The Tavern

A regular character trains one skill at a time. A gnoll trains 31. This means that manuals take 31 times as long to use up. This means that any manual you find on a gnoll will be sitting in your inventory the whole game, taking up a slot. But you don't want to drop it since it's still giving you an advantage.

To make gnolls use manuals at the same rate as other species, you'd change the aptitude bonus from +4 to +124. Unfortunately, this has one problem: even a double-digit bonus won't fit on the skill screen in console, let alone a triple-digit one.

So I see the following options:
- Simply make manuals do nothing for gnolls. Say they're functionally illiterate or whatever. This seems kind of mean but it does solve the problem.
- Increase the aptitude bonus to +124 for gnolls so that the manual gets used as quickly as it does on other races, and rearrange the skill screen so that there's room for "+124". You could also go with +99 which is one character shorter but would still probably be good enough.
- Goldify manuals so that they don't take up an inventory slot. This has the problem that gnolls may prefer to avoid a manual to a useless skill in order to manipulate acquirements. So either the skill dependence of acquirement needs to be removed, or gnolls need to still have a way to toggle a manual on and off (which is kind of ridiculous).

Any others I've missed?

Third option is independently good for all species so I favor combining that with the first option.

If implementing the third is too hard for now, I also support the first option. It does not look too mean to me, when was the last time a manual actually mattered in a game? I personally do not remember any such game in amongst my games.

The status quo is better than option 1.

On reflection: I'm stupid. Changing the aptitude bonus wouldn't affect the speed at which the manual gets used, so it's pointless. So forget about option 2. (Even if it did, the bonus would only need to be like +24, not +124, because it's exponential)

Option 3 is already in hellcrawl and should be added to dcss. Inventory slots haven't been taken seriously as a limitation on the player for years. In general, items should be eliminated wherever possible. They are bad.

Option 1 is also in hellcrawl and works fine, though gnolls do not gain skill points in hellcrawl, their skills are based on experience level and initial background skills instead. The dcss gnoll/manual interaction is completely goofy. Gnolls get too much skill and certainly do not need more, but if they did, the lair-to-zot manual would not be the way to make it happen.

If you wanted to introduce alternative manual mechanics, a flat, permanent skill bonus on collection without the requirement of training skills would be better and cleaner for all characters. You eliminate a class of items, skill menu interactions, and all the weird mechanics associated with manuals as they exist now. Making items either not exist or less interactive is extremely good.

Is it really that bad gnolls use manuals super slowly? Deciding if you keep a manual or other item is no worse than any other item comparison. Gnolls having a bit more inventory pressure also seems like not a big deal.

I think the point is that inventory pressure itself is bad. It does not meaningfully limit the player, even if the player has 10 slots wasted by marginal items. It only creates more interface hassle.

duvessa wrote:On reflection: I'm stupid. Changing the aptitude bonus wouldn't affect the speed at which the manual gets used, so it's pointless. So forget about option 2.

Well, if you set the apt bonus to +124 you'd probably be able to drop the manual faster by virtue of maxing the skill...

More seriously, manuals are not a tactical item and may as well be goldified. They are purely passive with no downsides and need not be interacted with again in any way after picking it up, unlike equipment or consumables.

tealizard wrote:If you wanted to introduce alternative manual mechanics, a flat, permanent skill bonus on collection without the requirement of training skills would be better and cleaner for all characters. You eliminate a class of items, skill menu interactions, and all the weird mechanics associated with manuals as they exist now. Making items either not exist or less interactive is extremely good.

I also like this idea. Changing aptitudes mid-game already exists with draconians, making manuals a smaller but permanent aptitude boost sounds clean and simple. If there's any concern about acquirement optimization on gnolls, it could simply require Using the manual (which would consume it) instead of being automatic on pickup.

