Make faded altars only select from unseen altars

[PlatinumSpider]

The random factor of the faded altar can be fun but I think it would be better if the altar only chose from the list of unspawned altars. You have already decided you don't want to play under those gods and in flavor there would be no reason for another altar to that god so soon (despite rng sometimes making 2 altars to the same god on the same floor.)

This should still preserve the random nature without the annoyance of getting the one or two gods you definitely didn't want, though you still have the chance of surprise Jivya.

[Vajrapani]

Seems like this would make faded altars basically become 'flip a coin to see if you get lugonu or jiyva' once you've seen temple and the early game.

[PlatinumSpider]

It might but by that point you chose a god or want one of those two.

[Sprucery]

I like this suggestion, because it would increase your chance of getting Jiyva before Slime.

[le_nerd]

While this seems to include a meaningful choice in Abandoned Altar, here is a way to game it:

Goddess abandonment wrath does not scale equally with level for each goddess. There are a number of gods that can be safely abandoned early game (Ely, Zin, TSO, Ash, sometimes Veh for example) and ones that cannot - (Jiyva, Lugonu, Trog). So if my wish god/dess has not been found yet, I get potential extra piety for checking if the list of possible goddesses from Forsaken Altar includes only goddesses from the easy list, then worshipping.

This needs super spoiled knowledge - the low level wrath list - but is still worth doing. I'd be doing it and I dont even cast Ozocubus Armor on Octopodes!

[bel]

I don't think the last possibility is much of an issue. In virtually all cases, you would be much better off worshipping a god which you actually want to and building piety with it.

[duvessa]

I still fail to see any way that faded altars improve the game. It's never a good idea to use one, and unlike the option to pick a random species/background/weapon, faded altars are not available in 81% of games and there's no way to know in advance whether they'll be in your game or not. So if you want a "random god" conduct, you can't use faded altars for it anyway. Wouldn't that feature space be better used on a dungeon feature that's actually tactically or strategically useful, and doesn't have the potential to be a newbie trap? At least quaffing from fountains gave you some nutrition!

[Sprucery]

FR: place a guaranteed faded altar in early D.

[chequers]

In the tournament, about 4% of god worships used a faded altar.

  Code:

06:16 <chequers> !lm * t god.ecumenical
06:17 <Sequell> 1187. [2018-08-26 18:43:53] snuffy the Sneak (L3 DsAs of Wu
                Jian) prayed at an ecumenical altar on turn 1605. (D:2)
06:17 <chequers> !lm * t god.worship
06:17 <Sequell> 27846. [2018-08-26 19:59:47] CabbageHands the Cleaver (L10 HOWr
                of Zin) became a worshipper of Zin on turn 7254. (Temple)


In terms of popularity, this feels about fine, if they were a god, faded altars would be towards the front of the pack:

  Code:

06:24 <chequers> !lm * t god.worship s=god%
06:24 <Sequell> 27846 milestones for * (t god.worship): 5143x Okawaru (18.47%),
                2735x Makhleb (9.82%), 2254x Vehumet (8.09%), 2109x Cheibriados
                (7.57%), 1443x Gozag (5.18%), 1316x Sif Muna (4.73%), 1310x The
                Shining One (4.70%), 1162x Ashenzari (4.17%), 1063x Dithmenos
                (3.82%), 1043x Ru (3.75%), 953x Qazlal (3.42%), 873x Uskayaw
                (3.14%), 745x Hepliaklqana (2.68%), 745x Wu Jian (2.68%), 733x
                Beogh (2.63%), 713x
06:24 <Sequell> Kikubaaqudgha (2.56%), 602x Nemelex Xobeh (2.16%), 595x
                Yredelemnul (2.14%), 510x Trog (1.83%), 486x Zin (1.75%), 469x
                Elyvilon (1.68%), 325x Fedhas (1.17%), 254x Xom (0.91%), 168x
                Jiyva (0.60%), 97x Lugonu (0.35%)


So while I am sympathetic to the idea faded altars should be in every game (this was my original vision when I submitted the PR, but most of the dev team thought they should be an occasional option only), they are "popular enough" already and it might be good to keep them relatively rare.

IMO, the biggest problem with faded altars is that the "worst case" is so bad. There's nothing fun about getting Trog on a book start, or Gozag on a ghoul. Well, it's fun the first time. If there was a way to reduce or eliminate these "worst case" outcomes without changing how faded altars work too much otherwise, that could be a great addition.

In past threads, people have suggested showing n choices the faded altar could/can't be. I sort of like this idea, the blacklist especially keeps randomness high but gives a little information to the player. Any opinions?

[Sprucery]

In past threads, people have suggested showing n choices the faded altar could/can't be. I sort of like this idea, the blacklist especially keeps randomness high but gives a little information to the player. Any opinions?

I agree that the "Trog on a book start/Gozag for ghoul" cases should be eliminated. One way would be simple: just don't give Trog on a book start or Gozag for a ghoul. I think these exceptions could just be hard-coded.

Showing n choices is also fine by me, also the altar could just give two random gods as options from which you could choose one.

[duvessa]

I don't think the popularity of faded altars is relevant to the design in the first place, but I'm going to point out that the tournament has a banner that requires you to use a faded altar, which artificially inflates the number of people who do it. If I do the same queries for 0.22-a instead of the tournament, I get 3%:

  Code:

-> *sequell* !lm * cv=0.22-a god.ecumenical
-> *sequell* !lm * cv=0.22-a god.worship
*Sequell* 5583. [2018-08-29 00:56:16] chea124 the Skirmisher (L3 DsFi of Wu Jian) prayed at an ecumenical altar on turn 1384. (D:2)
*Sequell* 165540. [2018-08-31 07:46:41] Mohohott the Spear-Bearer (L9 MfFi of Okawaru) became a worshipper of Okawaru on turn 5538. (Temple)

One way would be simple: just don't give Trog on a book start or Gozag for a ghoul. I think these exceptions could just be hard-coded.

How would you communicate these exceptions to the player?

[chequers]

If the number of exceptions is extremely low, you probably wouldn't have to.

[Sprucery]

The description of the faded altar would be the obvious place for any additional information, imo.

[Aean]

Seems like the easiest fix there would just be having the "worst" gods refuse worship at a faded altar. Get Trog on a book background? Trog is furious at your profaning of his altar with your magicalness! Get Gozag on a ghoul? Gozag scoffs at you "You know you can't actually eat money, right?" Same way that the good gods refuse "evil" races and such.

[Fingolfin]

"As you approach the altar, you're able to discern some features partially identifying the god. This may be an altar to Trog, Gozag or Jyiva."

[Stonar]

...I think faded altars are fun. Sometimes, I don't particularly care about making sure I win the game. I also don't really like the proposal, because I LIKE that Jiyva is rare - I think it makes Jiyva and Lugonu fun to worship when you hit a corrupted temple. I like the challenge of sometimes diving to the end of Lair (or even the end of Slime!) to get a Jiyva altar. I think those optional conducts add to the variety of the game, as does worshipping at a faded altar, and figuring it out. Besides, what's more Xom than worshipping at a faded altar and getting Xom?