Experimental branch: Known Traps


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Friday, 26th October 2018, 04:02

Experimental branch: Known Traps

Welcome friends. I've got a branch that makes some changes to traps. Currently a playable experimental on cpo, hopefully coming soon to cbro.

You can read the details on GitHub, the short of it is as follows. Traps in crawl serve two (three) purposes: tactical terrain to maneuver with and tension creation (and vault decoration, to a lesser extent). Unfortunately tying both to a single discovered feature that's sometimes hidden doesn't do either of these things all that well. The changes in this branch come in two categories.

Tactical changes
  • All traps that are features are revealed
  • Alarm traps are now like zot traps: they always target the player when set off
  • New trap type: dispersal trap, which blinks everything in los when triggered (including the triggerer). Permanent

Tension creation
  • Trap like effects happen with a fixed chance per tile revealed
  • Effects are either getting shafted or alarmed (mark plus noise)

I'd appreciate your feedback (after playing it), but try to stick to a narrow focus. Is the effect rate good for the explore effects (high/low)? Do the new alarm traps have a noticeable effect or are you just treating them like Zot traps? How do the dispersal traps feel?

Please don't take this thread to whine about shafts, we're keeping them, and there are plenty of of other threads to do that in.

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Post Friday, 26th October 2018, 06:52

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

As far as I see from commits the average number of traps was almost halved to compensate triggering from exploration, correct?

  Code:
 -   const int depth_bonus = div_rand_round(env.absdepth0, 5);
 -   return random2avg(3 + depth_bonus, 2);
 +   return 1 + env.absdepth0 / 10;
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Post Friday, 26th October 2018, 14:51

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

No. That function returns the mean of the function that it replaced. This mean is then used elsewhere as an input to random processes to determine trap placement (should be the same, I might be off by one) and trap effects (the exact answer is in do_trap_effects and depends on density)

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Post Saturday, 27th October 2018, 05:52

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Then I suggest to decrease amount of traps. Explore traps are always revealed (there is no reason to not fully explore levels unless speedrunning) unlike step traps.
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Post Sunday, 25th November 2018, 13:05

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

This is now playable on the new public server, crawl.kelbi.org

I’m also interested in vault submissions that make use of the new dispersal traps in creative ways.
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Post Tuesday, 27th November 2018, 10:29

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Hi, I just won a game with a MiFi^Qaz on CKO (EthnicCake, first winner on that server+branch it looks like). I didn't actually know what it was about when I started playing it; judging by the name I thought it was just something that made traps more known. Some thoughts:

* I got shafted and alarm-trapped a lot more than in a normal game. I don't normally play in a trap-avoiding or conservative manner (in fact I was pretty reckless that game :p) and I estimate I got shafted about 3x the normal rate, at least. Alarm traps happened more often too, though with Qaz this had minimal impact. I actually tend to like when the game throws curveballs at me even when they can seem unfair, so I didn't really mind, but I imagine this will elicit a whole lot of complaints from most players.

* Dispersal traps were a neat idea but too infrequent to really make any kind of difference at all in my game. I suppose it's possible for a particularly lucky or unlucky placement of one to happen. I could also see them being used in vaults to good effect. Also there's no tile for them, so they just show up as a big ? in tiles mode, but you might know this already. You could probably recycle the icon for the dispersal spell, it looks trap-like enough.

* In Zot:5 the player is basically guaranteed to get marked several times over shortly after they enter the map. This can work to the player's advantage, if there's a good layout where they can fight enemies one at a time and have a staircase to retreat to. I think this changes the way Zot:5 plays too much; even getting marked by one alarm trap makes it so you can draw out most of the nasty things to fight them one at a time if you're still not in the Zot vault, or so you get swarmed by everything if you are in the vault. It seems as if the player always gets marked when something steps on an alarm trap, even if they are out of LOS of the trap? If that's right I'd suggest making them not affect a player out of LOS, the way Zot traps do.

Anyhow I like the idea overall.
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Post Tuesday, 27th November 2018, 14:42

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Thanks for the feedback. You're not the only person who haas suggested the rate is too high. I'll tone it down a bit more.

