Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 391

Joined: Thursday, 1st March 2012, 01:42

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 12:51

Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

We have two big races. One of the biggest traits these size has is that they can wield large weapons and throw large rocks.

I understand the reason why Ogres currently have -1 Aptitude for M&F, and I do agree there are more ways to play it now. Investing towards M&F all game long also makes it feel more rewarding when you finally get there, as opposed to just taking it for granted from the get go.

Currently they have the same aptitude for large weapons - meaning if you want to go for large clubs (ignoring the fact you should really use UC as a Troll) both races will play virtually the same with them (Trolls will be the same, except better with Regen). To me this is a wasted opportunity.
If both big races have the same relationship towards their unique size trait then you are not squeezing as much gameplay potential out of that trait as you possibly could.

The other issue UC is a no brainer for Trolls currently. Giving them an alternative to UC that is not an utter joke creates more ways to play them. They will play similar, but not exactly the same. UC gives you massive firepower with the possiblity of wielding a shield, but with a big skill investment. M&F gives you big firepower and the possibility of brands at a lower XP cost, but you won't get Shields. Either way you are still a big dumb brawler, you just get an alternative that is not obviously worse than UC now - it doesn't fundamentally change the race.

If we were not comfortable with Ogres using Maces exclusively, why is it ok for Trolls to use UC exclusively?

The other weapons could stay at low Aptitude, to emphasize UC and M&F as the good options. Obviously, +3 would be too good considering their intrinsic traits. Maybe even +2 is too much, and +1 would be better. I just want to be able to play M&F Troll without feeling I am shooting myself in the foot repeatedly by not picking UC
Last edited by Pereza0 on Friday, 28th September 2018, 13:52, edited 2 times in total.

For this message the author Pereza0 has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Wahaha

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Sunday, 17th June 2018, 20:33

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 13:22

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

I replied to you on the reddit but you didn't seem to get it there so ill say it here not only would +2 apt make 0 sense on a troll (all around low apts is part of their thing and using clubs isn't) but it would also completely defy the design goal (garbage apts but regen 30% hp and claws) which intentionally gives them a very basic design goal which is to make a very linear one direction race that has intrinsic racial abilities that severely buff that direction not every race needs to have more than one option and trolls were intentionally designed not to
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 391

Joined: Thursday, 1st March 2012, 01:42

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 13:34

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

Quezel wrote:I replied to you on the reddit but you didn't seem to get it there

I thought you might want to read it again here
Quezel wrote:so ill say it here not only would +2 apt make 0 sense on a troll (all around low apts is part of their thing and using clubs isn't) but it would also completely defy the design goal (garbage apts but regen 30% hp and claws) which intentionally gives them a very basic design goal which is to make a very linear one direction race that has intrinsic racial abilities that severely buff that direction not every race needs to have more than one option and trolls were intentionally designed not to
I got it

Repeating more or less, what I said there.

I am talking gameplay, not "sense" or "their thing". I don't know Troll's explicit design goals as I have not seen them written anywhere, but I do know DCSS's philosophy. Troll having an option as good as UC doesn't sound bad to me. You are also giving up the claws intrinsic by using M&F, so the only advantage over Ogres is the Regen

Halls Hopper

Posts: 71

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 16:51

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

I agree with the OP that currently it is a nobrainer for trolls to choose UC. This is against the design goals (which Pereza0 has linked to above :)). I think it might be fair to increase all weapon aptitudes to 0. I expect UC would still be the default choice because of innate claws 3, but other options would also become viable. I think +2 m&f would be too good, probably more attractive than UC. Trolls get good Innate Abilities compared with Ogres, even if they don't go UC, because of regen, free AC, and being carnivore.

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
Pereza0
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 391

Joined: Thursday, 1st March 2012, 01:42

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 17:23

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

I do think that with Trolls UC will always be the best choice - only M&F would be able to compete.

Giving other weapons good aptitudes risks turning them into noobtraps. Imagine them giving +1 to Axes - someone might look at the aptitude table and think that Axes are good on Trolls, but in fact they are a terrible choice. Claws are superior to every 1H Axes and also every 2H Axes. I think its important to convey that these are NOT good choices and to actively disencourage it through aptitudes (I would agree otherwise)

I think +2 m&f would be too good, probably more attractive than UC.


