that clarity isn't a thing you can have, I Feel like something needs to change here...

With the hunger mechnanic, casting spells that you will need to use to do anything other than a 3 rune game means you will run out of food. The only way you can get around this now is using a spell that means you can be unavoidably killed because certain items were removed from the game (Clarity). Fight lots of enemies at once... You run out of food and MP and die by starvation or being killed by monsters you are defenseless against because you can't reliably recover mana. Pick them off one by one, you run out of food faster (due to higher turn count) and die.

It's fine if nobody agrees with me, I just think with other extended capable builds you have ways that are reliable and reusable to get you through the game... Berserk...Heroism/finesse... etc etc. There are a lot of abilities that allow you to massively improve your offensive powers without any real drawback, except piety loss (Which is regained by killing enemies ) Imagine if heroism had a random chance to paralyze you?

A good melee build can literally stand in a choke point, or even out in the open at times, and tab almost all day long with selective use of the correct god given abilities. A character that relies on conjurations cannot do this because they will run out of both food and MP very quickly.

However, blasters in extended have two very finite resource pools that limit their killing potential (MP and food)

Previously, Necromutation and CBOE With clarity was a good way of dealing with this. It allowed you to keep going if used right, but still had a very real possiblity of getting you into trouble that meant it wasn't game breakingly overpowered (Ending up with 0 mana or stat drain in a big fight)

Now, you pretty much have to kill 2-3 enemies and retreat and rest. Or use CBOE on a different floor - neither of which are really an option in places like the abyss or hell.
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 16:10

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

delarado wrote:This may be intentional, but I can't help but feel that for pure casters that want to go extended, CBOE with Necromutation is the way to go

I think this is actually a flawed assumption and not a good place start design-wise; IMO neither necromut nor the CBOE is super compelling even for chars who use a lot of conjurations in extended.

I'm also in favor of "CBOE seems like a weird callback to early DCSS days and warrants a rework or removal" and "lichform should be able to quaff" proposals
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 17:02

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Using Necromutation to circumvent spell hunger strikes me as highly inadvisable. If you can't find or acquire a staff of energy, +INT gear and Spellcasting (which any magic user that cares enough about MP to consider using a CBoE should want to train anyway for the increases to max MP and global spell success/power) go a long way towards mitigating it.

The appeal of Necromutation for extended-game characters, in my opinion, is to guard against bad mutations which, for characters that spend a lot of time fighting the forces of chaos, will eventually exhaust their supply of mutation potions. However, Jiyva and especially Zen are more appealing options for this, provided some other god isn't a core part of your build (though for pure casters, I can think of a few that are likely to be).

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Fingolfin

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 17:39

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Nekoatl wrote:Using Necromutation to circumvent spell hunger strikes me as highly inadvisable. If you can't find or acquire a staff of energy, +INT gear and Spellcasting (which any magic user that cares enough about MP to consider using a CBoE should want to train anyway for the increases to max MP and global spell success/power) go a long way towards mitigating it.



Have a look at this char dump. I have lots of INT. Lots of spellcasting. But If I get in a reasonable sized fight when I'm NOT in necro mode - I go from satiated to near starving every time and have to eat a ration.

Every fight.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But I got to a point where I had to buy every ration in every shop and I still got down to only 2 rations at one point. I felt like I was literally forced to get Necromutation up just to remove hunger costs.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong? But I can't help but feel that food is not plentiful enough for a "Firestormer" type character to go extended without heavy use of necromutation.

Does anyone have any proposals? I still stand by my "Allow undead characters to quaff, but invert the healing or even permanently remove the HP Healed"

That, or as I say - either remove the chance for CBOE to confuse - or make it based on MR, like many other confusion checks. Since clarity is not in the game any more, I feel like a potential unavoidable confusion is very extreme.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22.1-2-g9c5b331 (webtiles) character file.

delarado the Sorcerer (DEFE)                      Turns: 113978, Time: 16:08:05

Health: 160/160    AC: 23    Str:  8    XL:     27
Magic:  50/58      EV: 29    Int: 50    God:    Vehumet [******]
Gold:   1632       SH:  9    Dex: 19    Spells: 5/74 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis .   E - staff of fire
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   q - +3 buckler {reflect}
rNeg     + + +     Faith    .   Y - +2 robe {Archmagi}
rPois    ∞         Spirit   .   U - +3 hat of Pondering {ponderous, MR+ MP+10 Int+5}
rElec    +         Reflect  +   Q - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   K - +1 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
MR       +++++                  L - +2 pair of boots {Fly}
Stlth    +++++.....             N - amulet "Aqeuric" {Acrobat MR+ Str+3}
HPRegen  0.36/turn              C - ring of fire
MPRegen  0.36/turn              n - ring "Riasaew" {MR+ AC+5 Int+10}

@: lich-form, flying, deflect missiles, slow
A: clever 1, low mp 1, electricity resistance
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver
a: End Transformation, Renounce Religion, Stop Flying


You are on level 4 of the Depths.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You are a lich.

You have visited 12 branches of the dungeon, and seen 56 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 2 times.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 6367 gold pieces.
You have spent 4735 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a whip of freezing
Missiles
 S - 123 stones (quivered)
Armour
 q - a +3 buckler of reflection (worn)
 K - a +1 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
 L - a +2 pair of boots of flying (worn)
 M - a +2 hat of magic resistance
 Q - a scarf of resistance (worn)
 U - the +3 hat of Pondering (worn) {ponderous, MR+ MP+10 Int+5}
   (You took it off Gastronok on level 10 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It affects your magic capacity (+10).
 Y - a +2 robe of the Archmagi (worn)
Magical Staves
 E - an uncursed staff of fire (weapon)
Jewellery
 k - the ring "Mawkoll" {rElec rPois Int+2 SInv}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Crypt)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you see invisible.
 n - the ring "Riasaew" (right hand) {MR+ AC+5 Int+10}
   (You took it off a yaktaur captain on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+10).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 C - a ring of fire (left hand)
 N - the amulet "Aqeuric" (around neck) {Acrobat MR+ Str+3}
   (You acquired it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [amulet of the acrobat]
   
   It helps you evade while moving and waiting.
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 V - an uncursed ring of wizardry
Wands
 e - a wand of digging (33)
 f - a wand of iceblast (44)
 A - a wand of scattershot (8)
 F - a wand of acid (95)
 O - a wand of disintegration (43)
 R - a wand of clouds (5)
Scrolls
 j - 3 scrolls of blinking
 m - 7 scrolls of fear
 o - 11 scrolls of teleportation
 w - 10 scrolls of fog
 x - 27 scrolls of remove curse
 y - 4 scrolls of holy word
 G - 10 scrolls of magic mapping
 J - 5 scrolls of identify
 T - 3 scrolls of summoning
 W - 2 scrolls of amnesia
Potions
 d - 4 potions of haste
 g - 3 potions of invisibility
 i - 3 potions of cancellation
 l - 2 potions of agility
 r - 22 potions of curing
 u - 6 potions of magic
 B - 2 potions of resistance
 D - 10 potions of brilliance
 I - 5 potions of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 b - 2 boxes of beasts
 s - 4 phantom mirrors
 t - 2 sacks of spiders
 v - a crystal ball of energy
 z - a lamp of fire
 H - a lightning rod (4/4)
 Z - a fan of gales
Comestibles
 c - 17 rations


   Skills:
 + Level 13.1 Fighting
 - Level 12.0 Staves
 + Level 19.4 Dodging
 + Level 11.9 Stealth
 - Level 4.0 Shields
 + Level 24.2 Spellcasting
 - Level 17.0 Conjurations
 - Level 12.0 Hexes
 - Level 11.0 Charms
 - Level 5.0 Summonings
 - Level 17.4 Necromancy
 - Level 14.0 Translocations
 - Level 13.0 Transmutations
 - Level 18.8 Fire Magic
   Level 6.0 Ice Magic
 - Level 8.0 Air Magic
 - Level 6.9 Earth Magic
   Level 3.0 Poison Magic
 + Level 16.2 Evocations


You have 5 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      #####        0%          1    N/A
b - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         0%          1    N/A
c - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          4%          8    N/A
d - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ##########   0%          5    N/A
e - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          0%          2    N/A
f - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ########..   1%          6    N/A
g - Cause Fear            Hex            ########..   0%          4    N/A
h - Ignition              Fire           ##########   1%          8    N/A
i - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ##########   3%          9    N/A
j - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #########.   0%          3    N/A
k - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ########..   1%          6    N/A
l - Borgnjor's Vile Clut  Necr/Erth      #########.   1%          5    N/A
m - Necromutation         Tmut/Necr      #########.   2%          8    N/A
n - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ########     0%          2    N/A
o - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ########     1%          1    N/A

