Remove Translocations


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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 15:44

Re: Remove Translocations

I definitely feel apportation is too cheap (you barely need to invest into translocations to use it).

I don't dislike it though. Being able to pull stuff from LoS is really useful and a nice benefit for investing in an utility school. But I feel it could be a bit more expensive.

Maybe, to compensate for higher level it could pull ALL items in LoS into your tile (with radius or success increasing with spellpower) and throw items you have marked for autopickup straight in your inventory. This would be a godsend for ranged users

Translocations should definitely not go away though, one of the best things about roguelikes as opposed to ARPGs to me is the amount of utility tools and spells you can have as opposed to just dumb nukes and buffs
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 16:02

Re: Remove Translocations

I find myself confused by claims that apportation's level isn't high enough, when the problem with the spell really has nothing to do with the spell level. If you increase the level of the spell, this only turns the spell off for a larger fraction of characters, but once it's available, the mechanical problems of using it to grab things outside of combat (or on the outskirts of it) come right back. The mp cost is never going to be meaningful.

When the mp cost isn't enough to make a mechanically sound spell (which is most of the time, mp isn't even designed to address that sort of issue, it's just there because spells gotta cost something) you either have to be willing to bring in some other idea to balance things or give up on the spell.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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duvessa, Rast
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 16:23

Re: Remove Translocations

tealizard wrote:If you increase the level of the spell, this only turns the spell off for a larger fraction of characters.


My point is that I think the problem with it is that it should be a boon for players that actually invest in translocations rather than just something any character can choose to memorize at almost any point in the game. The point is not the MP cost, which I agree is not a big deal, but limiting who can actually use it

tealizard wrote: the mechanical problems of using it to grab things outside of combat (or on the outskirts of it) come right back


Why is this so problematic? If apportation is a level 3 spell that is a spell that is not helping you in clearing the dungeon or surviving when things actually go wrong. Why is it so bad for apportation to be spammable and not for stone arrow? I bet you would never consider throwing a drain cost on the latter.

I do think it would be nice though to have apportation be less tedious. Maybe make it a passive like DMissiles that uses autopickup from distance as soon as useful things come into its range.

You could also balance it by making it noisy. You can use it to pick up something and not get close to a monster, but said monster is going to start pursuing you as soon as you use it. Maybe reducing its range could work too.

Anyway, what I see when I see you throwing a Drain cost on every utility spell in translocations all I can think is, why the hell would I ever pick this up over the dumb and straightforward alternatives like Conjurations/Summonings or ranged combat
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 16:43

Re: Remove Translocations

Whatever mp is supposed to do in this game, the closest it ever gets to doing it is with spells like stone arrow. Combat is time-critical, so something that recovers over time can be meaningfully limited in combat. (Not that limited, though. I'm not wild about mp for direct damage spells either, but that's another story.) A drain cost would not mean you can't use it, you just wouldn't use it on everything you see. In other words, using it correctly would be the same as the way everyone already uses it.

As for alternative apportation mechanics, an untargeted version that just grabs everything would be much better than the current version because targeting in general is a pain in the ass. A persistent duration version, sure, though dcss does not have mp/spellcasting mechanics appropriate to such an effect. See hellcrawl for the sort of thing needed to make that work.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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duvessa, nago, Pereza0

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 17:47

Re: Remove Translocations

Making apportation just apport all items in sight sounds pretty good. That saves a lot of turns for ranged users retrieving ammo especially, whilst only boosting the convenience portion of the spell; power wise, using it for something like snatching runes or getting stuff away from dangerous monsters is just the same as before. If you want to spam it on every floor item you see, just macro an Apport button.

If the spell needed an actual nerf (so spamming it is not always the correct play), noise seems appropriate. Dragging items across the ground does seem like a noisy business.

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Pereza0
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 19:05

Re: Remove Translocations

MP is mostly a time-critical limitation and a sustained engagement limitation. Buffs and utility spells can an should be mostly used outside or before combat, and don't need to be cast many times, so MP cost is not very important.

When I say increase the level, I don't do say it for the MP, I say it to increase the investment the spell requires.

Take Haste before it went away. The spellMP cost was not a limitation for sure, but the skill investment was there for sure (even if it was almost always worth it)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 10th November 2018, 22:56

Re: Remove Translocations

Pereza0 wrote:Take Haste before it went away. The spellMP cost was not a limitation for sure, but the skill investment was there for sure (even if it was almost always worth it)
If you're going to argue against removing Apportation, you might want to compare it to other spells that haven't been removed.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 11th November 2018, 00:24

Re: Remove Translocations

Deflect Missiles is the most obvious example. Literally no MP problem - but it takes some XP investment. Good enough?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 11th November 2018, 01:09

Re: Remove Translocations

Deflect missiles effectively costs no mp. It also breaks basic rules about the interaction between armor and spellcasting. Doing a bit of code paleontology a while back, I noticed that years ago there was a branch that introduced a very bad form of mp reserve that I guess was supposed to go with deflect missiles' then-new mechanics, but I guess it was realized that it was bad and no better idea came up so it was abandoned. Anyway, deflect missiles' mechanics are good by dcss standards in my opinion, but they're not ready for prime time, even though they've been in like six releases or something.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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nago
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