I disagree. M&F would have the advantage of getting to max skill way faster and having more leftover XP, but you would have to deal with weapon hunting/enchanting/branding and by the end you would not be able to wield a shield with a GSC.

Claws 3 outdamages GSC at 27 Skill, so in the long term Claws beat clubs and you don't have to deal with weapons, plus you keep your Shield. So I think it would be necessary for M&F to have a positive aptitude to compete with UC. Here is a handy post from Tasonir:

fsim is a simulation which runs a trial X number of times, there's some random variance in it. Once you hit min delay the increase is pretty small and was apparently lost in the noise...

Also while blade hands will increase your damage over claws, try an fsim of statue form if you want to see it really beating GSC's ;)

edit: Got unlazy, ran a few.

Because ctrl+F fsim isn't working for me, here's some single results from f with fighting, unarmed, and maces and flails all at 27:

20 str, 10 dex, vs stone giant
unarmed: 102.0 average hit, 312 max hit, 7.5 auts, effective damage: 131.3
GSC: 108.4 average hit, 461 max hit, 10.5 auts, effective damage: 96.7

30 str, 20 dex, vs stone giant (same order as above, auts omitted, it doesn't change)
unarmed: 149.5, 523, 190.5
GSC: 136.5, 618, 122.4

40 str 30 dex vs stone giant (go go chei powers)
unarmed: 188.1, 684, 240.4
GSC: 161.6, 830, 145.1

So when going with chei, and using statue form as you properly should, claws can be around 55% more (30 str) to 65% more (40 str) than a +9 freezing GSC. Also, since you're slowed in statue form, claws attacking at 7.5 auts means you won't see double actions from monsters (unless it's something very, very fast). Shields would remove the offhand hit, but these tests were done in a melded robe/no shield.

Bonus: Necromutation, 40/30 str/dex:
unarmed 95.2, 371, 184.0. Not as good as statue but hey, decent damage still. I'd do 152.4 in base troll form, so I assume most of that damage is the draining brand, which wouldn't work in extended anyways. Ah well. I am still playing that troll lich...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8382

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 17:54

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

Pereza0 wrote:Giving other weapons good aptitudes risks turning them into noobtraps. Imagine them giving +1 to Axes - someone might look at the aptitude table and think that Axes are good on Trolls, but in fact they are a terrible choice. Claws are superior to every 1H Axes and also every 2H Axes. I think its important to convey that these are NOT good choices and to actively disencourage it through aptitudes (I would agree otherwise)
Why not just...make them into good choices? Axes at +1 would suck compared to UC or maces but axes at +4 wouldn't, same for the other weapon classes (except short blades lol).

(Trivia: when I proposed changing Og apts I proposed changing Tr at the same time, to have higher melee weapon aptitudes and lower HP.)

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Pereza0
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 391

Joined: Thursday, 1st March 2012, 01:42

Post Friday, 28th September 2018, 18:07

Re: Give Trolls +2 Maces & Flails Aptitude

duvessa wrote:
Pereza0 wrote:Giving other weapons good aptitudes risks turning them into noobtraps. Imagine them giving +1 to Axes - someone might look at the aptitude table and think that Axes are good on Trolls, but in fact they are a terrible choice. Claws are superior to every 1H Axes and also every 2H Axes. I think its important to convey that these are NOT good choices and to actively disencourage it through aptitudes (I would agree otherwise)
Why not just...make them into good choices? Axes at +1 would suck compared to UC or maces but axes at +4 wouldn't, same for the other weapon classes (except short blades lol).


IMO, because its somewhat misleading (high aptitudes usually draw people towards them and most of the time its the right thing to do).

Though crazy apt would make up for it for most of the game it will hurt you once you max out since the best Axe/Sword you can get will be worse than Claws/GSC. Just seems a little bit wonky to say "Trolls are super good at Axes because there is not a Giant Spiked Axe in the game, but you can be sure the day there is the will get way worse at them"

I think Troll can stay as the fat minotaur without being good at every weapon class. I just think you cant make weapons classes without a GSC compete with UC without looking wonky

I like your post too. Ogres have had their damage cut by a lot, they could certainly use a bit more HP (its not like it would make them too good all of a sudden)


Also, since GC and GSC are only used by Ogres and Trolls, you can also just change those instead of changing aptitudes. Problem with that is that they would both still have the same relationship towards them, and they might become too good for Ogres again

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.