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Chain Lightning          Conj/Air       ########..   2%          8    N/A
 Lehudib's Crystal Spear  Conj/Erth      ########..   2%          8    N/A
 Apportation              Tloc           ######       0%          1    N/A
 Beastly Appendage        Tmut           ######       0%          1    N/A
 Confusing Touch          Hex            ######       0%          1    N/A
 Corona                   Hex            #######      0%          1    N/A
 Freeze                   Ice            ####         0%          1    N/A
 Infusion                 Chrm           ####         0%          1    N/A
 Sandblast                Erth           ######       0%          1    N/A
 Shock                    Conj/Air       ####         0%          1    N/A
 Corpse Rot               Necr           N/A          0%          2    N/A
 Ensorcelled Hibernation  Hex/Ice        ######       0%          2    N/A
 Passwall                 Tmut/Erth      ########     0%          2    N/A
 Searing Ray              Conj           ######       0%          2    N/A
 Shroud of Golubria       Chrm/Tloc      ########..   0%          2    N/A
 Slow                     Hex            ########     0%          2    N/A
 Song of Slaying          Chrm           ########     0%          2    N/A
 Sublimation of Blood     Necr           #########.   0%          2    N/A
 Throw Flame              Conj/Fire      ######       0%          2    N/A
 Throw Frost              Conj/Ice       ######       0%          2    N/A
 Confuse                  Hex            ########     0%          3    N/A
 Conjure Flame            Conj/Fire      ########     0%          3    N/A
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       ######       0%          3    N/A
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           ########..   0%          3    N/A
 Ignite Poison            Fire/Tmut/Pois ########     0%          3    N/A
 Inner Flame              Hex/Fire       ########     0%          3    N/A
 Lesser Beckoning         Tloc           ########..   0%          3    N/A
 Mephitic Cloud           Conj/Pois/Air  ########     0%          3    N/A
 Portal Projectile        Hex/Tloc       ######       0%          3    N/A
 Recall                   Summ/Tloc      N/A          0%          3    N/A
 Spectral Weapon          Hex/Chrm       ########     0%          3    N/A
 Stone Arrow              Conj/Erth      ######       0%          3    N/A
 Tukima's Dance           Hex            ########     0%          3    N/A
 Force Lance              Conj/Tloc      ########     0%          4    N/A
 Fulminant Prism          Conj/Hex       ########..   0%          4    N/A
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj           ########     0%          4    N/A
 Passage of Golubria      Tloc           N/A          0%          4    N/A
 Sticky Flame             Conj/Fire      ########     0%          4    N/A
 Bolt of Magma            Conj/Fire/Erth #########.   0%          5    N/A
 Excruciating Wounds      Chrm/Necr      #########.   0%          5    N/A
 Irradiate                Conj/Tmut      ########..   0%          5    N/A
 Summon Small Mammal      Summ           ####         1%          1    N/A
 Call Imp                 Summ           ########     1%          2    N/A
 Poisonous Vapours        Pois/Air       ######       1%          2    N/A
 Call Canine Familiar     Summ           ########     1%          3    N/A
 Ozocubu's Armour         Chrm/Ice       ########     1%          3    N/A
 Spider Form              Tmut/Pois      ########..   1%          3    N/A
 Summon Guardian Golem    Hex/Summ       ########     1%          3    N/A
 Ice Form                 Ice/Tmut       ########     1%          4    N/A
 Leda's Liquefaction      Hex/Erth       ########..   1%          4    N/A
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      ########     1%          4    N/A
 Summon Ice Beast         Ice/Summ       ########     1%          4    N/A
 Summon Lightning Spire   Summ/Air       ########     1%          4    N/A
 Alistair's Intoxication  Tmut/Pois      ########     1%          5    N/A
 Aura of Abjuration       Summ           ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Lee's Rapid Deconstruct  Erth           ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Lightning Bolt           Conj/Air       ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Metabolic Englaciation   Hex/Ice        ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Silence                  Hex/Air        ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Summon Demon             Summ           ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Summon Forest            Summ/Tloc      ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Summon Mana Viper        Hex/Summ       ########     1%          5    N/A
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       ########..   1%          5    N/A
 Bolt of Fire             Conj/Fire      ##########   0%          6    N/A
 Bolt of Cold             Conj/Ice       ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Conjure Ball Lightning   Conj/Air       ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Darkness                 Hex            ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Dispersal                Tloc           ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Freezing Cloud           Conj/Ice/Air   ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Hydra Form               Tmut           ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Invisibility             Hex            ########     1%          6    N/A
 Ozocubu's Refrigeration  Ice            ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Poison Arrow             Conj/Pois      ########..   1%          6    N/A
 Simulacrum               Ice/Necr       #########.   1%          6    N/A
 Statue Form              Tmut/Erth      ########.    1%          6    N/A
 Dragon Form              Tmut           ########..   1%          7    N/A
 Haunt                    Necr/Summ      #########.   1%          7    N/A
 Ring of Flames           Chrm/Fire      #########.   1%          7    N/A
 Spellforged Servitor     Conj/Summ      ########..   1%          7    N/A
 Borgnjor's Revivificati  Necr           #########.   1%          8    N/A
 Infestation              Necr           #########.   1%          8    N/A
 Shadow Creatures         Summ           N/A          4%          6    N/A
 Death's Door             Chrm/Necr      #########.   4%          8    N/A
 Disjunction              Tloc           ########..   4%          8    N/A
 Summon Hydra             Summ           ########..   22%         7    N/A
 Glaciate                 Conj/Ice       ########..   41%         9    N/A
 Tornado                  Air            ########..   86%         9    N/A


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:3        Snake (4/4) Lair:2        Slime (5/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:12            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:2       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
    Zot (3/5) Depths:5   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:5 (?:   D:7 !   D:8 =   D:9 [   D:12 ((   Orc:1 :   Orc:2 (((
Elf:2 [   Elf:3 *   Snake:1 =}[   Vaults:4 [   Vaults:5 %!!   Depths:1 [
Depths:3 **(   Depths:5 [(}=

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:4 Depths:5
Pandemonium: Depths:1 Depths:3 Depths:4
Ziggurat: Depths:2

Annotations:
Elf:2 3 runed doors


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
Your magical capacity is low. (-10% MP)
You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec)


Message History

You feel your power returning.
You feel yourself come back to life.
You pass through the gate.
Welcome back to the Depths!
There is a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss here.
You start resting.
HP restored.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Casting: Iron Shot (safe; 1% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You feel a surge of power!
Your body is suffused with negative energy!
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, delarado the Deep Elf Fire Elementalist.
Vehumet says: Let it end in hellfire!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Okay, then.
Saving game... please wait.