Alarm traps only trigger if the player is in LOS, I think it's just the trap rate for Zot:5 is so high that it can feel like the player is getting marked al the time. Once the rate is toned down I hope you can revisit this and see if it still seems like an issue.
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Post Tuesday, 27th November 2018, 22:22

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Will do!

Also, I think teleport traps should be available as exploration triggers. On the github page, you wrote

Teleport as an explore effect isn't that exciting. It starts out with a chance to be as exciting as a shaft, but as the player explores the chance of ending in a safe area after a teleport increases.


but I think the fact that they start out potentially dangerous but get less so as you explore the level is interesting in itself. They're also generally less harsh than a shaft even at the start of a floor, and I think that's also OK -- not everything needs to have maximum impactfulness. They also can appear on branch ends and other places where shafts can't.

It also occurs to me that maybe the reason I felt like I was getting shafted so much is because shafts might have been doing double duty as the function for teleport traps as well.
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Post Wednesday, 28th November 2018, 18:44

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Tele traps could also work like teleportitis and always move you towards monsters.
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Post Thursday, 29th November 2018, 09:31

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Just played my second game, the traps felt a lot more in line with a normal crawl game. If you don't add teleports back (I like nvjack's idea) then shafts could stand to be a little more frequent even.

Played as a stealthy felid, only one alarm in Zot:5, and after I'd cleared out a lot of the map. This made me pretty nervous though!
Image

I wanted to try extended to see how things played out there, didn't feel safe enough with this character though.

If you wanted it, I removed the background from the dispersal spell icon: Image. I can upload it somewhere else if an imgur link like this is no good.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 03:30

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

This is now merged in trunk (with a few more changes: a lowered (again) trap rate, and teleportitis teleport effects added to the mix).

Further feedback is of course welcome.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 04:18

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

oh god yes

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 07:00

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

I've read the opening post, and I still have absolutely no idea what this change actually means. Can someone help me, and explain it?
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 08:01

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Very cool idea! Really excited to have traps exist and be threatening without any weird 'optimal trap avoidance' issues.

Besides shaft/tele/alarm, maybe one of the 'triggered when explored' traps could be the old shadow creatures trap?

Alternatively, the teleport trap could be tied to a weak shadow creatures effect, so that no matter where on the map you appear, you are immediately presented with a fight.

In fact, any kind of damage/debilitating effect could be put on a trap if it's tied with something that forces a fight (recall, shadow creatures, teleport towards enemies). Slow/-Tele/fight this monster could be VERY scary, for example. So there's lots of possibilities in this new format to have effectively interesting 'ambushes', and I think they should be at least considered. Fights are more interesting IMO when they're forced on the player instead of the player being able to dictate when and where they happen.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 09:30

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

This would explain some of the weirdness I've been seeing :)

https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/soulfreshner/morgue-soulfreshner-20181204-080223.txt
Shafted twice in the first 2 turns! Dead in 6.

Maybe there should be a cooldown period for traps after being triggered? The timeout could be based on dlvl.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 10:01

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

I haven't played yet with those changes, so it's just a speculation: trap triggered when appearing encourages to reveal less new tiles at same time as possible.
This is going to further punish auto-explore, doesn't it?
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 11:52

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

So can anyone summarize the changes in a neat way? If traps are triggered when they're explored: it's a direct nerf to Barachi and a buff to darkness/nightstalker/robe of night which were already pretty damn powerful. Also, ZOT:5 will be way more dangerous and Vaults:5 could be a problem.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 13:19

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

soulfreshner wrote:This would explain some of the weirdness I've been seeing :)

https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/soulfreshner/morgue-soulfreshner-20181204-080223.txt
Shafted twice in the first 2 turns! Dead in 6.

Maybe there should be a cooldown period for traps after being triggered? The timeout could be based on dlvl.


Amazing death which proves that the cure is worse than the disease. Almost nobody was writing down which tiles were stepped on and some traps could even be used to players favor.

When PC enters a new floor, it has much higher chance to trigger a trap (or more likely even multiple traps at once) than when walking one tile. It makes already hard stage even harder while easy stage (when floor is almost cleared) is still easy.
What about an opposite solution? Your chance to trigger a trap should be minimal when you have just entered a new floor and it should increase with every tile you discovered. That might be a good "don't spend too much time on a floor" clock though it kills autoexplore :(
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 14:43

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Patashu wrote:Alternatively, the teleport trap could be tied to a weak shadow creatures effect, so that no matter where on the map you appear, you are immediately presented with a fight.