The main problem is the elimination of tactical choices provided by manuals currently; a short-term but dramatic aptitude boost is arguably more likely to make you consider training the manual's skill than a permanent and retroactive apt boost. The latter simply buffs any skills you've already trained with no further investment required, whilst providing less incentive to train a new skill you haven't invested in. That being said, I've never found a manual for a skill I hadn't trained and thought "Oh, maybe I should learn this skill after all.", so this might not be an actual issue...

The acquirement issue can be avoided by using a heroism style skill boost, say a flat +1.0 to skill level, that does not count in "real skill" calculations. This also avoids the ashenzari skill transfer interaction.

Another solution could be to make gnolls focus exclusively on the skill(s) of the manual(s) they carry and temporarily stop training their other skills. It would fit within their flavor of being somewhat obsessive-compulsive I suppose. I can't think of any reasons this would lead to degenerate behavior either. Not sure how easy it would be to program, though.

That would entrench the bad mechanics of manuals.

tealizard wrote:That would entrench the bad mechanics of manuals.

Do you ever really find more than one manual at a time, though? Juggling manuals just doesn't ever happen very often. You would pick up a manual if it has a skill you want, turbo boost that skill, and then go back to training everything. Otherwise, the manual would be useless, but all characters have useless skills that can potentially be found in a manual.

That's not the point though. Finding one manual is already bad with current mechanics, particularly for gnolls but for other characters as well.

I think there's a certain charm in your proposed mechanics. They could even be an improvement if the rule across all species were that carrying manuals means training those skills. (Not as much of an improvement as other possibilities for manuals, including removal in my opinion.) As a special case for gnolls, it is inconsistent and forecloses on other better possibilities for manuals.

Option 4: Remove manuals from the game entirely. If you're training a skill, you carry the manual... if not, you don't. This is a complete no-brainer decision. At best you could argue that in the rare case where a desirable manual is generated in a shop, the player has to make a decision about when they can afford to make the purchase, but even so, I don't think that decision is meaningful enough to justify keeping them in the game, especially if they're causing ancillary problems.

Option 5: Rework manuals to be consumables that simply improve a skill aptitude by one point, permanently. No fuss, no muss. Still a no-brainer.

Nekoatl wrote:Option 4: Remove manuals from the game entirely. If you're training a skill, you carry the manual... if not, you don't. This is a complete no-brainer decision.

The decision is: should i train the skill I wasn't going to train, now that I have a manual which will make it train twice as fast?

To which the correct answer is almost always "no", because if the skill is worth having, it's worth training even without a manual.

what about letting gnolls train all skills faster with any manual. They are generalists, so they can pick up general applications for any manual. They would use up manuals super fast though lol.

gameguard wrote:what about letting gnolls train all skills faster with any manual. They are generalists, so they can pick up general applications for any manual.

This, but also make the training bonus not +4, but +4/(number of skills). This makes manuals practically insignificant for gnolls, which is ok in itself imo.

+1 to giving manuals the spellbook treatment. Benefits everyone. Some games have inventory management be a big deal, crawl is already not one of them.

Considering how rare are the situations where a manual actually matters in a game I think the most clean way to solve this issue would to remove at all manuals.

I mean, I believe there are 3 situations:

1) The manual is one skills the char won't ever use, e.g. stealth on a char wearing plate armor or a long blade for a polearm guy.
2) The manual is a "core" skill the char want to train. This may be one of the generic good for all chars such as fighting, weapon skill or whatever, or a specific such as fire magic for a fire mage guy.
3) The manual is of one "support" skill the char would train only as extra, when he has some extra exp point to save, such as hexes or charms or throwing or whatever.

In the 1st case, the manual is 100% useless.
In the 2nd case the manual isn't interesting - at most the char may train some point extra of that skill, or earlier, because it is cheaper, but that will change almost nothing.
The 3rd case is the only one where I can see some interesting decisions, like "maybe I'm going to train a bit of hexes I wouldn't otherwise had".
However considering the experience balance and the boost provided by the manual itself, I don't think there are realistic cases where would be a legit good choice to train that skill with the manual avaiable, and it would be a real bad choice if the manual wasn't.