  #.#        #.....#
  #.#        #.#..#.
  #.#        #.###..
  #.#        #.#....
  #.##########.#....
  ####.........#####
  ###########...#
 ##∩##      #.###
 #.L.#      #.).#
#♣...♣#     #####
#.....#### ######
#........# #....#
########.###....####
       #...'........
       #####........
           #........
           #........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  the Royal Jelly (Slime:5)
  5 ancient liches
  An orb of fire (Zot:2)
  Mennas (Depths:5)
  Frederick (Depths:5)
  Boris (Vaults:2)
  Vashnia (Snake:2)
  2 curse toes
  4 caustic shrikes
  Xtahua (Depths:5)
  the Lernaean hydra (Swamp:4)
  Nikola (Swamp:1)
  4 golden dragons
  A bone dragon (Abyss:1)
  2 profane servitors (Abyss:1)
  A hellephant (Abyss:1)
  A shard shrike zombie (Crypt:3)
  Rupert (Snake:1)
  An electric golem (Zot:2)
  13 tentacled monstrosities
  35 acid blobs
  A quicksilver dragon (Vaults:5)
  A deep elf master archer (Elf:3)
  2 deep elf blademasters (Elf:3)
  4 liches
  4 titans (Vaults:5)
  4 tentacled starspawn
  4 sphinxes
  6 death cobs
  Gastronok (D:10)
  Frances (D:12)
  8 ancient champions
  Kirke (Snake:1)
  9 shadow dragons
  6 tengu reavers
  2 thorn hunters
  10 storm dragons
  A revenant (Crypt:3)
  18 fire giants
  15 azure jellies
  Roxanne (Snake:3)
  2 draconian monks
  9 nagarajas
  2 daevas (Abyss:1)
  An iron dragon (Depths:4)
  12 frost giants
  5 draconian scorchers
  14 deep elf sorcerers
  A ghost moth (Zot:2)
  An orc warlord (Vaults:4)
  8 vault wardens
  3 draconian knights
  A balrug (Depths:3)
  Louise (Swamp:1)
  4 deep elf elementalists (Elf:3)
  A caustic shrike zombie (Crypt:1)
  5 curse skulls
  5 ghouls
  A draconian annihilator (Zot:2)
  A reaper (Crypt:1)
  17 ironheart preservers
  19 very ugly things
  22 stone giants
  7 green draconians
  2 war gargoyles (Vaults:5)
  4 deep elf demonologists
  8 vampire knights
  2 entropy weavers
  5 black draconians
  8 deep elf annihilators
  5 purple draconians
  2 white draconians
  A minotaur (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  5 red draconians
  6 spark wasps
  A green death (Abyss:1)
  19 ettins
  4 yellow draconians
  4 eidola
  23 yaktaur captains
  A crystal guardian (Vaults:3)
  12 jiangshi
  8 deep elf death magi
  15 fire dragons
  10 ogre magi
  A fire dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  A merfolk impaler (Depths:1)
  11 great orbs of eyes
  Erolcha (D:9)
  Fannar (Lair:3)
  7 deep elf high priests
  26 vault guards
  6 rakshasas
  10 death oozes
  39 hydras
  21 naga warriors
  5 spriggan air magi
  17 ice dragons
  2 catoblepae
  A servant of whispers (Elf:1)
  A ghost crab (Swamp:3)
  8 centaur warriors
  5 death knights
  6 anacondas
  Erica (D:10)
  9 death yaks
  9 dancing weapons
  29 two-headed ogres
  14 alligators
  11 tengu warriors
  12 deep troll shamans
  9 vampire magi
  An orc high priest (Orc:1)
  15 deep troll earth magi
  15 naga sharpshooters
  2 soul eaters
  Sonja (Lair:5)
  4 hell knights
  5 thrashing horrors
  28 deep elf knights
  6 wretched stars
  2 sun demons (Abyss:1)
  A shock serpent (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  7 iron trolls
  A spriggan berserker (Depths:4)
  A salamander mystic (Snake:1)
  2 shock serpents
  9 spriggans
  An anaconda zombie (Crypt:2)
  A shadow wraith (Vaults:1)
  A fire crab (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
  11 skeletal warriors
  2 sixfirhies (Abyss:1)
  39 deep trolls
  4 flayed ghosts
  5 large abominations
  7 glowing orange brains
  5 spatial maelstroms
  2 spriggan druids
  A deep troll (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  10 swamp dragons
  9 unseen horrors
  19 ironbrand convokers
  4 starcursed masses (Abyss:1)
  3 wizards
  7 naga ritualists
  11 phantasmal warriors
  An anaconda skeleton (Crypt:3)
  A golden dragon skeleton (Crypt:2)
  18 deep elf archers
  A wolf spider zombie (D:15)
  A shadow dragon zombie (Vaults:5)
  A lindwurm (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  8 harpies
  4 shambling mangroves
  8 necromancers
  2 orb spiders (shapeshifter)
  7 mana vipers
  24 ugly things
  6 orc sorcerers
  68 deep elf magi
  18 orc knights
  5 oklob plants
  5 human zombies
  An iron dragon zombie (Crypt:3)
  11 shining eyes
  15 moths of wrath
  10 cyclopes
  2 moths of wrath (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  2 cyclopes (shapeshifter)
  8 salamanders
  4 manticores
  An iron dragon skeleton (Crypt:2)
  2 wolf spiders (Vaults:2)
  An elephant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  3 centaur zombies
  14 elephants
  7 guardian serpents
  31 black mambas
  An apocalypse crab (Abyss:2)
  Maurice (D:10)
  A torpor snail (Lair:4)
  A titan simulacrum (Vaults:3)
  5 eyes of devastation
  A spiny frog (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
  A stone giant skeleton (Vaults:2)
  5 spectral swamp worms (Depths:1)
  7 vault sentinels
  32 naga magi
  A centaur skeleton (D:15)
  A gargoyle (D:13)
  2 kobold demonologists (D:13)
  2 smoke demons
  20 spiny frogs
  A death yak zombie (Crypt:1)
  An alligator snapping turtle skeleton (Crypt:2)
  18 yaktaurs
  2 rime drakes (shapeshifter)
  A yaktaur zombie (Vaults:5)
  A sea snake zombie (Crypt:1)
  An efreet (D:13)
  7 komodo dragons
  2 ancient zymes (Abyss:1)
  A demonic crawler (Abyss:1)
  10 freezing wraiths
  A hellwing (Depths:3)
  6 rime drakes
  A harpy zombie (Crypt:2)
  5 human skeletons
  12 trolls
  4 tengu conjurers
  A polar bear (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  3 polar bears (Lair:6)
  A wind drake (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  22 hornets
  A hydra skeleton (Abyss:1)
  2 jumping spiders (shapeshifter)
  11 tyrant leeches
  3 saltlings (Elf:1)
  Grinder (D:5)
  14 blink frogs
  105 slime creatures
  9 hippogriffs
  12 bog bodies
  10 raiju
  11 dream sheep (Lair:5)
  A dream sheep (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  A hippogriff (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  A fire giant simulacrum (Vaults:3)
  A dire elephant simulacrum (Abyss:1)
  2 redbacks (Vaults:4)
  An alligator skeleton (Crypt:3)
  9 flying skulls
  A centaur simulacrum (D:15)
  11 wraiths
  43 yaks
  7 shadows
  A vampire (D:13)
  Eustachio (D:6)
  A redback (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  6 wyverns
  5 water elementals
  6 ynoxinuls
  A basilisk (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
  2 fire elementals
  A yak (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
  4 neqoxecs
  7 golden eyes
  4 basilisks
  4 hogs (Snake:1)
  The ghost of Kay the Cudgeler, an amateur DsMo (D:3)
  A tyrant leech zombie (Crypt:3)
  20 vampire mosquitoes
  A steam dragon (D:4)
  4 human simulacra
  3 hungry ghosts
  10 swamp worms
  6 wargs
  4 acid dragons
  8 spatial vortices
  3 chaos spawn
  52 nagas
  A swamp worm (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  2 floating eyes
  A faun skeleton (Crypt:2)
  A deep troll skeleton (Vaults:2)
  4 hell hounds
  7 water moccasins
  53 orc warriors
  4 porcupines
  3 sky beasts
  A hornet zombie (Crypt:2)
  A manticore zombie (Abyss:1)
  11 swamp drakes
  An ogre (shapeshifter) (Depths:1)
  A sky beast (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  3 black bears
  6 phantoms
  2 elf zombies
  3 ice beasts
  7 eyes of draining
  A necrophage (D:13)
  4 boggarts (Vaults:2)
  43 ogres
  11 wolves
  A snapping turtle skeleton (Abyss:2)
  A blink frog skeleton (Crypt:1)
  8 centaurs
  A centaur (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  A hog skeleton (Crypt:1)
  4 big kobolds
  16 crocodiles
  17 bullfrogs
  4 earth elementals
  A wyvern zombie (Crypt:1)
  A water moccasin zombie (Crypt:3)
  A troll zombie (Crypt:3)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:14)
  5 scorpions
  A yak zombie (Crypt:3)
  12 small abominations
  5 killer bees (D:11)
  24 wights
  An electric eel (Lair:2)
  5 howler monkeys
  6 crimson imps
  2 quasits
  6 hounds
  A bullfrog zombie (D:13)
  5 jellies
  26 orc priests
  A basilisk skeleton (Crypt:1)
  2 bullfrog skeletons
  An iron imp (Abyss:1)
  An iguana (D:8)
  A demonspawn skeleton (Crypt:3)
  23 orc wizards
  7 worker ants
  4 hell rats (Lair:2)
  An ogre zombie (Crypt:3)
  A deep dwarf skeleton (Crypt:1)
  An acid dragon skeleton (Crypt:1)
  A mummy (Crypt:3)
  A hound skeleton (Crypt:1)
  Robin (D:2)
  10 gnolls
  16 adders
  A river rat (Sewer)
  6 shadow imps
  A swamp drake skeleton (Crypt:3)
  A white imp (Abyss:1)
  2 ufetubi (Abyss:1)
  2 oozes
  3 adder zombies
  3 adder skeletons
  4 worms
  A barachi skeleton (Crypt:1)
  2 dart slugs
  4 leopard geckos
  125 orcs
  4 giant cockroaches
  13 goblins
  12 hobgoblins
  10 jackals
  A quokka (D:8)
  5 ball pythons
  5 bats
  2 frilled lizards
  A frilled lizard skeleton (Crypt:2)
  A jackal skeleton (Crypt:2)
  21 kobolds
  A quokka zombie (D:5)
  11 rats
  A bush (Lair:5)
  3 fungi (Lair:5)
  A lurking horror (Abyss:1)
  16 plants
  A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:1)
2518 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A tentacled monstrosity (Zot:2)
  An ironheart preserver (Vaults:5)
  A black draconian (Zot:3)
  A red draconian (Zot:2)
  A yellow draconian (Zot:1)
  A boggart (Vaults:2)
  A swamp dragon skeleton (Crypt:2)
  A lava snake zombie (Crypt:2)
8 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A stone giant (Depths:1)
  A yaktaur captain (Vaults:4)
  A naga sharpshooter (Snake:2)
  An orc knight (Vaults:4)
  A deep elf mage (Elf:1)
  3 yaktaurs
  A spriggan (Swamp:2)
  A small abomination (Abyss:2)
  A white imp (Abyss:1)
  A bush (Lair:6)
  77 fire vortices
  15 fungi
  69 plants
  4 starspawn tentacles (Abyss:1)
177 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2703 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | delarado the Deep Elf Fire Elementalist began the quest for
                  | the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 6/6
   449 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/8
  1264 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/9
  1358 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
  1514 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  1851 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/10
  1928 | D:2      | Killed Robin
  2030 | D:2      | Learned a level 1 spell: Magic Dart
  2694 | D:2      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  2841 | D:3      | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame
  2841 | D:3      | Found a glowing drain.
  2851 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  2866 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 5. HP: 27/28 MP: 6/11
  3150 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
  3721 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/32 MP: 2/12
  4186 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  4193 | D:3      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  4194 | D:3      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  4194 | D:3      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  4196 | D:3      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  4196 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  4197 | D:3      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  4702 | D:3      | Found a large runed door.
  4702 | D:3      | Found a large runed door.
  4899 | D:3      | Noticed Kay's ghost (amateur DsMo)
  4983 | D:4      | Noticed a steam dragon
  5034 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  5364 | D:4      | Killed a steam dragon
  5364 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 11/36 MP: 1/13
  6280 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  6361 | D:5      | Found Yclixiust's Magic Scroll Emporium.
  6531 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 35 gold pieces
  6531 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of identify for 20 gold pieces
  6531 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of fog for 20 gold pieces
  6531 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of identify for 20 gold pieces
  6576 | D:5      | Found Oqezo's Antique Weapon Shop.
  6743 | D:5      | Found Vodghoow's Antique Weapon Emporium.
  6782 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  7281 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 9/14
  7555 | D:6      | Noticed Eustachio
  7562 | D:6      | Killed Eustachio
  7739 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  7775 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  7978 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  8266 | D:6      | Got a slimy hunting sling
  8267 | D:6      | Identified the +4 hunting sling of Qazlal's Condemnation
                  | {flame, rF+} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
  8636 | D:6      | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
  9040 | D:7      | Found Icso's Distillery.
  9048 | D:7      | Bought a potion of mutation for 96 gold pieces
  9089 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 24/45 MP: 1/15
  9404 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Fire Magic
  9594 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 10091 | D:7      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
 10574 | D:8      | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
 10770 | D:8      | Found Jetzumua's Jewellery Shop.
 10880 | D:8      | Reached * piety under Vehumet
 10880 | D:8      | Offered knowledge of Freeze by Vehumet.
 11274 | D:8      | Got an ebony spear
 11275 | D:8      | Identified the +7 spear "Meipyize" {holy, rElec Str+4
                  | Int-5} (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 11352 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 17/19
 12682 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 12799 | D:9      | Noticed Erolcha
 13042 | D:5      | Found Cagicik's Book Shop.
 13278 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
 13530 | D:9      | Found Leudgh's Antique Armour Boutique.
 13780 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13780 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13781 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13781 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13781 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13782 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13782 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13783 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 13915 | D:9      | Got a transparent robe
 13926 | D:9      | Identified the +1 robe of Lies {Regen+ Str+2 Dex-2} (You
                  | found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 14343 | D:9      | Noticed a shining eye
 14364 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14411 | D:10     | Offered knowledge of Searing Ray by Vehumet.
 14653 | D:10     | Reached ** piety under Vehumet
 14692 | D:9      | Noticed a sea snake
 14723 | D:9      | Noticed an anaconda
 14723 | D:9      | a sea snake changed into an anaconda
 14729 | D:9      | Noticed a satyr
 14729 | D:9      | an anaconda changed into a satyr
 14737 | D:9      | Noticed an ettin
 14737 | D:9      | a satyr changed into an ettin
 15251 | D:10     | Noticed Gastronok
 15317 | D:10     | Killed Gastronok
 15317 | D:10     | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
 15489 | D:10     | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
 15803 | D:10     | Noticed Maurice
 15806 | D:10     | Killed Maurice
 15806 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 39/54 MP: 6/23
 15808 | D:10     | Got a translucent turquoise ring
 16502 | D:10     | Noticed Erica
 16506 | D:10     | Killed Erica
 16715 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 16720 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 17044 | D:11     | Offered knowledge of Throw Frost by Vehumet.
 17516 | D:11     | Identified the ring "Xefiwaoc" {MR+ Str+4 Dex+4} (You found
                  | it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 17556 | D:11     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
 17577 | D:10     | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
 17581 | D:10     | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
 17586 | D:10     | Learned a level 4 spell: Cause Fear
 17655 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
 17751 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
 18003 | Lair:1   | Reached *** piety under Vehumet
 18291 | Lair:1   | Got a bloodstained leather armour
 18313 | Lair:1   | Identified the +3 leather armour "Dirrel" {*Slow +Inv rF+
                  | Dex+5} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 19158 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 19160 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 19160 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 19169 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 19187 | Lair:1   | Killed a death yak
 19187 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
 19590 | Lair:1   | Offered knowledge of Ignite Poison by Vehumet.
 19912 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 20153 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 20476 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
 20517 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Ignite Poison
 20592 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 42/59 MP: 20/27
 20819 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 20899 | Lair:2   | Killed a death yak
 20905 | Lair:2   | Noticed a death yak
 20909 | Lair:2   | Killed a death yak
 20909 | Lair:2   | Killed a death yak
 20909 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 21207 | Lair:2   | Reached **** piety under Vehumet
 21664 | Lair:2   | Killed a death yak
 21683 | Lair:2   | Killed a death yak
 21819 | Lair:2   | Offered knowledge of Iskenderun's Mystic Blast by Vehumet.
 22075 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 11 in Spellcasting
 22199 | Lair:3   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 22230 | Lair:3   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 22276 | Lair:3   | Noticed Fannar
 22279 | Lair:3   | Killed Fannar
 22279 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
 22607 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 23235 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 23877 | Lair:5   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 23932 | Lair:5   | Noticed Sonja
 23939 | Lair:5   | Killed Sonja
 24011 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 53/66 MP: 21/30
 24057 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 24638 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 12 in Spellcasting
 25010 | Lair:5   | Reached ***** piety under Vehumet
 25013 | Lair:5   | Offered knowledge of Force Lance by Vehumet.
 25607 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 25759 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes
 26196 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 26341 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 13 in Spellcasting
 26985 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 27026 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 74/78 MP: 24/33
 28504 | D:12     | Offered knowledge of Yara's Violent Unravelling by Vehumet.
 28924 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 28924 | D:12     | Found Pujap's Weapon Shop.
 28953 | D:12     | Noticed Frances
 28958 | D:12     | Killed Frances
 29226 | D:12     | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
 29315 | D:12     | Found Ydan's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 29649 | D:12     | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 30052 | D:12     | Found Pujap's Weapon Shop.
 30054 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 30437 | D:12     | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 30570 | D:12     | Found Ydan's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 30736 | D:12     | Found Pujap's Weapon Shop.
 30738 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 31009 | D:12     | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 31236 | D:12     | Found Ydan's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 31635 | D:13     | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 31807 | D:13     | Got a translucent ring mail
 31843 | D:13     | Identified the +5 ring mail of Zochel {Int+4} (You found it
                  | on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 31988 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 32059 | D:13     | Offered knowledge of Lightning Bolt by Vehumet.
 33023 | D:5      | Bought a scroll of fog for 20 gold pieces
 33096 | D:7      | Bought a potion of cancellation for 96 gold pieces
 33137 | D:8      | Bought a cursed ring of attention for 67 gold pieces
 33588 | D:14     | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 34277 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 34595 | D:15     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 84/84 MP: 26/35
 35140 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 35206 | Orc:1    | Offered knowledge of Spellforged Servitor by Vehumet.
 35598 | Orc:1    | Found Delaxtoh's Book Shoppe.
 35823 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 35827 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 1 in Staves
 35912 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 36243 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 36579 | Orc:2    | Found Apuc's Weapon Emporium.
 36580 | Orc:2    | Found Belel's Weapon Shoppe.
 36585 | Orc:2    | Found Ryluisi's Food Shop.
 36590 | Orc:2    | Found Kuaheun's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 36758 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 37161 | D:9      | Learned a level 6 spell: Darkness
 37169 | D:9      | Killed Erolcha
 37260 | D:9      | Identified 2 scrolls of acquirement
 37266 | D:9      | Got a twitching jade ring
 37268 | D:9      | Identified the ring "Qurrom" {rF+ Int+4} (You acquired it
                  | on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 37270 | D:9      | Got a bound jade amulet
 37272 | D:9      | Identified the amulet "Aqeuric" {Acrobat MR+ Str+3} (You
                  | acquired it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 37426 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 37426 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Louise
 37437 | Swamp:1  | Killed Louise
 37752 | Swamp:1  | Offered knowledge of Ozocubu's Refrigeration by Vehumet.
 38462 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Nikola
 38476 | Swamp:1  | Killed Nikola
 39350 | Swamp:2  | Reached skill level 5 in Staves
 39630 | Swamp:2  | You are sucked into a shaft!
 39649 | Swamp:2  | Reached XP level 16. HP: 21/93 MP: 17/36
 39655 | Swamp:2  | HP: 3/93 [something (19)]
 40950 | Swamp:3  | Noticed a thorn hunter
 41497 | Swamp:3  | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Fire by Vehumet.
 41745 | Swamp:3  | Killed a thorn hunter
 42643 | Swamp:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Swamp
 43946 | Swamp:4  | Noticed a thorn hunter
 43946 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 44072 | Swamp:4  | Killed a thorn hunter
 44176 | Swamp:4  | Noticed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 44206 | Swamp:4  | Killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 44514 | Swamp:4  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 101/101 MP: 22/37
 44608 | Swamp:4  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 44932 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
 44933 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 44935 | Snake:1  | Offered knowledge of Iron Shot by Vehumet.
 44937 | Snake:1  | Noticed Rupert
 44944 | Snake:1  | Killed Rupert
 44944 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
 45203 | Snake:1  | Got a scorched mace
 45204 | Snake:1  | Identified the +2 mace of Cemiecinir {protect, *Contam
                  | +Blink rElec rF+} (You found it on level 1 of the Snake
                  | Pit)
 45211 | Snake:1  | Found Ciedek's Jewellery Shop.
 45213 | Snake:1  | Found Gasa's Gadget Boutique.
 45215 | Snake:1  | Found Jifo's Antique Armour Shop.
 45247 | Snake:1  | Bought an uncursed ring of poison resistance for 300 gold
                  | pieces
 45253 | Snake:1  | Bought a silken robe for 148 gold pieces
 45253 | Snake:1  | Identified the +1 robe "Zaith" {rElec Dex+2} (You bought it
                  | in a shop on level 1 of the Snake Pit)
 45271 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 45682 | Snake:1  | Noticed Kirke
 45685 | Snake:1  | Killed Kirke
 46285 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 47019 | Snake:2  | Got a warped leather armour
 47020 | Snake:2  | Identified the +1 leather armour of Mutualism {Str+3 Int+3}
                  | (You found it on level 2 of the Snake Pit)
 47219 | Snake:2  | Noticed Vashnia
 47893 | Snake:1  | Upgraded the game from 0.22.1-1-ga44c0e5 to
                  | 0.22.1-2-g9c5b331
 47905 | Snake:1  | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
 47913 | Snake:1  | Learned a level 6 spell: Deflect Missiles
 48159 | D:15     | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 48362 | D:15     | Reached ****** piety under Vehumet
 48362 | D:15     | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 48529 | D:15     | Offered knowledge of Lehudib's Crystal Spear by Vehumet.
 48529 | D:15     | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet.
 48529 | D:15     | Offered knowledge of Ignition by Vehumet.
 48684 | D:15     | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
 48862 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 49233 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 49658 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 50317 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
 51014 | Vaults:1 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 108/108 MP: 36/38
 51983 | Vaults:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Charms
 53320 | Snake:3  | Noticed Roxanne
 53853 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 54401 | Elf:1    | Found a ruined gateway.
 55487 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 55497 | Vaults:2 | Learned a level 8 spell: Ignition
 56012 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Fire Magic
 56263 | Vaults:2 | Noticed Boris
 57273 | Elf:1    | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 57326 | Elf:1    | Reached XP level 19. HP: 62/112 MP: 19/40
 57516 | Elf:1    | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 57632 | Elf:1    | Identified Bagavvo Ydech's Incunabulum of Supportive
                  | Conjuration
 58068 | Snake:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit
 58364 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 1 in Earth Magic
 61105 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 10 in Staves
 61775 | Snake:4  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 62506 | Elf:2    | Found Mossialu's Antique Armour Boutique.
 62517 | Elf:2    | Reached skill level 16 in Spellcasting
 63011 | Elf:2    | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
 63386 | Elf:2    | Found a runed gate.
 63386 | Elf:2    | Found a runed gate.
 63390 | Elf:2    | Found a runed gate.
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64137 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 64253 | D:8      | Bought an uncursed ring of fire for 375 gold pieces
 64674 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 117/117 MP: 37/42
 65976 | Vaults:3 | Got a slimy glaive
 65982 | Vaults:3 | Identified the +3 glaive of Income {flame, rC+ rN+ Str+4
                  | Int+4} (You found it on level 3 of the Vaults)
 66901 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 17 in Spellcasting
 68310 | Vaults:4 | Found Werhag Rien's Armour Boutique.
 70095 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 106/123 MP: 8/44
 70104 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 18 in Spellcasting
 71236 | Vaults:2 | Killed Boris
 71941 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 72576 | D:15     | Learned a level 5 spell: Borgnjor's Vile Clutch
 72577 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 72703 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
 73022 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 73087 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell.
 73831 | Depths:1 | Got a bloodstained rapier {drain}
 73845 | Depths:1 | Identified the +4 rapier "Jiafas" {drain, rElec rPois
                  | Int+2} (You took it off a tengu conjurer on level 1 of the
                  | Depths)
 74296 | Depths:1 | Found Awkecet's Armour Boutique.
 74303 | Depths:1 | Bought a +1 pair of gloves of dexterity for 379 gold pieces
 74394 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 19 in Spellcasting
 74400 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Necromancy
 75252 | Depths:2 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 75870 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 130/130 MP: 22/47
 76427 | Depths:3 | Found Jublet's General Store.
 76433 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 76989 | Depths:3 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 76994 | Depths:3 | Killed a caustic shrike
 77054 | Depths:3 | Found Atylaf's General Store.
 78086 | Depths:3 | Noticed a golden dragon
 78181 | Depths:3 | Killed a golden dragon
 78469 | Depths:3 | Learned a level 6 spell: Freezing Cloud
 78736 | Depths:3 | Found Mog Tucw's Weapon Shoppe.
 78991 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic
 80194 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 80622 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 20 in Spellcasting
 80779 | Depths:4 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 136/136 MP: 30/49
 81656 | Depths:4 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 81811 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
 81815 | Depths:5 | Noticed Frederick
 81820 | Depths:5 | Killed Frederick
 81820 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
 82328 | Depths:5 | Found Bygod's Gadget Emporium.
 82328 | Depths:5 | Found Itsoulur's Weapon Shoppe.
 82329 | Depths:5 | Found Erumiewo's Jewellery Emporium.
 82333 | Depths:5 | Found Xoniged's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 82392 | Depths:5 | Noticed Xtahua
 82402 | Depths:5 | Killed Xtahua
 82669 | Depths:5 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 82671 | Depths:5 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 82672 | Depths:5 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 82954 | Depths:5 | Noticed Mennas
 83042 | Depths:3 | Bought a potion of resistance for 240 gold pieces
 83042 | Depths:3 | Bought a ration for 120 gold pieces
 83042 | Depths:3 | Bought a ration for 120 gold pieces
 83385 | D:3      | Killed Kay's ghost
 83629 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 83629 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 83629 | Orc:2    | Bought a ration for 70 gold pieces
 84359 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 84364 | Slime:1  | Gained mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [a shining eye]
 84365 | Slime:1  | Gained mutation: Your magical capacity is low. (-10% MP) [a
                  | shining eye]
 85557 | Orc:1    | Bought a Necronomicon for 1435 gold pieces
 86805 | Slime:3  | Reached skill level 10 in Necromancy
 88344 | Slime:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Pits of Slime
 88564 | Slime:5  | Gained mutation: You are weak. (Str -2) [a shining eye]
 88724 | Slime:5  | Noticed the Royal Jelly
 89436 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [potion of mutation]
 89436 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are weak. (Str -2) [potion of mutation]
 89436 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: You are resistant to electric shocks.
                  | (rElec) [potion of mutation]
 89436 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of
                  | mutation]
 89585 | Slime:5  | Reached XP level 24. HP: 134/142 MP: 26/44
 90137 | Slime:5  | Killed the Royal Jelly
 90348 | Slime:5  | Got a faintly glowing robe
 90384 | Slime:5  | Got a shimmering robe
 90419 | Slime:5  | Got a slimy rune of Zot
 90442 | Slime:5  | Got a shadowed robe
 90468 | Slime:5  | Identified the +2 robe of Midwinter {*Drain MR++ Int-3
                  | Dex+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)
 90478 | Slime:5  | Identified the +0 robe of Vaweaq {rCorr} (You found it on
                  | level 5 of the Pits of Slime)
 90480 | Slime:5  | Identified the cursed +1 robe of the Insatiable Demons
                  | {rPois MR+} (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)
 90521 | Slime:5  | Identified the Almanac of Conjuration
 90548 | Slime:5  | Got an iridescent dagger
 90549 | Slime:5  | Identified the cursed +1 dagger of Vodka {protect, rElec
                  | rN+ Int-4} (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)
 90865 | Slime:5  | Got a pitted hand axe
 90866 | Slime:5  | Identified the +5 hand axe of the Fray {chop, *Drain Str+5
                  | Dex+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Pits of Slime)
 91205 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
 91456 | Elf:3    | Reached skill level 15 in Necromancy
 91677 | Elf:3    | Found Folum's General Store.
 91685 | Elf:3    | Bought a ration for 90 gold pieces
 91685 | Elf:3    | Bought a ration for 90 gold pieces
 92717 | Elf:3    | Learned a level 9 spell: Fire Storm
 92753 | Elf:3    | Got a steaming dagger
 92754 | Elf:3    | Identified the +4 dagger of Janipit {freeze, Str+5} (You
                  | found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 92846 | Elf:3    | Identified Sif Muna's Almanac of Arcane Weapons and
                  | Enhancements
 93171 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 8 spell: Necromutation
 93731 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 93732 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
 93732 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
 93947 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 93952 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 94153 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 94238 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 147/147 MP: 33/44
 94467 | Vaults:5 | Got a steaming ivory ring
 94790 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 94792 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 95158 | Vaults:5 | Found Otojuivu's Distillery.
 95158 | Vaults:5 | Found Radwaw's Distillery.
 95393 | Vaults:5 | Bought a potion of brilliance for 56 gold pieces
 95393 | Vaults:5 | Bought a potion of haste for 140 gold pieces
 95393 | Vaults:5 | Bought a potion of magic for 112 gold pieces
 95393 | Vaults:5 | Bought a potion of brilliance for 56 gold pieces
 95393 | Vaults:5 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 70 gold pieces
 95616 | Vaults:5 | Identified Sif Muna's Guide on Frigorific Attacks
 95623 | Vaults:5 | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 95629 | Vaults:5 | Identified the ring "Riasaew" {MR+ AC+5 Int+10} (You took
                  | it off a yaktaur captain on level 5 of the Vaults)
 95838 | Vaults:5 | Got a brightly glowing tin amulet
 95839 | Vaults:5 | Identified the amulet of Etierphah {Inacc *Contam rC++ rN+
                  | SInv} (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)
 96066 | Vaults:5 | Found the +15 Maxwell's patent armour {-Cast -Tele rElec
                  | MR+ rCorr}
 96077 | Vaults:5 | Identified the Disquisition on Bewitching Stones
 96973 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 96993 | Vaults:5 | Found Ruicheleva's Food Boutique.
 97417 | Snake:3  | Killed Roxanne
 97423 | Snake:3  | Identified Roxanne's Handbook of Transformation (You took
                  | it off Roxanne on level 3 of the Snake Pit)
 97704 | Snake:2  | Killed Vashnia
 98368 | Crypt:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Crypt
 98983 | Crypt:1  | Reached skill level 21 in Spellcasting
100400 | Crypt:2  | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
100402 | Crypt:2  | Noticed an ancient lich
100404 | Crypt:2  | Killed an ancient lich
100410 | Crypt:2  | Reached XP level 26. HP: 152/152 MP: 7/45
102518 | Crypt:3  | Entered Level 3 of the Crypt
102518 | Crypt:3  | Found a staircase to the Tomb.
103032 | Crypt:3  | Reached skill level 22 in Spellcasting
104027 | Crypt:3  | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
104153 | Crypt:3  | Learned a level 8 spell: Controlled Blink
104569 | Crypt:3  | Noticed an ancient lich
104571 | Crypt:3  | Killed an ancient lich
104572 | Crypt:3  | Noticed an ancient lich
104575 | Crypt:3  | Killed an ancient lich
104712 | Crypt:3  | Got a serpentine wooden ring
104729 | Crypt:3  | Identified the ring "Mawkoll" {rElec rPois Int+2 SInv} (You
                  | found it on level 3 of the Crypt)
105677 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 23 in Spellcasting
106115 | Depths:5 | Killed Mennas
106211 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
106250 | Zot:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot
106879 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 15 in Evocations
108207 | Zot:2    | Reached XP level 27. HP: 158/158 MP: 47/47
108562 | Zot:2    | Noticed an orb of fire
108566 | Zot:2    | Killed an orb of fire
108566 | Zot:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
108745 | Zot:2    | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Butterflies
108822 | Zot:3    | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
110896 | Depths:4 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss.
110903 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
111494 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
111502 | Abyss:1  | Reached skill level 24 in Spellcasting
111821 | Abyss:2  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
112611 | Depths:4 | Escaped the Abyss
112674 | Depths:4 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss.
112679 | Abyss:1  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
113308 | Abyss:1  | Reached skill level 5 in Summonings
113911 | Depths:4 | Escaped the Abyss