It's not random teleport, its the teleportitis teleport: you only get tele'd if the game can find some monsters to teleport you to.

VortexTurtle wrote:So can anyone summarize the changes in a neat way? If traps are triggered when they're explored: it's a direct nerf to Barachi and a buff to darkness/nightstalker/robe of night which were already pretty damn powerful. Also, ZOT:5 will be way more dangerous and Vaults:5 could be a problem.


Random trap effects happen to the player at a once-per-tile-revealed roll. Over the course of full exploring a level, the expected number of times this roll succeeds is the same for all characters regardless of LOS, though the trap chances for taking a given step are lower for lower LOS.

And yes, the alarm trap changes make the game harder, especially in high threat areas.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:11

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

So basically every tile is a trap? In what sense traps are "known" then? I understand nothing.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 15:44

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

I would rather call it "especially when entering a new level". As far as I understand it is relatively likely to enter Vaults:1 and then next turn you see you are in the middle of open quadrant from Vaults:5 while marked. When you enter a new level you are likely to see about a hundred of new tiles and they can have shaft traps easily. If you are lucky and there was no shaft but just teleport, the teleport is likely to teleport you into a different area with another 100 tiles which can have shaft.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:06

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

You understand it incorrectly. Shafts are still shafts: 3 floor maximum, no shaft into dangerous branch ends.

There are some sequencing issues with the sudden burst of rolls upon trapping, I've addressed those in a new commit.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:15

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

ebering wrote:You understand it incorrectly. Shafts are still shafts: 3 floor maximum, no shaft into dangerous branch ends.

There are some sequencing issues with the sudden burst of rolls upon trapping, I've addressed those in a new commit.

I think he was claiming you could be multi-shafted (Which is a possibility excluding dangerous branch ends as I understand it you could take one step from D:1 and end up on D:14 after one player action.) The possibility of that sounds like it would be much higher than it was, as you are forced to "reveal" a rather large set of tiles all at once. Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.

I'd suggest that the roll for traps only happen it when you take a normal movement action (not teleport, shafting, walking down stairs, etc.), this duplciates the old effect for staircases, and avoids trap cascades for teleports and shafts.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 19:28

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Siegurt wrote:I think he was claiming you could be multi-shafted (Which is a possibility excluding dangerous branch ends as I understand it you could take one step from D:1 and end up on D:14 after one player action.)


I'm not a sadist, buried in the commit log for the change is the remark that this is explicitly prevented. Further, as I alluded to, I made a subsequent commit: terrain viewed after a trap processes isn't rolled for traps, so they don't cascade.

Siegurt wrote:Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.


This is a paradigm shift and a player nerf, but the alternative (taking the stairs makes you immune) would make it always better to go down all stairs before further exploring (it already usually is), to reduce the total number of tiles rolled from traps.

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 20:12

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

ebering wrote:
Siegurt wrote:I think he was claiming you could be multi-shafted (Which is a possibility excluding dangerous branch ends as I understand it you could take one step from D:1 and end up on D:14 after one player action.)


I'm not a sadist, buried in the commit log for the change is the remark that this is explicitly prevented. Further, as I alluded to, I made a subsequent commit: terrain viewed after a trap processes isn't rolled for traps, so they don't cascade.

Siegurt wrote:Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.


This is a paradigm shift and a player nerf, but the alternative (taking the stairs makes you immune) would make it always better to go down all stairs before further exploring (it already usually is), to reduce the total number of tiles rolled from traps.

I think a compromise, aka the *first* entry into a level doesn't roll traps (in the same way that you get the first turn against monsters) would be probably the happiest medium, you already have to enter the level once. This preserves the "first entry into a level is always safe" paradigm which was IMHO a good one.
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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 20:37

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Siegurt wrote:I think he was claiming you could be multi-shafted (Which is a possibility excluding dangerous branch ends as I understand it you could take one step from D:1 and end up on D:14 after one player action.) The possibility of that sounds like it would be much higher than it was, as you are forced to "reveal" a rather large set of tiles all at once. Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.

