Stack Five alternative


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 48

Joined: Thursday, 24th November 2016, 18:25

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 04:53

Stack Five alternative

Shuffle Search: Select a deck and look at its top card, then either play it or discard (destroy) it. If the card is discarded and the deck is not empty, repeat without any delay or other penalty. Costs piety, MP, food. (Subject to change: if an entire deck is thus discarded, no time is spent, i.e. the action is instant, but the deck/piety/MP/food are still wasted.)

Q: What is the purpose of Stack Five? A: ultimately, to allow the player to play a card of their choosing, and to allow the player to know that this card is always available to them. Shuffle Search achieves the same result without SF's nuisances of making the player
  • stack decks out of combat
  • stack decks to avoid piety waste rather than out of necessity
  • consider carrying/using small decks with poor cards
  • calculate the card-loss costs of stacking full vs used decks
  • choose among different stacked decks which may have identical top cards
  • etc
Unlike SF, Shuffle Search cannot guarantee the availability of a card, but the player can become increasingly sure of its availability the larger the deck is. Shuffle Search is basically a stronger, more card-efficient version of Draw Three.

Side effect: With Stack Five removed in favor of Shuffle Search, decks of the same type can be made to stack - relieving Nemelex's inventory pressure - with few other gameplay changes, namely:
  • total number of cards in a deck becomes known (which affects play only with the first few gifts, really)
  • Draw Three never involves risk of getting 1 or 2 options instead of 3
  • Deal Four never wastes cards, or, has a fixed card cost beyond the Four

Downside: using this ability would be a multi-decision single-turn action which you can't cancel for fear of leaking info or allowing rerolling... which is not great because this is normally handled in an awkward manner that disables most inputs, like Draw Three and gozag abilities and choosing your attribute every third level.

For this message the author syringe has received thanks: 4
bel, duvessa, Stairdancer, VeryAngryFelid

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 07:17

Re: Stack Five alternative

This would be weaker than stack five. With shuffle search you might go through the whole deck without finding the card you wanted. You wouldn't know whether you should stop early and settle for an "OK" card instead of "best" card, and you could run out of "OK" cards while hoping for a "best" card and get nothing.

In contrast, once you have used Stack Five on several Legendary decks, you're almost guaranteed to get the exact card you want in an emergency.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 08:34

Re: Stack Five alternative

Does anyone ever use Stack Five on anything else than escape decks? I don't. So I think something should be done about it. Shuffle Search could be a good replacement, at least I would use it on other decks as well.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 08:46

Re: Stack Five alternative

Sprucery wrote:Does anyone ever use Stack Five on anything else than escape decks? I don't. So I think something should be done about it. Shuffle Search could be a good replacement, at least I would use it on other decks as well.

Would you use it on a Deck of Destruction or Summoning to get the single card you'd like, instead of Deal Four?

Four random spells all at once are more effective than one carefully selected spell, except in the case of decks of escape. The only downside is that it uses up more cards, but Nemelex is generous with decks.

I have sometimes stacked 5 with legendary decks of Summoning, because the legendary Pentagram card is so powerful (panlord) and I'd rather not use up the whole deck at once. Other times I'll just draw 1 at a time from non-Escape legendary decks.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 10:22

Re: Stack Five alternative

Berder wrote:This would be weaker than stack five. With shuffle search you might go through the whole deck without finding the card you wanted. You wouldn't know whether you should stop early and settle for an "OK" card instead of "best" card, and you could run out of "OK" cards while hoping for a "best" card and get nothing.


Why is it bad?

In contrast, once you have used Stack Five on several Legendary decks, you're almost guaranteed to get the exact card you want in an emergency.


Why is it good?

As far as I know Nemelex is among the best gods so it can take a minor nerf and IMHO god of gambling should be ok with some gambling instead of giving guarantees.

From your other post:

I have sometimes stacked 5 with legendary decks of Summoning, because the legendary Pentagram card is so powerful (panlord) and I'd rather not use up the whole deck at once.

IMHO if some card is so powerful that players are willing to waste the whole deck just to stack five the card (and other 4 cards just as free bonus), something should be done about it. Alternative from OP is a good example how this situation can be fixed.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Fingolfin
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 11:27

Re: Stack Five alternative

Berder wrote:
Sprucery wrote:Does anyone ever use Stack Five on anything else than escape decks? I don't. So I think something should be done about it. Shuffle Search could be a good replacement, at least I would use it on other decks as well.