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Conjurations   |     2     3  4  5  7  9 10 12          13                14 15 16       17       | 17.0
Fire Magic     |     4        5  6  7  9 11 12 13          14       16 17 18                      | 18.8
Shields        |        1                       3  4                                              |  4.0
Spellcasting   |                          4  7  9 11 13 14          15 16 17 19 20       21 23 24 | 24.2
Hexes          |                                5  8 11 12                                        | 12.0
Dodging        |                                5  8 10 12 13 15          16    17 18          19 | 19.4
Poison Magic   |                                   2  3                                           |  3.0
Fighting       |                                   2  5  6  8  9 10          11 12             13 | 13.1
Evocations     |                                         2  7  9 10       11    13 14       15 16 | 16.2
Staves         |                                            5  8  9    10 12                      | 12.0
Necromancy     |                                                  4           6  8 13 17          | 17.4
Charms         |                                                  8 11                            | 11.0
Air Magic      |                                                  5  8                            |  8.0
Stealth        |                                                     5     8                 9 11 | 11.9
Earth Magic    |                                                        5  6                      |  6.9
Translocations |                                                                 5  8    10 14    | 14.0
Ice Magic      |                                                                 3  6             |  6.0
Transmutations |                                                                      10 13       | 13.0
Summonings     |                                                                                5 |  5.0