I'd suggest that the roll for traps only happen it when you take a normal movement action (not teleport, shafting, walking down stairs, etc.), this duplciates the old effect for staircases, and avoids trap cascades for teleports and shafts.


Exactly. In that morgue file player didn't take any actions before he/she was shafted twice in a row, he/she factually started the game from D:4.

  Code:
     0 | D:1      | You fall through a shaft!
     1 | D:2      | You fall through a shaft for 2 floors!
     1 | D:4      | Noticed a hound


My 100 tiles estimation is probably below average as there are 224 tiles max in view if my math is correct.
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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 10:11

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

So, does the 'trap effect' check also happen on any action which expands the current LOS, regardless of actual movement? You can trigger a trap even when standing still, but digging to reveal new tiles, fog expiring around you, etc...?

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 14:58

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Yes, any LOS changing effect, but only for tiles that would grant explore piety (no dug tiles, no lava, no deep water).

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 19:48

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

ebering wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.


This is a paradigm shift and a player nerf, but the alternative (taking the stairs makes you immune) would make it always better to go down all stairs before further exploring (it already usually is), to reduce the total number of tiles rolled from traps.
If you did want to avoid the paradigm shift while keeping the number of tiles rolled for traps the same, you could make all the tiles within LOS radius of the staircases never roll for traps (even if you didn't reveal them by taking the stairs). That spoilery cure is worse than the supposed disease though.

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 20:44

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

duvessa wrote:
ebering wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Additionally when taking a staircase you were always previously guaranteed to not land on a trap immediately, as the upstairs tile couldn't contain a trap, now it sounds like you have a somewhat large chance of going downstairs, and immediately being trapped before your first action on a level, which is a not-insignificant paradigm shift.


This is a paradigm shift and a player nerf, but the alternative (taking the stairs makes you immune) would make it always better to go down all stairs before further exploring (it already usually is), to reduce the total number of tiles rolled from traps.
If you did want to avoid the paradigm shift while keeping the number of tiles rolled for traps the same, you could make all the tiles within LOS radius of the staircases never roll for traps (even if you didn't reveal them by taking the stairs). That spoilery cure is worse than the supposed disease though.

That would work too, although I think I like "traps aren't rolled when you first enter a floor" better, myself. If, of course, it needs fixing.
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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:26

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

I've liked a lot of the recent trunk changes but not this one. In general, agency-less deaths should be viewed as a bad implementation, not a good one. Possibility for legit player mistakes to lead to death are common in this game and could be made more so. Traps run a risk of death-without-counterplay that is disproportionately more likely than other mechanics and as such were already on shaky grounds.

This change makes it a bit worse, however. You can indeed go down stairs and be stripped of the 1 move grace to assess situation. You can get immediately teleported into danger, shafted, or worse.

I'm not sure if Zot traps are an exception, but if not you could literally get 100-0'd as a result of entering a floor from the first time without getting a move (Zot trap paralysis). That's not something that has a place in a game that takes hours to complete start to finish; player agency is important in games like this and it's not clear what value is added by diluting it with pure RNG.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 20:01

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Getting shafted or teleported doesn't kill you.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 20:41

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

duvessa wrote:Getting shafted or teleported doesn't kill you.


Usually not, though it can depending on what happens when you arrive (may or may not have a valid move that isn't high % death chance). In a game that is designed to reward careful play/punish tabbing into the unknown, it's strange to randomly dump effects that are similar to doing that but worse. Get this before you can realistically ID your escape resources and it's effectively a 100-0. Especially for frail species where a TP takes too long, so only a handful of possible options can possibly save the scenario (blink scroll, maybe fear, some background/species dependent stuff).

Zot trap absolutely can just kill you outright via paralysis, though your excluding that suggests you agree.

The real question remains "how does this make the game better". What is the proportionate increase in *meaningful choices* made by the player, relative to increased frequency of death without agency?

Only a tiny percentage of my deaths have come from effectively agency-less traps. Maybe 1%ish. As I improve as a player that number will grow, simply because I'll die less frequently to preventable situations. If it ever gets past 10% I'd likely be a very strong player, but it doesn't change the reality. What actual gameplay purpose do such deaths serve? What are players supposed to take away from unwinnable situations arising completely independently of reasonable choice?

