Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they die


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 20th October 2018, 08:09

Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they die

If a monster dies carrying scrolls, potions, or wands, they should be destroyed. Have a message like "With its last breath, the orc [rips a scroll of teleportation apart / shatters a potion of resistance on the ground / dumps a potion of curing into the water / snaps a wand of acid in two]." The flavour is easily justifiable: the monsters don't want their enemies getting to use these items.

Currently monster consumable usage gives players three strategic incentives:
1. you get more consumables if you prevent monsters from picking up items (so minimize noise and do levels in few turns, basically)
2. you get more consumables if you prevent item-using monsters from taking actions in your LOS, even when said monsters are trivial
3. you get more scrolls of teleportation and blinking if you avoid using fear on item-using monsters

1. is debatably good, but 2. and 3. are just awful; there are tons of trivial item-using monsters and I shouldn't be penalized for rolling over orcs like rats instead of painstakingly using a corner for each one. Destroying the consumables anyway upon death gets rid of 2. and 3. while strengthening 1.

The item should be identified upon being destroyed (otherwise you incentivize doing the opposite, and intentionally letting monsters use their consumables to identify them).

While this will slightly reduce the number of consumables available in most games, you will still find plenty on the floor. Might need to change a couple of baileys though.

A stronger variant would be to destroy all of a monster's items when they die, so that you are additionally no longer penalized for killing monsters over deep water or lava, or for banishing them. However, among all the other implications, this would mean removing corpses and scales. By comparison the consumable destruction could be added quite easily, at worst it requires a few vault adjustments.

And yes, I am aware that this makes Maurice's item destruction more potent.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 3
cliffracer, Fingolfin, Pekkekke

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 20th October 2018, 19:22

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

In addition to this change, why not have monsters not pick up items at all, and have them sometimes generate with a consumable instead (which will be destroyed when they die as per this change). They already can't pick up items you've already seen, which is illogical for unspoiled players. So extend it to all items on the ground, and then to preserve the variety brought by monsters sometimes having consumables, make them sometimes spawn with one.

One thing that is lost from this change (not picking up items at all) is that I think it's pretty cool when a monster finds a super strong weapon on the floor.

I think destroying all carried items is more harm than good.

For this message the author Wahaha has received thanks: 3
Nekoatl, Pekkekke, TheMeInTeam

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 20th October 2018, 19:28

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

Wahaha wrote: They already can't pick up items you've already seen, which is illogical for unspoiled players.


I can confirm it's unexpected for an unspoiled player. I never imagined...

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 25th October 2018, 09:49

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

Wahaha wrote:have monsters not pick up items at all, and have them sometimes generate with a consumable instead
One thing that is lost from this change (not picking up items at all) is that I think it's pretty cool when a monster finds a super strong weapon on the floor.
Maybe just let them not pick up consumables?

My wishlist:
  • Get rid of the "player has seen items" mechanic
    It is spoilery and doesn't really make sense (except for gameplay reasons)
  • Monsters never pick up consumables
    This encourages annoying tactics just to obtain the item (see OP points 2&3)
  • Monsters can generate with consumables, which are all destroyed on death
    Monster consumables can be interesting, so we want to keep those
    Bonus: monster vs floor consumables might be tweaked separately: you could have a nasty vault filled with wand-zapping kobolds, without worrying about people getting their grubby hands on insane amounts of firepower.
  • Unidentified monster consumables either are identified on death, or not identified on use
    Otherwise players might want to wait for weak monsters to use-identify their items instead of just killing them
    e.g. "The critter is carrying a scroll of blinking, two unidentified scrolls, a wand of clouds and an unidentified wand" "The critter reads a scroll" "the critter zaps a wand at you"
  • Monsters never pick up other equipment either
    Getting rid of the Lair:2 stash was a Good Thing
    But maybe equipment could have a chance to generate inside a monster? Prying artifacts from the cold dead hands of your enemies seems more rewarding than just stumbling upon them anyway.

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Nekoatl

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 4th July 2019, 18:03

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

With monsters now using even more wands, this is even more important.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 4th July 2019, 18:48

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

duvessa wrote:If a monster dies carrying scrolls, potions, or wands, they should be destroyed. Have a message like "With its last breath, the orc [rips a scroll of teleportation apart / shatters a potion of resistance on the ground / dumps a potion of curing into the water / snaps a wand of acid in two]." The flavour is easily justifiable: the monsters don't want their enemies getting to use these items.


Justifiable doesn't equal anything remotely realistic, apparently. Specific scenario - I can't imagine directing my spite to this purpose if I'm say: lethally poisoned and burned from the inside/ split dead by a cannonball brought out of thin air/ decapitated by a glaive. I can understand if a large majority of my group nearby gets blasted to bits and I try to be defiant, I can imagine gravity teaming up with Murphy and bringing about some item destruction regardless. But the idea as stated above would be just silly. Maybe a percent chance instead, with separate rolls for distinct item stacks?

duvessa wrote:And yes, I am aware that this makes Maurice's item destruction more potent.


The easiest way of killing Maurice is paralysis, with 0 in Evocations a paralysis wand still has about an even chance of stopping him cold. Actually, this makes for another hole if Uskayaw or a {chaos} weapon stops your target completely. You can't intentionally break anything if you're unable to move.
There is always something new to learn.

Mines Malingerer

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Joined: Saturday, 17th December 2016, 18:26

Post Thursday, 4th July 2019, 19:40

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

Sorcerous wrote:Justifiable doesn't equal anything remotely realistic, apparently. Specific scenario - I can't imagine directing my spite to this purpose if I'm say: lethally poisoned and burned from the inside/ split dead by a cannonball brought out of thin air/ decapitated by a glaive. I can understand if a large majority of my group nearby gets blasted to bits and I try to be defiant, I can imagine gravity teaming up with Murphy and bringing about some item destruction regardless. But the idea as stated above would be just silly. Maybe a percent chance instead, with separate rolls for distinct item stacks?


"The goblin's wand turns to dust."

Presumably this is variation of the magic Gozag uses to turn creatures into coins when they die.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 4th July 2019, 21:17

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

Killing a monster with a wand in ways that maximise the charges left is a fun challenge.

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pedritolo, Pekkekke, petercordia

Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 20th July 2019, 17:28

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

True, but you generally want to do that whether you get to keep the wand or not, because it's equivalent to minimizing the charges they use against you.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Saturday, 20th July 2019, 18:23

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

The idea of monsters not using consumables off the floor seems good. If they are supposed to use a consumable, they can generate with it (and it gets destroyed when they die).

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 20th July 2019, 19:16

Re: Destroy consumables in monsters' inventories when they d

bel wrote:The idea of monsters not using consumables off the floor seems good. If they are supposed to use a consumable, they can generate with it (and it gets destroyed when they die).

It might be worth implementing this in timed portals to see how it works out. Timed portals are also the places where monster consumable use is most annoying - eg when an Orc Warlord reads one of the scroll of summoning in a bailey, or one of the high-level demons drinks one of the potions of haste in a wizlab :(

There also appears to be strange behaviour currently where a monster can pick up consumables on the turn you see them, but not afterwards. (I've seen this when I opened a door & a wizard was standing on a potion.)

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