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |     1 |    12 |    29 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    42
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |   156 |   121 |    95 |    22 |    80 ||   474
 Fire: Hunting sling     |       |       |    79 |   147 |       |       |       |       |       ||   226
       Blowgun           |       |       |       |    17 |       |       |       |       |       ||    17
Throw: Stone             |    13 |    16 |     2 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    31
 Cast: Flame Tongue      |    68 |    39 |    12 |    38 |     6 |       |     2 |       |       ||   165
       Magic Dart        |       |    89 |   143 |   187 |   193 |    55 |    99 |     7 |    10 ||   783
       Sticky Flame      |       |     9 |    35 |   103 |   115 |    87 |    69 |    13 |     9 ||   440
       Fireball          |       |       |     7 |    82 |   330 |   449 |   426 |   412 |   207 ||  1913
       Cause Fear        |       |       |       |     4 |    11 |     6 |       |     2 |     1 ||    24
       Ignite Poison     |       |       |       |    16 |    24 |       |       |       |       ||    40
       Mephitic Cloud    |       |       |       |    12 |    35 |       |       |       |       ||    47
       Darkness          |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |     1 |       |       ||     5
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |       |    57 |   122 |    80 |   175 ||   434
       Deflect Missiles  |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     6 |     1 |     1 ||    11
       Ignition          |       |       |       |       |       |    14 |    38 |    35 |       ||    87
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |    18 |     2 ||    22
       Borgnjor's Vile C |       |       |       |       |       |       |    36 |    34 |   119 ||   189
       Freezing Cloud    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    23 |       ||    23
       Fire Storm        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     6 |   114 ||   120
       Necromutation     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |   233 ||   235
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
       Summon Butterflie |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Abil: Stop Flying       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |       |     2 |     2 ||     6
       Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     6
       End Transformatio |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     9 |    13 |    30 |     4 |    12 |     8 ||    76
       Crystal ball of e |       |       |       |       |       |    25 |    18 |    19 |     5 ||    67
       Box of beasts     |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
  Use: Potion            |     3 |     1 |       |     3 |     3 |    10 |     3 |    18 |     3 ||    44
       Scroll            |       |     6 |     8 |    18 |    15 |    14 |     9 |    22 |    15 ||   107
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     3 |     6 |    12 |    29 |    14 |    27 |     8 |       ||   101
       Ration            |       |     3 |     6 |    14 |    11 |    17 |    15 |    16 |     2 ||    84
Armor: Robe              |       |     7 |       |    29 |    87 |    70 |    30 |    24 |    20 ||   267
       Steam dragon scal |       |       |    41 |    42 |       |       |       |       |       ||    83
Dodge: Dodged            |    13 |    32 |    53 |   114 |   327 |   391 |   180 |   136 |   143 ||  1389
       Deflected         |       |       |       |       |       |    13 |    54 |    25 |    22 ||   114
Block: Buckler           |       |       |       |     3 |   119 |   123 |    65 |    34 |    51 ||   395
       Reflection        |       |       |       |       |       |    14 |    14 |     8 |     4 ||    40