It's one thing to have that happen on rare occasions due to a complex interaction of a lot of factors that are individually safe with good play. It'd be hard to get rid of all of those even if disproportionate time was spent attempting it. It's another to intentionally implement such outcomes or increase their frequency. The present implementation of traps seems to go against the general direction of the overwhelming majority of crawl's mechanics.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 23:44

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

TheMeInTeam wrote:As I improve as a player that number will grow
As you improve as a player, you will start to recognize that getting shafted or teleported is not a death sentence, and that the percentage of your deaths that were due to traps, rather than your own errors, is 0%.

Also, please read the last sentence of the OP again.

TheMeInTeam wrote:Zot trap absolutely can just kill you outright via paralysis, though your excluding that suggests you agree.
No. Paralysis, like shafting and teleporting, deals precisely 0 damage to you. There are Zot trap effects that deal direct damage, and those can kill you outright, but you need to be aggressively diving to actually reach a Zot trap with max HP that low.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 23:50

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

TheMeInTeam wrote:Zot trap absolutely can just kill you outright via paralysis, though your excluding that suggests you agree.


Zot traps were left out because Zot traps aren't on the list of possible effects for exploration based trap effects.

TheMeInTeam wrote:You can indeed go down stairs and be stripped of the 1 move grace to assess situation. You can get immediately teleported into danger, shafted, or worse.


You can't get shafted from the staircase (yes, this is a spoilery special case), only teleported or alarmed. In both of the latter cases you still receive your first-move advantage if it's the first set of stairs you've gone down for that level (you only get first-move advantage on your first entry to the level, though), just the situation that you must assess might be worse.

It seems like a lot of what you're arguing is really that the shaft and teleport effects are, in and of themselves, bad. Here, the devteam disagrees with you: the potential for these effects to randomly create exciting, difficult, and memorable encounters is very high. Difficulty spikes from shafts and teleports are excellent places for a player to show off their skill, and the (very few) truly unavoidable deaths that result are an acceptable cost. This is, however, getting off topic. There are plenty of old threads where the topic of whether or not shafts are good has been beaten to death and other members of the devteam have weighed in. As I said in post 1:
ebering wrote:Please don't take this thread to whine about shafts, we're keeping them, and there are plenty of of other threads to do that in.


I'm interested in play testing feedback about how the new system compares to the old in this thread.
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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 23:55

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Out of curiosity, how did you model the difference between the probability of seeing a trap and the probability of stepping on a trap?
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 01:24

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

In modeling the old system? I made an attempt at multiplying a guess at "average fraction of tiles stepped on" by "fraction of trapped tiles" by "trap discovery for average xl at that level". Figuring out the first factor is raw guess work. The second factor is also a real doozy: the number of traps in a depth in the old system was a random roll based on depth and independent of density. Modeling depth density throughout the dungeon is something that seemed rather daunting considering the many different layout generators so I gave up and went for experimental tuning instead.

During the experimental branch lowered the new rate twice. It seems like it's still a bit higher in expectation than the old system but I'm not sure the increase is of a magnitude that makes it bad.

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tealizard

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 06:43

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

New system solves one problem - players don't need to use the same tiles when retreating.
New system added new problems:
1) players are encouraged to lure monsters more than in old system. For example, previously you could consider rushing/blinking towards that Cyclop or Centaur, now you are better retreating. In new system there is huge difference between going one step forward and one step back.
2) new levels are much more dangerous, devs were forced to add some spoilery special cases to make it playable.
3) players are still encouraged to step on the same tiles to avoid unexplored tiles while retreating but punishment for accidental mistake is much more because instead of stepping on a new tile with trap you instantly have multiple chances to reveal traps.