TL;DR: remove manuals.

nago wrote:In the 2nd case the manual isn't interesting .

By that reasoning, you might as well remove potions of experience too.

inb4 duvessa unironically thanks.

This is getting pretty far afield from the OP's "manuals and gnolls" proposals; do the mandatory "remove/rework manuals" thing in another thread please

Actually, removing and reworking manuals are both excellent options for solving this problem with gnolls and completely on topic. Reworking manuals is one of the options I provided in the OP!

Rast wrote:
nago wrote:In the 2nd case the manual isn't interesting .

By that reasoning, you might as well remove potions of experience too.

inb4 duvessa unironically thanks.

The rare experience potion on early dungeon have a very big impact and makes a big difference, in opposition to manuals, whatever the point you get them.

I don't know if this is to be considered positive or negative, but certainly makes experience potions noteworthy.
However, by I dunno, Lair they are pretty unremarkable

duvessa wrote:- Goldify manuals so that they don't take up an inventory slot.

This is the simplest.

duvessa wrote:This has the problem that gnolls may prefer to avoid a manual to a useless skill in order to manipulate acquirements.

Nobody will do this and it's not a problem. And if someone does want to do this, they will just turn off autopickup of manuals. And if they are in zig/pan/abyss when it happens then I guess they will have to make the super-important strategic decision whether to take the manual or leave it behind forever. Meaningful decisions, hurrah!

I'm glad someone brought up xp potions. To me, it would make a lot of sense to roll manuals and xp potions into a single class of gold-like items that give a bonus to a single skill as described upthread. These mechanics are cleaner (no carrying things, no menu dives, no quaff/id), more likely to put the player in nago's scenario 3 than current mechanics, and less disruptive to the overall xp curve of the game (see the early xp potion case).

Rast wrote:
duvessa wrote:This has the problem that gnolls may prefer to avoid a manual to a useless skill in order to manipulate acquirements.

Nobody will do this

I would do it.

duvessa wrote:
Rast wrote:
duvessa wrote:This has the problem that gnolls may prefer to avoid a manual to a useless skill in order to manipulate acquirements.

Nobody will do this
I would do it.

And would it affect your win chance, at all?

Rast wrote:
duvessa wrote:I would do it.

And would it affect your win chance, at all?

IIRC weapon acquirement weights skill pretty heavily? I wonder if the most useful thing Gn can do with a manual right now is bump your bows / crossbows skill up to be above the rest of your skills so you can get a good shot at a sick ranged unrand from acquirement.

You could make any manual work for all skills, but have the same capped amount of skill XP so it expires in the same time and raises each skill less than a manual normally would raise one skill. Reading a manual of axes and getting a new perspective on summoning seems pretty gnoll-ish.

johlstei wrote:You could make any manual work for all skills, but have the same capped amount of skill XP so it expires in the same time and raises each skill less than a manual normally would raise one skill. Reading a manual of axes and getting a new perspective on summoning seems pretty gnoll-ish.

So a delayed-action potion of xp?

nago wrote:In the 2nd case the manual isn't interesting - at most the char may train some point extra of that skill, or earlier, because it is cheaper, but that will change almost nothing.

But it feels good.

Not everything needs to be a decision, sometimes it's just nice to find stuff which helps you in a straightforward way. That's not fundamentally bad game design or anything like that.

Manuals just shouldn't work for Gnolls. Their racial doesn't allow for the focused study that a manual requires.

Having manuals exist seems worthwhile to me. They add an aspect of game-to-game variety -- moreso than potions of XP.

Since not all skills are smoothly beneficial at all increments, not all manual decisions are no-brainers. For example the decision of whether to carry and use major evokables may be at stake, or whether to promote from a buckler to a medium shield, or whether to build toward a level X spell within your current endgame goal.

Manuals of Fighting could be removed, I suppose.

i dunno, would be nice is manuals added +1 to every skill for gnolls

The Tavern

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