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8529

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 18:37

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Yes, you are doing it wrong by mostly refusing to eat chunks. You are not running out of rations because of spell hunger (in the dump you posted all your spells are already hungerless when untransformed), you are running out of rations because you do not eat chunks. For comparison, here is what the chunk/ration eating counts look like for the last few "pure conjurers" I won:
  Code:
  Eat: Chunk             |     5 |     5 |    45 |    28 |    40 |    48 |    69 |    17 |    41 ||   298
       Ration            |       |     1 |       |     2 |     3 |    11 |     3 |     6 |     4 ||    30

  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |    10 |    13 |    29 |    45 |    30 |    46 |    13 |    41 ||   228
       Ration            |       |       |       |     4 |     2 |     1 |       |     3 |     6 ||    16

  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |    10 |    23 |    43 |    38 |    46 |    17 |     3 |    37 ||   219
       Ration            |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     4 |     1 |     4 |    13 ||    24

  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |    21 |    19 |    20 |    48 |    38 |    31 |    14 |    35 ||   228
       Ration            |       |       |       |       |     9 |     3 |       |     7 |     7 ||    26
This is about a 10 : 1 ratio of chunks to rations. Your dump has about a 1.2 : 1 ratio of chunks to rations. I am sure you can do better.
delarado wrote:Since clarity is not in the game any more, I feel like a potential unavoidable confusion is very extreme.
You can avoid being confused by CBOE by not evoking CBOE.

=== end advice, begin design ===

I am not sure what purpose Necromutation is supposed to fill. It does a lot of things but the net effect is basically just turning you into a mummy. I mean think about that for a bit, that's a pretty stupid design. Imagine a spell that turns you into a centaur or a merfolk or a vine stalker. And as far as game balance goes, it basically does three things:
1. Lets you clear tomb ziggurat levels without using ddoor
2. Lets you scum Pan respawns for xp
3. Acts as a newbie trap akin to crown of eternal torment, because it sucks at pretty much everything else
I'm going to go ahead and submit that 2. and 3. are unambiguously bad for the game, and 1. just means tomb ziggurat levels are dumb, not that necromutation is good for the game. The worst part is that if I had to guess, I think facilitating scumming was probably an intended part of the spell!

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Fingolfin

Blades Runner

Posts: 566

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 19:49

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Thats interesting about the chunks, thanks for the advice. I do always try to eat chunks, but If I am hungry or worse and there are no chunks around, I tend to eat a ration just in case I starve myself in the next fight I get into.

I'd still like to see some changes that allow you to get out of confused status while in Necromutation, or at least have it preventable by MR when the effect comes from CBOE.

If nobody thinks thats a worthwhile change (Or at least its not worth discussing) then thats fine :)

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1695

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 19:50

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

delarado wrote:Potion of magic - Doesn't work with necromutation. Generally very rare.
Potion of ambrosia - Doesn't work with necromutation. Not something you can use in a fight.
Staff of Wucad Mu - I've found one; Ever.
Sublimination of blood - doesn't work with necromutation
Half the gods...I suppose, but is very limited.


If insufficient mana is a balance problem, devs can increase base mp regen rate and/or increase max mp. This could be for all characters or just high level characters. All these formulas are tweakable.

If there had never been a CBOE, and someone here in December 2018 suggested adding the mess that is CBOE to 0.23, it would be rightfully rejected. So why is it still here?

(I know this argument could apply to other crawl features, like Berserker background or Fedhas, but those at least have value because they are iconic parts of crawl. CBOE is just a weird item that is irrelevant to almost all characters and annoying to use.)

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 184

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 20:28

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

+1 to duvessa's advice, and I'll add that I make a point to chop up at least one corpse at the end of every fight that leaves one, regardless of my nutrition level, and that I generally don't eat a ration until I'm at least nearly starving, if not starving, now that it only takes 1 turn to eat a ration.

Using Necromutation is better than playing a mummy, for a lot of reasons, but perhaps most notably, it turns you into a mummified version of your current species, complete with its auxiliary attacks and other innate mutations. How else would a felid gain access to the drain brand?

I do think that Necromutation and Transmutations in general are rather awkward, and the majority of characters I play won't touch them, but every so often I get an itch for some wacky gameplay, and Transmutations scratch that itch (not that I've made enough attempts to actually get a transmuter to the point where it can make practical use of the highest-level spells, but some of that may have to do with my stubborn insistence on playing octopodes and not worshiping chei and/or my prioritization of unarmed combat skill over competency in magic).

I do feel that dedicated casters could use a bit more MP to work with, especially from the mid-game onward. I also know that there are players who refuse to invest in more than one of the MP-granting skills on any given character. I think we could kill 2 birds with one stone by either making the MP gains from those skills stack or having Invocations and Evocations provide no MP while increasing base MP growth and/or MP regen rates for all characters (or at least for characters with high INT). Also, Sublimation of Blood is in a rather awful state right now... at low to medium spellpower, you're lucky to even get back your 2 MP casting cost, and the HP cost is just too high to be practical for most characters.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 11:03

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Nekoatl wrote:+1 to duvessa's advice, and I'll add that I make a point to chop up at least one corpse at the end of every fight that leaves one, regardless of my nutrition level, and that I generally don't eat a ration until I'm at least nearly starving, if not starving, now that it only takes 1 turn to eat a ration.

Using Necromutation is better than playing a mummy, for a lot of reasons, but perhaps most notably, it turns you into a mummified version of your current species, complete with its auxiliary attacks and other innate mutations. How else would a felid gain access to the drain brand?

I do think that Necromutation and Transmutations in general are rather awkward, and the majority of characters I play won't touch them, but every so often I get an itch for some wacky gameplay, and Transmutations scratch that itch (not that I've made enough attempts to actually get a transmuter to the point where it can make practical use of the highest-level spells, but some of that may have to do with my stubborn insistence on playing octopodes and not worshiping chei and/or my prioritization of unarmed combat skill over competency in magic).