Would you use it on a Deck of Destruction or Summoning to get the single card you'd like, instead of Deal Four?

Four random spells all at once are more effective than one carefully selected spell, except in the case of decks of escape. The only downside is that it uses up more cards, but Nemelex is generous with decks.


Yes, I think I would use it on destruction at least. I tend to run out of destruction decks anyway, so saving cards in some situations would be good.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 12:29

Re: Stack Five alternative

Whether this is weaker or stronger than the current iteration isn't too important. Nemelex can take a nerf, if required.

The idea seems fine to me -- it would probably reduce inventory annoyances. I would be also ok with removing Stack 5 altogether.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
Fingolfin

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 16:04

Re: Stack Five alternative

Nemelex is not a first choice god when you have Okawaru, Ru, Vehumet, Gozag. Nem requires training Invo, which is a substantial point against it because it reduces your baseline power, and its benefits peter off towards the late game.

A further issue is that shuffle search is little different from triple draw. If you happen to draw 3 cards with shuffle search and choose the third, shuffle search is *worse* than triple draw, because with triple draw you got to see all 3 cards first before choosing. If you draw less than 3 cards then shuffle search is of dubious benefit over just drawing individually. If you draw more than 3 cards with shuffle search, you're being a little picky and run into the possibility of running out of cards.

Myself, I never use triple draw as it wastes cards and piety for little benefit.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 18:08

Re: Stack Five alternative

You think Okawaru and Vehumet are better than Nemelex?

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 18:30

Re: Stack Five alternative

Absolutely. Vehumet is the first choice on blaster mages, who don't need any trump cards early on, but who may need some good damage spells for lair if they are Wz, Vm, or AE. Blasters are also just way more pleasant to play later on with Vehumet's MP return. Without that you have to exit fights a lot more often or switch to heavy melee.

Okawaru gives a strong ability at 1* with little invo requirement, that roughly doubles your combat effectiveness in the early game IIRC. Finesse purely outclasses anything from Nemelex (or most gods). Okawaru is the god against which all other gods shall be compared, and usually found wanting. The main reason not to choose Okawaru every time on a brute is boredom.

The abilities of Nemelex early on tend to be similar in strength to wands with a few points in Evo, and you'll probably find enough wands. Cards are unreliable early on except for decks of summoning. The Storm card can be actively harmful because it traps you and is loud.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:04

Re: Stack Five alternative

Berder wrote:Finesse purely outclasses anything from Nemelex (or most gods).

Finesse is better than a friendly panlord or 8 hornets? Or the Tomb card? I don't think so.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:10

Re: Stack Five alternative

Yes, bel. Finesse *doubles* your damage output. If you could kill 3 orbs of fire before, now you can kill 6. Is a friendly panlord or 8 hornets going to kill 3 orbs of fire for you? The Tomb card is pretty good, Elixir is too, but Finesse can do a lot to prevent getting in those situations in the first place. Finesse also can be used *all the time* in any mildly dangerous fight because it barely costs any piety. Your character is just permanently 2x stronger.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Slime Squisher

Posts: 392

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:28

Re: Stack Five alternative

Doubling your damage output is not exactly the same as being able to handle twice as many enemies at a time. Even if you can kill twice as many in the same amount of time, the 2X enemies will still be able to do more damage to you during that time than the 1X enemies would be able to. (I'm not going to get involved in the which god is better debate, however.)

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:34

Re: Stack Five alternative

Nekoatl wrote:Doubling your damage output is not exactly the same as being able to handle twice as many enemies at a time. Even if you can kill twice as many in the same amount of time, the 2X enemies will still be able to do more damage to you during that time than the 1X enemies would be able to. (I'm not going to get involved in the which god is better debate, however.)

Presuming the enemies come at you individually (killhole scenario or just they are spread out) then it does mean you can kill 2x as many. Or if you have an axe. Or if the first 3 come in a group of 3, then the second 3 come in another group of 3.