What can I propose as solution? Unlink traps from unexplored tiles. Every time you step on any tile you have a chance to get affected by a trap or traps.
So if does not matter which direction you are walking, there is no sudden spike on new levels, almost explored level is still as dangerous as a new level due to teleport and shaft traps. Excessive luring becomes sttictly bad!
Last edited by VeryAngryFelid on Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 07:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 06:54

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Also some other funny effects of new system:
1) using shadow step is more likely to result in being marked than before
2) already broken spell passage of golubria becomes even more useful as it is a sure way to return back after teleport traps
3) all jump things like c.blink, blink, Ru, Ba are nerfed unless you always use them to retreat into known territory
4) using hutch to enter vaults 5 is even better than before
5) corridors are even better than before! Always shout and wait some time when you see exit from the corridor you are in.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 07:11

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

VeryAngryFelid wrote:1) players are encouraged to lure monsters more than in old system. For example, previously you could consider rushing/blinking towards that Cyclop or Centaur, now you are better retreating. In new system there is huge difference between going one step forward and one step back.
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. stepping onto that tile could hit you with a trap in the old system too
VeryAngryFelid wrote:2) new levels are much more dangerous
this isn't a problem
VeryAngryFelid wrote:3) players are still encouraged to step on the same tiles to avoid unexplored tiles while retreating but punishment for accidental mistake is much more because instead of stepping on a new tile with trap you instantly have multiple chances to reveal traps.
this is not true, the new system does not inherently make the punishment larger. yes, you can have multiple chances to get hit by a trap effect, but those individual chances are smaller than with the old system
VeryAngryFelid wrote:1) using shadow step is more likely to result in being marked than before
this isn't a problem
VeryAngryFelid wrote:2) already broken spell passage of golubria becomes even more useful as it is a sure way to return back after teleport traps
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. passage of golubria nullified teleport traps in the old system too
VeryAngryFelid wrote:3) all jump things like c.blink, blink, Ru, Ba are nerfed unless you always use them to retreat into known territory
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. jumping onto a new square could hit you with a trap in the old system too. also, this is not a problem in the first place
VeryAngryFelid wrote:4) using hutch to enter vaults 5 is even better than before
this isn't a problem
VeryAngryFelid wrote:What can I propose as solution? Unlink traps from unexplored tiles. Every time you step on any tile you have a chance to get affected by a trap or traps.
So if does not matter which direction you are walking, there is no sudden spike on new levels, almost explored level is still as dangerous as a new level due to teleport and shaft traps.
this has the same problem as the old system (massively punishing autoexplore) while bringing a bunch of new problems along with it

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 07:42

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

duvessa wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:1) players are encouraged to lure monsters more than in old system. For example, previously you could consider rushing/blinking towards that Cyclop or Centaur, now you are better retreating. In new system there is huge difference between going one step forward and one step back.
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. stepping onto that tile could hit you with a trap in the old system too


There is high difference in probabilities unless that Cyclop is in a narrow area. You can assume that every step towards will discover very many new tiles in 3 main directions.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:2) new levels are much more dangerous
this isn't a problem


It is. I don't think it is desirable to increase danger difference between new and almost explored level. I believe quite the opposite may be true as it reduces unavoidable deaths and boring/trivial play periods.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:3) players are still encouraged to step on the same tiles to avoid unexplored tiles while retreating but punishment for accidental mistake is much more because instead of stepping on a new tile with trap you instantly have multiple chances to reveal traps.
this is not true, the new system does not inherently make the punishment larger. yes, you can have multiple chances to get hit by a trap effect, but those individual chances are smaller than with the old system

I am not sure. As far as I understand from this thread no perfect scaling was possible and players still complain that traps are more common than before.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:1) using shadow step is more likely to result in being marked than before
this isn't a problem
It is funny moment that stabbers were nerfed again while those guys in heavy armour are not that affected.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:2) already broken spell passage of golubria becomes even more useful as it is a sure way to return back after teleport traps
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. passage of golubria nullified teleport traps in the old system too

Scale is different. Passage of golubria in new system allows to reveal all teleportation traps in view while in old system it only helped with tiles you stepped on.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:3) all jump things like c.blink, blink, Ru, Ba are nerfed unless you always use them to retreat into known territory
this has nothing to do with the new trap system. jumping onto a new square could hit you with a trap in the old system too. also, this is not a problem in the first place

Now the chance to get affected by traps depends on distance to the destination and surrounding. Quite funny IMHO.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:4) using hutch to enter vaults 5 is even better than before
this isn't a problem
Just a funny moment indeed.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:What can I propose as solution? Unlink traps from unexplored tiles. Every time you step on any tile you have a chance to get affected by a trap or traps.
So if does not matter which direction you are walking, there is no sudden spike on new levels, almost explored level is still as dangerous as a new level due to teleport and shaft traps.
this has the same problem as the old system (massively punishing autoexplore) while bringing a bunch of new problems along with it

I don't see how new system solved problem with autoexploring. If I autoexplore, I trigger ALL traps on the level, it is much much worse than autoexplore was in old version.
I listed which problems are solved by my suggestion i.e. punishing excessive luring, all directions are equivalent, new levels are as dangerous as almost cleared ones. You are welcome to write which new problems are created.