I do feel that dedicated casters could use a bit more MP to work with, especially from the mid-game onward. I also know that there are players who refuse to invest in more than one of the MP-granting skills on any given character. I think we could kill 2 birds with one stone by either making the MP gains from those skills stack or having Invocations and Evocations provide no MP while increasing base MP growth and/or MP regen rates for all characters (or at least for characters with high INT). Also, Sublimation of Blood is in a rather awful state right now... at low to medium spellpower, you're lucky to even get back your 2 MP casting cost, and the HP cost is just too high to be practical for most characters.


Fair enough about CBOE. If you don't like it, fine. I actually quite like it and think its an interesting item that is balanced to use and has good application for the characters I like to play.

Re:the chunks thing, you cannot eat unless you are hungry. I'd always find that after a fight I'd chop corpses, but by the time I was hungry again they'd rotted. Anyway, that's not the point of this thread.

I think we all agree on certain points to some extent here, so lets try and get back to the thread track / Topic.

1)Pure casters have a limited "attack pool" that is a limitation that other characters do not have. For example, an XL27 blaster conjurer could kill probably 5-7 yaks - but then no more and would have to run away with no MP. An XL 20 melee character could tab yaks endlessly. It seems people tend to agree on this point. My solution to his used to be CBOE. This still works, but requires SIGNIFICANT skill investment and its not without random drawbacks. I'm not suggesting we change this, only that we acknowledge it. If CBOE worked as it is now with zero possible drawbacks then it would be severely overpowered.
2) Caster types have to use more food than melee types just to attack, whether it comes from chunks or rations. Several branches offer no edible chunks at all. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. Couple this with the extra food usage from waiting around for MP to regen and the problem is compounded.
3) Necromutation gives you a way to negate this food problem. However, since the removal of clarity, it creates unavoidable drawbacks that will get you killed for trying to solve the food problem that is basically unavoidable.

Options as I see it:

1)Increase the spawn rate of staff of Wucad Mu heavily
2)Make CBOE confusion effect check MR (Easiest in my opinion, its about the only thing I know of that doesn't check MR for confusion effect)
3)Remove CBOE confusion effect completely
4)Remove CBOE completely and increase mana regen rate...possibly inline with INT or spellcasting? (would require a LOT of testing and tweaking in my opinion, probably the most difficult option to implement)
5)Allow characters in necromutation state to quaff potions, but give each positive effect a negative one as well. E.g potion of curing removes negative status effects, but removes health (Since you are dead) Potion of ambrosia increases mana regen, but drains health steadily. Basically anything that increases health for an alive character decreases it for a dead one.

Any other suggestions? What do people think of the above ones? Do people think we need to do anything at all? I think at the moment, making it impossible to get out of confused state if you are In necromutation is broken.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 14:25

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

I like CBoE in theory, but I never end up using it in practice. The idea of gambling on MP recovery is appealing, especially when average results become more favorable with increased skill investment, but the confusion and INT damage are much bigger deterrents now that amulets of clarity and rings of sustain attributes have been removed. I'd support a rework of the drawbacks, and failing that, I wouldn't mind if it were removed entirely.

1) All forms of attack have some kind of limiter. Ammo, piety, hunger, MP, HP, rations.... It's easy for casters to burn through their entire supply of MP before killing all of the monsters trying to kill them, but efficient use of spells can usually see them clearing medium-sized fights with MP to spare, or even a net positive for Vehumet worshippers with max piety. Corollary: some fights can't be cleared without running out of MP, even with efficient spell use, necessitating strategic retreat and/or MP recovery options, of which CBoE is powerful enough to need drawbacks, yes, but there are other functional options that are safer.

2) No, caster types don't have to use any food to attack. It's possible to complete the game with a dedicated spellcaster without ever spending a single point of nutrition on spell hunger, just by training Spellcasting and boosting INT. But, this would be unnecessarily awkward, as there's plenty of food in the early and mid-game to allow for prioritizing other skills. Every chunk or edible corpse that rots could have been used to offset spell hunger. Also, some melee attackers can burn through food very quickly (*cough* berserkers *cough*).

3) Sure, Necromutation has drawbacks, but drawbacks are part of the Transmutation school's identity. Food problems are very much avoidable, however, even without being undead.

----

1) Staves of energy work just as well and are not artifacts.
2) Reasonable.
3) Better.
4) These changes don't need to be tied together.
5) Can't say I approve of this one; IMO Necromutation offers enough value that losing access to potions is a fair price to pay, and an interesting one at that. I'd rather see them given clarity than the ability to quaff potions.

I don't think anything *needs* to be done, but there's definitely room for improvement in terms of caster MP management, as discussed previously in the thread. I suggest you give the reworked Sif Muna a try, if you haven't had a chance to since returning to the game. Now that I'm used to them, I much prefer her new MP management abilities to her old-style channeling, and you may find the CBoE less necessary once you get comfortable with them.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:24

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

1) Staves of energy work just as well and are not artifacts.


Staffs of energy get you 1-3MP per turn. CBOE gets you anything from 6-17.5 depending on skill.

The thing that really made me realise this problem is the Abyss.... And it will probably be the same in hells.

You get a constant stream of mid level monsters that mean MP regain from killing doesn't really work as they tend to come one by one or two at a time from different directions, and you spend more MP than you can regain or regenerate by other means.

Even when you just wait around to regain MP, monsters appear regularly enough to keep you constantly trying to manage your MP. The type of monsters are too much for a pure caster to take in melee, but the type of thing a relatively proficient melee based character can tab through as much as they want to without much fear at all.

Couple this with an almost complete lack of chunks in the abyss and it basically makes it very, very difficult. Even Abyss:1 gets tetchy for the character I posted above, just because you can't keep enough MP to keep yourself safe.

I don't know how it works around game design discussion, but I'd like to see changes. I don't think my own gameplay style rationale for it is as important for this decision as community agreement that changes are needed, so I'm going to stop talking about my experience now. Trying the new Sif Muna is interesting, and I will give it a go, but it still doesn't resolve my main concern, and the reason for the OP:

  Code:
Necromutation confusion is impossible to get out of, and there is a useful item in the game that will most certainly confuse you at some point with absolutely no way for you to mitigate, or recover from it, aside from just not using necromutation, or the item at all.  Being in Necromutation with max MR basically means you will never get confused. Except if you want to use this item, in which case, there is nothing you can do about it.


DCSS is supposed to be about interesting choices, and IMO, removing certain items from the game, that make another useful item give you a possible death sentence with absolutely nothing you can do about it is not an interesting choice. I wouldn't like to see CBOE removed completely, but if that's the way it goes, then fine. As it is now though, its just incompatible with what I feel are some pretty standard gameplay strategies because of other design choices that have been made, and I feel like something should at least be seriously considered in order to remedy that.

Fingolfin wrote:I love how every claim you make is more wrong than the previous one.


And I love how you come to a game design discussion thread just to troll.

I may not be very good at this game; but I haven't played in a long time. I'm still adjusting to the multitude of changes. I'm just giving you my honest appraisal of the way I feel things are now. If I am categorically wrong and nobody agrees with me, then that's absolutely fine and I will bow out happily. But I don't think it's too much to ask that it be discussed, rather than simply ridiculing me for being wrong about things which can be subjective and very situational. But thanks for your input nevertheless!
Last edited by delarado on Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:27

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

One other option, as someone earlier mentioned, is allowing end transformation if you are confused?

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:55

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Staff of energy is awful to use: you swap from your staff of conjuration and then press a key dozen of times checking screen for new monsters every turn. People were forced to write a lua script to make it not so painful.
CBOE is awful to use, you always have to check MP and Int after every evocation (are my MPs drained, can I still cast high level spells).
Regen spell is awful to use, you cast it every time when you are wounded and even more if you have Sublimation of Blood.
Sublimation of Blood is awful to use as it punishes for having too high spell power and is too random (I lost 60% HP as DE and almost died because of it, it was something like HP 100, MP 0 and then HP 40, MP 40).

Can we remove all means to regen HP/MP so gods remain gods and not just a weak replacement for annoying things? As a bonus it will make Necromutation less useful as spell hunger does not matter much when you are low on MP anyway.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 16:05

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Staff of energy is awful to use: you swap from your staff of conjuration and then press a key dozen of times checking screen for new monsters every turn. People were forced to write a lua script to make it not so painful.
CBOE is awful to use, you always have to check MP and Int after every evocation (are my MPs drained, can I still cast high level spells).
Regen spell is awful to use, you cast it every time when you are wounded and even more if you have Sublimation of Blood.
Sublimation of Blood is awful to use as it punishes for having too high spell power and is too random (I lost 60% HP as DE and almost died because of it, it was something like HP 100, MP 0 and then HP 40, MP 40).

Can we remove all means to regen HP/MP so gods remain gods and not just a weak replacement for annoying things? As a bonus it will make Necromutation less useful as spell hunger does not matter much when you are low on MP anyway.


1. Staffs - Agree completely. I love a fire elementalist. I wouldn't like to be forced to swap staffs all the time.
2. I Wouldn't say the things you mention make it awful to use. Yes it has potential drawbacks, but if it didn't, then there would be no point in having an MP Bar. You might as well just make it infinite. I do appreciate the drawbacks can be catastrophic though - but its a powerful item. I feel like each drawback is appropriate considering how powerful the item is (Except for the confusion effect, and I realise that I only think that because I like to use necromutation a lot) If you get stat loss, you can just run away until it wears off. If you get 0mp, you can run. If you are confused, you are in trouble now that clarity isn't a thing.
3. Agreed
4. I don't use it precisely for this reason.

Removing all HP/MP regen methods... that's a large change. Certainly outside of the scope of what I was suggesting.

I guess it seems like there isn't much of an appetite to rework necromutation or CBOE in any way to make them more synergistic... or rather, less potentially and uncontrollably game ending. But thanks for the discussion!

