Should we solve world hunger?

[blueeyedlion]

Now that monsters no longer continue to spawn on cleared floors, do we need the food clock to push the player deeper? Can the player do anything else?

Apart from a few species specific features like vampires and ghouls, does hunger actually add to the game?

I think it's time to consider removing the food clock.

[RoGGa]

on http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.22/killers.html ,

tied as the 264th killer with 25 kills each:

dream sheep (22 melee, 3 ranged)
fire elemental
quicksilver dragon (8 melee, 17 ranged)
rust devil
starvation

[duvessa]

Now that monsters no longer continue to spawn on cleared floors, do we need the food clock to push the player deeper?

Yes. There absolutely needs to be a clock. Without a turn limit, the safe way to clear every level is to sit stationary in the best terrain while waiting for every monster on the level to wander there, one by one.

[blueeyedlion]

Without a turn limit, the safe way to clear every level is to sit stationary in the best terrain while waiting for every monster on the level to wander there, one by one.

Just tried that with a Mummy. Does not work.

[Doesnt]

Without a turn limit, the safe way to clear every level is to sit stationary in the best terrain while waiting for every monster on the level to wander there, one by one.

Just tried that with a Mummy. Does not work.

It will work with the monsters that wander and aren't patrolling, eventually. They won't wake up without some noise but it's safer to go after the sleepers once all the wandering monsters are dead.

That said, food is a really bad clock at the moment; it's more of an annoying limiter on how much you can use high-end wizardry spells and hungering invocations/berserk.

[Berder]

Nobody does this as mummy. Nobody would do it as any race.

[duvessa]

That said, food is a really bad clock at the moment; it's more of an annoying limiter on how much you can use high-end wizardry spells and hungering invocations/berserk.

Yeah, but the proper replacement for food is another clock, not just nothing at all. And the replacement doesn't need even need to be all that complicated.

Suppose gold gets changed like this: you start with 1000 gold. More gold generates on the ground than before. You lose 1 gold per turn, and if your gold reaches 0, you die. That's a simple, easily understandable clock, and the generation rates of gold can be adjusted per branch, or even per level, if needed. And it doesn't involve any inventory juggling.

Now go one step further, and replace "gold" in the above paragraph with "food". You have a food number, it goes down as you spend turns and goes up as you find new piles of food (by exploring new levels), and if it reaches 0 you die, and there's no inventory juggling. It works just like gold, so it shouldn't be tricky to learn, and you have a simple clock to prevent the sort of grinding I describe, and it's not tied to gods or shops or monsters or whatever, so it's easy to tune.

Nobody does this as mummy. Nobody would do it as any race.

I've done it quite a bit as a mummy, mostly in 0.5. I guess I'd better get back to Penelope.

[Berder]

Skilled players don't do this. elliptic doesn't do it, I don't do it, I don't think anybody really does it except to try to prove a point or for the novelty. Wandering monsters tend not to show up 1 at a time; you'll be fighting bunches of them anyway because you make noise when you fight, and packs wander together. You have to wake up the monsters before they will wander, and once they are woken up you can immediately safely kill a bunch of them at once, no problem, so why wouldn't you just do that?

The benefit of any kind of scumming is just so extremely small.

[chequers]

Spell hunger is still relatively significant, especially for newer players.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Notice that most gods do have piety decay which makes the "ultimate grinding" strategy not that great. Mu of Gozag is an extreme offender here of course and should not be in the game anyway.

[Sprucery]

Mu of Gozag is an extreme offender here of course and should not be in the game anyway.

Mu of Gozag should be in the game imo, they just shouldn't be able to use potion petition :)

[duvessa]

Spell hunger is still relatively significant

spell hunger has no impact whatsoever ime. i've never had a game where i got even close to running out of food.

Notice that most gods do have piety decay which makes the "ultimate grinding" strategy not that great. Mu of Gozag is an extreme offender here of course and should not be in the game anyway.

and yet there are gods that don't have piety decay, and characters without gods, so a different clock is still needed.

Nobody does this as mummy. Nobody would do it as any race.

Skilled players don't do this. elliptic doesn't do it, I don't do it

dang those goalposts almost broke the sound barrier

[VeryAngryFelid]

and yet there are gods that don't have piety decay, and characters without gods, so a different clock is still needed.

Yes and no. Mu of Gozag/Ru/Uska does not have any clock indeed.

By the way why do we need a clock? To avoid "optimal" games? Waiting 5k turns for monsters to come into view, then fsiming to find the best gear if the monster is dangerous, then retreating upstairs to change gear, then killing the monster? It is still a single player game, people play it just for fun without any prizes and I strongly believe those tactics would be very far from optimal when looking at "fun" factor. I know at least 4 players who were happy when their streak had ended or who suspended their streaks because it was not fun to continue playing this way.

[duvessa]

I know at least 4 players who were happy when their streak had ended or who suspended their streaks because it was not fun to continue playing this way.

this is exactly why it should not be possible to play that way! that's the sole and entire point of DCSS's anti-grinding philosophy: that these tedious-but-effective strategies shouldn't be possible!

[VeryAngryFelid]

this is exactly why it should not be possible to play that way! that's the sole and entire point of DCSS's anti-grinding philosophy: that these tedious-but-effective strategies shouldn't be possible!

Well, I agree with you but having a clock which kills autoexplore, autotravel and clearing every branch I can enter will make DCSS unplayable for me and I think I am not alone. For me DCSS is a game about having fun with killing monsters and checking new items, not about bringing the orb out of dungeon in the least number of turns.

[sanka]

I think that the goal is to have a clock that does not prevent normal play (with autoexplore, long travels to items, etc.) but makes waiting 5000 turns on every level impossible. Food currently somewhat achieves this, if we ignore the multitude of problems (inventory hassle, different races, spell hunger, etc.) with the current version.

[duvessa]

Well, I agree with you but having a clock which kills autoexplore, autotravel and clearing every branch I can enter will make DCSS unplayable for me and I think I am not alone.

fortunately, nobody has suggested adding a clock that harsh

[Doesnt]

With regards to dicking around waiting for monsters to come to you: I absolutely do this! I usually only do it on important dangerous floors like Zot:5 and some rune vaults, but it's a thing you can do because you tend to end the game with anywhere between 20 to 60 rations so you might as well use them.

Jury's out on if I'm a sufficiently skilled player or not, but I know other players who do who I consider skilled.

[bel]

Spell hunger is still relatively significant, especially for newer players.

{{citation needed}}

Spell hunger is not a clock anyway.

[Wahaha]

Idk personally I often come close to running out of food when I play "pure mages", often even with gourmand.

[bel]

I suspect that you probably had some cushion. Could you post three of your morgues/char dumps where you felt that you were close to running out of food? See also this thread.

Anyway, as I said, spell hunger is not a clock, so it's a separate discussion altogether.

[Airwolf]

Grinding is its own punishment.

[duvessa]

Avoidance of grinding is explicitly stated as a major design goal of DCSS.