Edit. I recall I have read about that "my" suggestion before but I am not sure either it was this forum or dev wiki so I suspect it was discussed in details and I miss its serious flaw(s).
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 07:54

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

Another question is why can't we just improve old system by coloring tiles which were stepped on and changing autoexplore to use them if possible?
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 08:00

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I don't see how new system solved problem with autoexploring. If I autoexplore, I trigger ALL traps on the level
if you manually explore, you also trigger ALL traps on the level. no matter how you explore, fully exploring a level means you get "ALL" the trap effects for that level. that's the point
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Another question is why can't we just improve old system by coloring tiles which were stepped on and changing autoexplore to use them if possible?
this still hits autoexplore users with more trap effects (because autoexplore does not minimize tiles stepped on), and it still rewards you for guiding monsters over tiles instead of stepping on them yourself, and it still rewards formicids for exploring via digging instead of stepping on original floor squares.
and just how do you plan to convey in console how many times monsters have stepped on each square? does each . go through a bunch of different colour and character combinations as it gets stepped on more? and again even if you do automatically mark the squares fully, and make autoexplore and autotravel use them, the gameplay around it would still be a pain in the ass.

and also if traps are going to exist they should actually hit you instead of just being squares you avoid

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 08:18

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

duvessa wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I don't see how new system solved problem with autoexploring. If I autoexplore, I trigger ALL traps on the level
if you manually explore, you also trigger ALL traps on the level. no matter how you explore, fully exploring a level means you get "ALL" the trap effects for that level. that's the point


I was comparing old system to new one in regards to autoexplore, not autoexplore to manual explore in any system.
Autoexplore becomes much worse in new system because it didn't trigger all traps in old system.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Another question is why can't we just improve old system by coloring tiles which were stepped on and changing autoexplore to use them if possible?
this still hits autoexplore users with more trap effects (because autoexplore does not minimize tiles stepped on), and it still rewards you for guiding monsters over tiles instead of stepping on them yourself, and it still rewards formicids for exploring via digging instead of stepping on original floor squares.
and just how do you plan to convey in console how many times monsters have stepped on each square? does each . go through a bunch of different colour and character combinations as it gets stepped on more? and again even if you do automatically mark the squares fully, and make autoexplore and autotravel use them, the gameplay around it would still be a pain in the ass.


I am not an expert in console (tried it just twice) but is it normal that we cannot improve game just because console lacks an extra color or something?

and also if traps are going to exist they should actually hit you instead of just being squares you avoid


It is not a question but it should be a question IMHO.
Obviously traps should be different from hell effects so players should have some control i.e. player should have a way to limit when traps trigger (not while resting, for example) and if they even trigger (manually running to closest downstairs should allow keep most traps untriggered, for example). The latter means that "if traps are going to exist they should actually hit you instead of just being squares you avoid" is false. The traps (along with some other factors like monsters, food, piety etc.) forced you to skip the level missing XP, items, shops etc so they were good even despite they were not triggered.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 14:05

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I was comparing old system to new one in regards to autoexplore, not autoexplore to manual explore in any system.

There may be some misunderstanding. I cannot speak for ebering, but I believe this change is not intended to preserve the balance of the player's power level; rather, it is just intended to make the game more fun.

To make the game more fun, the game design should not allow tedious activities to increase the chance of winning. Even if the player doesn't engage in these activities, they still make the game less fun. Because when the player wants to play optimally yet finds it too tedious to do so and thus knowingly chooses not to, it feels bad.

Manual exploration, and using monsters to reveal traps, can be considered tedious activities that increase the chance of winning. With this change, manual exploration becomes less beneficial relative to autoexplore, and using monsters to reveal traps no longer works at all. As a result, the game is more fun.

Many players associate power level (as in, ease of winning) with fun and as a result are unhappy about nerfs, but in theory, this is association is false. Thus, discussion about power level has little or no relevance.