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:42

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

It's hard to give good feedback your proposals when it's pretty clear you're doing something way below optimal. With claims like "an XL27 blaster conjurer could kill probably 5-7 yaks" — like, I don't know what to do with that, other than to say "every high-level conjurer should be able to kill yaks in a much more MP-efficient way." I also don't know what you're doing to get near starving after every fight when you have a ton of int and spellcasting. Are your fights taking a super long time? Are you casting Firestorm and then fighting the whole level at once? Are you incurring a lot of hunger some other way? But those are really discussions for the Advice forum.

I'm very much on board with the idea that lichform, confusion and the CBOE could all use some rework. But before proposing specific changes to the way parts of Crawl work, you need to be well-versed on how those parts work for your proposals to generate useful feedback.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:54

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

njvack wrote:It's hard to give good feedback your proposals when it's pretty clear you're doing something way below optimal. With claims like "an XL27 blaster conjurer could kill probably 5-7 yaks" — like, I don't know what to do with that, other than to say "every high-level conjurer should be able to kill yaks in a much more MP-efficient way." I also don't know what you're doing to get near starving after every fight when you have a ton of int and spellcasting. Are your fights taking a super long time? Are you casting Firestorm and then fighting the whole level at once? Are you incurring a lot of hunger some other way? But those are really discussions for the Advice forum.

I'm very much on board with the idea that lichform, confusion and the CBOE could all use some rework. But before proposing specific changes to the way parts of Crawl work, you need to be well-versed on how those parts work for your proposals to generate useful feedback.


Thank you for the feedback. You are right, some of this does belong in the advice forum - This is why I wanted to try and stay away from my gameplay habits as it seemed clear that people thought a rework could be due, but the thread was getting off track with how I was doing things wrong in the game rather than the fact the people kind of agreed a rework could be good. I'm not a perfect player, I know that - but that shouldn't detract from the idea at discussion.

An XL27 conjurer can easily kill a lot more Yaks than that of course, but its situational. I cleared the first "part" of Vaults:5 in two turns/spells recently with the same character I posted a dump of and ended up with full MP after because of Vehumet refund. The problem I suffer from is when you get a constant stream of enemies 1 by 1. That same character that cleared V:5 in two spells starts to struggle if 5-7 yaks show up one by one, you iron shot one to death and another shows up right after you just killed the previous one. You end up with low MP very quickly. If they are bunched up - fireballs work a treat. But they attract attention. Otherwise, I can have problems in certain situations that can necessitate running away because you run out of MP. Melee types wouldn't have this issue with a constant stream of medium difficulty enemies.

There is of course potions of magic, but the equal analogy to this for a melee type is potions of curing / healing, which are MUCH more plentiful than potions of magic.

Getting near starving to be fair was when firestorm had a high hunger cost. Obviously this isn't so much of a problem any more - but I still stand by my claim that pure casters generally need more food than melee types. Its still irrelevant to this discussion though, and I'd like to stay on topic with my original proposal / problem...

Does crawl need a way for lich form characters to exit the confusion status? Or allow them to mitigate / eliminate the possiblity of CBOE causing it?

If so, what ways could we change it?
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 18:45

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

delarado wrote:Does crawl need a way for lich form characters to exit the confusion status? Or allow them to mitigate / eliminate the possiblity of CBOE causing it?

It really doesn't, as lichform is already not a form people should be using very often, and likewise, the crystal ball is only a halfway decent item for a small sliver of characters in certain circumstances. And if you really really want to be a crystal-gazing lich, you can always follow Ash to mitigate the possibility of confusion.

I mean yes, I think it would be fine if liches could quaff but the dev team has probably heard that feedback already.

If you *really* want a way to get out of confusion, it looks like you can still unwield a distortion item to banish yourself. But this is Crawl's way of saying "you're doing something wrong, don't be in this situation."
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 19:51

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Your current character can kill a hundred yaks without using a single mana, just hitting them with the staff of fire. So I guess we are talking about a different character (an imaginary "pure caster") or something tougher than yaks.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 23:56

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

delarado wrote:That same character that cleared V:5 in two spells starts to struggle if 5-7 yaks show up one by one, you iron shot one to death and another shows up right after you just killed the previous one. You end up with low MP very quickly.
You spend 6+ MP to kill a yak, you end up with low MP very quickly. Don't assume that anyone else does.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 21:12

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

Every chunk or edible corpse that rots could have been used to offset spell hunger.


I'd like to point out that this isn't really true for most of the game unless you spam spells at nothing. Chunks are actually pretty plentiful (I've had dungeon fights where I casually butchered all and got 30+), so only stuff like getting OOD in late lair and spamming in orc as non-mummy/no staff of energy will tend to seriously wear out food supply. Or that one challenge game where I wound up having to rely on Ely healing as a deep dwarf and burned two scrolls of acquirement on food (won that though, and it was under intentionally suboptimal choices made). Auto butcher in the rc file helps a ton for making this less tedious.

Mana is a bit less obvious. There is a big difference between spells when it comes to how fast they kill, how mana efficient they are, and situations where they're viable. Big difference trying to spam IMB as a conjurer vs using battlesphere + tracer spell, especially vs single targets. Searing ray is slower but more mana efficient. That continues up into higher tier magic. Ice clouds are way more efficient than iron shots vs crowds of enemies. Lightning spire double zaps are ridiculous value, especially since you can often rig it to double-zap more than one enemy per attack if you can tank a little bit. OTR can get pretty crazy in spider, etc.

I'm not sure what should be done about lich form, if anything. Rather than a hunger controller it seems best suited to blocking torment, as very few things are viable counters to it otherwise other than long range, high-damage and running a lot (with scrolls of fog/silence being other options in areas like tomb). Confuse in this context doesn't bother me, but I agree the lack of items seems to remove tough choices rather than add them on the whole.

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Post Thursday, 13th December 2018, 16:40

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

It's true in theory, but not so much in practice... particularly when you consider that not every background even starts with spells. The degree to which Spellcraft is trained can have a huge impact on the hunger costs of spells, and investing skill xp into magic schools instead of Spellcraft can get a spammable high-level spell online relatively quickly if spell hunger is not a concern. Yes, availability of corpses varies, but so can nutrition lost to spell hunger, because players can choose how much to rely on their higher-level spells.

I think there's a tendency for newer players to overestimate the impact of spell hunger and the importance of stockpiling rations, to the point where they'll prioritize eliminating spell hunger entirely over increasing spell power, leading to weaker characters that burn through MP less efficiently. Thinking of rotting monster meat as a wasted resource is a useful tool for overcoming that tendency.

I agree that MP usage and availability both vary quite a lot, which makes balancing them difficult, and that's even before differences in the scale of battles are considered. Also, Invocations and Evocations provide MP growth, but don't necessarily increase MP usage at all. The main problem with MP supplies for spellcasters, IMO, is the case where they don't find spells that enable them to deal with enemies efficiently by midgame, and are forced into a tedious pattern of luring as few monsters as possible, burning through MP in the hopes that they die before it's all gone, and resting to full. It's primarily because of this (not entirely uncommon) scenario that I think spellcasters could use a bit of an MP boost to improve the average player experience regarding such characters. Even spell-gifting gods don't entirely mitigate this problem, as the increasing size of the pantheon means that altars tend to appear later on average, and it takes some piety gain to get the gifts flowing, which comes slower if players have to spend an excessive number of turns waiting for MP to recover.
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Post Friday, 14th December 2018, 15:47

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

TheMeInTeam wrote:I'm not sure what should be done about lich form, if anything. Rather than a hunger controller it seems best suited to blocking torment, as very few things are viable counters to it otherwise other than long range, high-damage and running a lot (with scrolls of fog/silence being other options in areas like tomb). Confuse in this context doesn't bother me, but I agree the lack of items seems to remove tough choices rather than add them on the whole.

Torment is intended to be a serious threat. I'm not sure a spell that turns it off is actually a good thing. But you're right, hungerless casting is trivial in comparison to torment immunity.

There are a bunch of ways to deal with torment; ask in Advice if you're looking for them.
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Post Friday, 14th December 2018, 16:49

Re: Necromutation, Curing & Confusion

I think there's a tendency for newer players to overestimate the impact of spell hunger and the importance of stockpiling rations, to the point where they'll prioritize eliminating spell hunger entirely over increasing spell power, leading to weaker characters that burn through MP less efficiently. Thinking of rotting monster meat as a wasted resource is a useful tool for overcoming that tendency.


Agreed, though 6:1 or even 10:1 consumption rate will still leave a lot of chunks to ultimately rot. Either way hunger shouldn't be an issue unless a player is doing some kind of weird variant play, as opposed to just trying to win a game of crawl.

Torment is intended to be a serious threat. I'm not sure a spell that turns it off is actually a good thing. But you're right, hungerless casting is trivial in comparison to torment immunity.

There are a bunch of ways to deal with torment; ask in Advice if you're looking for them.


Necromutation offers very little else otherwise. I've not done a ton of extended, though I've run up upon plenty of curse toes, flying skulls, and some of the demonic tormentors in depths. Trying to get such a high level spell going for these rather than controlling line of sight or doing high DPS at range wouldn't make much sense. In areas like tomb where lich form is most attractive to block torment you expose yourself to dispel undead, so I doubt this particular means to turn off torment is unhealthy. Killing the enemy that can use it also turns it off and is often the better choice...even so this is the one aspect of necromutation that gives it utility. It's not a good spell generally compared to many others, so I'm not seeing much use in making it worse.

Anyway if *hunger* is the issue per the OP's description the staff of energy is the obvious winner, because you can skip hunger cost issues entirely, avoid the XP investment into necromutation, still use CBOE if necessary, and quaff curing to clear confusion. Maybe OP isn't aware that wielding a staff of energy removes hunger cost, and thus his stated motivation for even bothering with lich form? Sure, spells are slightly weaker w/o booster staff but high end spells will still eviscerate everything and you can then cast them willy-nilly wrt to hunger, just need to manage mana.

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