Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate

[galehar]

The long awaited nerf to those 2 spells is in trunk.

Make Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate clouds less guaranteed.

Only the center cloud is guaranteed to appear. The surrounding eight
squares each have a chance of (pow+125)/225 of having a cloud.

The power caps for Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate are now 100 and 50
respectively (but Evaporate power is still doubled with some types of potions).

[bobross419]

Its as if millions of noobs around the world suddenly cried out...

[evilmike]

The long awaited nerf to those 2 spells is in trunk.

Make Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate clouds less guaranteed.

Only the center cloud is guaranteed to appear. The surrounding eight
squares each have a chance of (pow+125)/225 of having a cloud.

The power caps for Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate are now 100 and 50
respectively (but Evaporate power is still doubled with some types of potions).

Just wanted to say, I think this nerf was handled pretty well (and it's about time, too). Dunno if it's balanced yet, but it's a good step towards it, and keeps the spell nice and usable so people won't just abandon it. It's also good that the full 9 squares is guaranteed at max power, though getting 100 power isn't so easy.

[Eji1700]

I still feel like this doesn't solve one major complaint i have-
Meph and evaporate still seem like they'd be better single target confusion spells than confusion itself vs anything that lacks poison resist.

[galehar]

I still feel like this doesn't solve one major complaint i have-
Meph and evaporate still seem like they'd be better single target confusion spells than confusion itself vs anything that lacks poison resist.

It's also not very efficient against high HD monsters and very noisy. Also, just give it a try before stating what might be wrong with it. Feedback from actual first hand real game experience is much more interesting.

[dolphin]

Early game: I have to aim for the wizard or priest instead of next to him if I want to be absolutely sure of hitting him. Against groups it is less reliable, but not really less usable, you just have to cast it more, and perhaps use some S2S.

Later in the early game: Use as normal. It works mostly like it did.

Perhaps the center cloud should have normal power, and surrounding clouds have less power, in addition to being fewer. I dunno if that is codable or anything, though.

[Astarotte]

I tested this a bit and doesn't seem to hurt too much.

It's still very useful when it comes to help you getting out dire situations in the first levels of the dungeon.

[bobross419]

I just know that I'll use it in a clutch against an enemy right next to me and have the one and only cloud form right on me

I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but is it possible to increase the chance based on available squares? Not expand out to a 9x1 row, just have a higher chance in a corridor or against a wall or something. Of course this would just put another coin into corridor fighting's cookie jar. Just a thought that popped in there.

[dolphin]

Perhaps the overpoweredness of Meph/Evap isn't the spells themselves, but rather the Confusion effect. Perhaps Confusion should more like Poison for players and monsters, so yellow levels give occasional mis-movements, but dark red levels result in self-damage, friendly-fire, drowning, etc.

[dpeg]

Instead of theoretising all day about MC's shortcomings, we should just test it. The spell has been nerfed, monster AI has been improved with regard to clouds and this should have an impact.

[galehar]

monster AI has been improved with regard to clouds

No, the AI change I did was just the retreating behaviour. Clouds are coming soon.

I don't think it's enough of a nerf

Possibly. We'll test it like that for a while. If more nerfing is necessary, we'll make cloud effect depend on spell power.

[dpeg]

I meant the fact that high AI monster shun clouds? Or is that one not yet in? (To me, planned == good enough. )

[joellercoaster]

Likewise with all the others. This is a step in the right direction for sure... it's not a massive real-terms nerf, but it is definitely better. Maybe wait for more feedback from newer players?

[FailBot]

I had an interesting thought , where most interesting thoughts happen, in the shower.
Crawl only has single square target spells. The cloud spells are centered around the target square, and things like conjure flame are obviously the target square.
What would happen if mephetic cloud/evaporate(And possibly later FS/IS etc) was made to be able to target TWO squares. Then there could be a balanced step down system for determining success based on the number of squares targeted. Visual aid:

o-target sqaure
x- affected square
Mehpetic targeting as of now:
xxx
xox
xxx

Mephetic with two square targeting:
oxx
xxx
xxo

This would allow for interesting patters other than just a cloud, making it more dynamic, and encouraging diversity... I.E. flooding hallways with clouds (oxxxxxo) or creating walls of clouds that monsters have to pass through. My thoughts are to create a function that creates a % chance for a cloud to appear based on the number of clouds a player is trying to create, something like 100%(1)/90%(2)/80%(3)/70%(4) etc. This is PER square, so you can get partial results. This could be affected by spell power, and thus potentially increase the utility of mephetic cloud at higher levels. The only disadvantage I see is that it once again encourages hallway fighting because of the ability to minimize the squares needed to cover in clouds. Hopefully that makes sense.

[dpeg]

FailBot: It'd also lead to more tedious targeting, however.

What I thought about is having MC not ensure the target destination. So if you get three clouds, say, all of them could be adjacent to the target destination. I am not convinced this will ultimately help, though.

[jejorda2]

I think the player's square should to be guaranteed a cloud when an adjacent square is targeted. As it is, it's too easy at low power to use at melee range. That used to be a panic move, but now it is almost safe.

[FailBot]

While there would be a MINIMAL increase in tediousness, I feel like it would greatly improve the usability of the spell, and allow a dynamic way to tweak its balance. If I could flood a hallway with 9 clouds, I would gladly double target.

[dpeg]

We try to make players use corridors less, not more.

[thenewflesh]

We try to make players use corridors less.

Why?

[dpeg]

Because it is the default tactics. This is fine, but I see it as our job to make tactics more interesting. Orc priests, higher monsters moving past lower monsters of the same genus, slime creatures are all about doing this. You will still generally crawl back to the tunnel... but sometimes not.

[thenewflesh]

Because it is the default tactics. This is fine, but I see it as our job to make tactics more interesting. Orc priests, higher monsters moving past lower monsters of the same genus, slime creatures are all about doing this. You will still generally crawl back to the tunnel... but sometimes not.

Yeah, stuff like that is much more interesting then levels without tunnels. Especially later in the game when you get more wands of digging then you can carry.

[bobross419]

I had a chance finally to use the new Meph Cloud and I honestly can't say I really saw much difference. From time to time the square I needed to hit wouldn't get coverage, it seems to dissipate faster, and some monsters seem to resist it better... Not a major game changer though and Meph Cloud was still the bee's knees for crowd control.

[smock]

I've adjusted my meph strategy somewhat. I used to hit adjacent monsters with tricky targeting but now it's not guaranteed, so I'm less likely to rely on this tactic.

I think perhaps too many squares are being hit. Reducing power a bit would be OK.

Also, the clouds that show when the spell is cast cover all 9 squares, even if fewer squares end up with clouds. It's sometimes a bit harder to tell where the clouds really are! Might be nice to have the former reflect the squares actually covered with clouds instead of the squared potentially covered.