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 14:33

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

About this back and forth with veryangryfelid here, a point that is often lost in talking about movement "into the black" is that whether it's best practices or not, it creates good gameplay. The value in generating random terrain is greatly diminished when the player can and should always work with known terrain, even their chosen terrain. People correctly take Patashu's classic guide to crawl tactics as a basic text on how to play, but it is more valuable as a critical text on crawl -- it is a text about what's wrong. It is absolutely not to be taken as the text on how things should be.

It's true that approaching monsters always introduced a risk of triggering a hidden trap on the way. It is also true that now the likelihood of doing so depends on the geometry of the dungeon near the monster. It's not the same. You are even more discouraged from approaching monsters in some situations (assuming the estimates described above are reasonably accurate). This is particularly true with blink and shadow step. It is overly glib to dismiss that. Tactics that involve blinking toward unexplored territory often produce very interesting gameplay.

A lot is made of the fact that the old system gave an advantage to players who track the spaces they've visited and carefully retrace their steps when luring. In the new system, the game helpfully tracks which tiles are revealed so that you can carefully avoid revealing new ones when luring. In principle this is better, I suppose, but the exploration-path dependence is still there, the need to pay attention to subtle map details rather than the monster that you're running from is still there, and the thing you have to worry about is arguably gamier than before. It makes total sense that you'd avoid things called "traps" by retracing your steps exactly. Why the hell is it important not to see new territory to avoid traps? It makes no sense outside of the logic of incremental change and the history of the game. You've given up on the theme and flavor of hidden traps, but was there ever a rationale for them other than theme and flavor? If it's just about maintaining shafts, there are other ways of creating the shaft dynamic that are very much worth thinking about.

Anyway, back to my narrower point -- be careful about foreclosing, even marginally, on the possibilities of play everyone knows isn't the right thing to do. The point should be to shake up what that is, not to reinforce the existing practice.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 15:05

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

stormdragon wrote:Manual exploration, and using monsters to reveal traps, can be considered tedious activities that increase the chance of winning. With this change, manual exploration becomes less beneficial relative to autoexplore

In my experience the exact opposite of this is true. Autoexplore takes you in stupid ways far away into unexplored territory. This is bad in the old system too, but much-much worse in the new system. The reason: alarm traps are more dangerous the farther you are from the stairs - and in the new system alarm traps are a million times more common than in the old system.

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 15:07

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

An add-on to that regarding user interface:

Yes, under this system there is still an incentive not to reveal new tiles. However, unlike the tiles you've already tiles stepped on, the UI already communicates your explore horizon and indicates which tiles will possibly be revealed.

Console support is important for crawl and solutions that can't be implemented in console are non-starters. This isn't just for the long time console players who prefer it, it is an important accessibility feature. Visually impaired players may find the 32x32 pixel tiles hard to read even at high zoom levels simply because of the level of detail. Console glyphs are unambiguous. Indeed, the console interface is used (with some special glyphing to assist) by completely blind players via screen reading technology.

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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 15:11

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

stormdragon wrote:With this change, manual exploration becomes less beneficial relative to autoexplore


I disagree with this. For the record, I hate manual exploration and don't even try game titles without one. After entering a new level I press autoexplore. Consider this: in old system it moves me 5 tiles forward and I meet a monster, in new system I move 5 tiles forward and am teleported/shafted. Why? Because there is no goal to keep the same number of traps triggered per move as before, the goal is to make the game more "fun". With manual exploration I might move to that corridor and reveal just a few tiles per move.
Basically manual exploration becomes more attractive than ever because suddenly direction of your single step means different probabilities of being shafted/teleported which is a big deal for winning.

Ignoring the rest of your post as it stands on false premise.
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Post Wednesday, 12th December 2018, 15:24

Re: Experimental branch: Known Traps

I think an optimal solution would be to make position of stairs completely irrelevant for traps. The idea is that if it does not matter how far stairs are when you trigger a trap, then there is no difference between manual and autoexplore.
1) alarm traps. You cannot use stairs while you are marked unless you are Fo (cancellation is rare enough to matter).
2) shaft traps. You cannot get shafted before you explore 50% of level.
3) teleport traps. You never land in view of stairs.
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