That's actually another advantage of Finesse compared to a legendary summoning deck: Finesse plays nicely with killholes and LOS management, and with a summoning deck you have to be in the open in full view of everything, which means you are in more danger.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 689

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:40

Re: Stack Five alternative

All this power level discussion is irrelevant imo. Nem is basically unplayable right now because of inventory hassle and this proposal takes a step toward eliminating that. There are plenty of other power knobs that can be tweaked later.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 2
Fingolfin, VeryAngryFelid

Snake Sneak

Posts: 102

Joined: Thursday, 23rd November 2017, 02:14

Post Thursday, 19th July 2018, 19:52

Re: Stack Five alternative

Nemelex isn't unplayable - I used Nemelex for my most recent game! The inventory issues are overstated too, just drop some redundant decks. Stack Five is also an interesting mechanic, and I use it on Legendary Destruction decks sometimes, so I know when I'm getting Storm or Wild Magic rather than direct damage.

If I was trying to reduce inventory problems with Nemelex, I'd rather ban Evocations usage than remove Stack Five.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 139

Joined: Friday, 13th March 2015, 13:33

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 19:22

Re: Stack Five alternative

maybe not unplayable, but very annoying to play. The fact that the power of the god is modulated by inventory issues is bad design according to crawl philosophy (at least my understanding of it). Stacking decks should be the priority and all other aspects designed around it.

For this message the author gameguard has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Fingolfin

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 21:18

Re: Stack Five alternative

Nemelex can be annoying, no doubt. However, if you simply ignore most of the evocables (wands, especially), since they're mostly redundant with Nemelex, you drop the plain decks as you gain access to better decks, and you aggressively consume the decks you have (as you should); there's much less inventory hassle. 52 slots is a lot. That said, I would like anything which makes Nemelex inventory less annoying. The best way would be to goldify decks, but apparently that is not easy to do technically.

Finally, I don't understand this comment:
gameguard wrote:Stacking decks should be the priority and all other aspects designed around it.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
Berder

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 146

Joined: Wednesday, 30th August 2017, 23:08

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 21:36

Re: Stack Five alternative

I assume gameguard means stacking decks like stacking wands - when you get a new deck, you add a bunch of cards to your corresponding deck, rather than it being a new item in your inventory, rather than the typical "stacking a deck" meaning of the word.

For this message the author Stonar has received thanks:
bel

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 21:43

Re: Stack Five alternative

bel wrote:Nemelex can be annoying, no doubt. However, if you simply ignore most of the evocables (wands, especially), since they're mostly redundant with Nemelex

This by the way is a significant weakness of Nem; to the extent that it's redundant with evocables, it doesn't provide any benefit compared to just using the evocables.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 21:46

Re: Stack Five alternative

Well, Nemelex power level is offtopic in this thread. But that comment doesn't make much sense. If I say that Fireball is redundant with Fire Storm, that doesn't mean that it's a weakness of Fire Storm. Nemelex powers are much better than anything you get from wands (except digging). And you train invo instead of evo. There's little loss here, and much gain.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
duvessa

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 22:50

Re: Stack Five alternative

Well, Nemelex power level is offtopic in this thread.

Don't agree. Any change to a god should be done with respect to the power level. A god that is too weak is useless aside from novelty. This is not to say that Nemelex is too weak, but to say that if Nemelex were weakened further, then it could be too weak.

If I say that Fireball is redundant with Fire Storm, that doesn't mean that it's a weakness of Fire Storm. Nemelex powers are much better than anything you get from wands (except digging).

Your metaphor does not work because firestorm is not redundant with fireball, because it's stronger. Many Nemelex cards are no stronger than, or are weaker than, effects that can be produced with appropriate evocables. Single drawing from Deck of Destruction tends to be weaker than zapping appropriate wands, because it's a less predictable damage type and the enemy may resist it, or it may even trap you with stormclouds and hostile air elementals. Deck of Summoning tends to be stronger than evocations; I made no claim that all Nemelex powers are redundant with evocations, only a claim about those powers that are redundant.
And you train invo instead of evo

The fact you train invo instead of evo is classified under weaknesses of Nem. You used to train evo with Nem, and Nem used to be stronger because of that.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 20th July 2018, 23:44

Re: Stack Five alternative

I don't think if the OP were implemented, Nemelex would be too weak. Indeed, I think if Stack Five were removed altogether, Nemelex would still be strong.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 48

Joined: Thursday, 24th November 2016, 18:25

Post Monday, 23rd July 2018, 21:11

Re: Stack Five alternative

Berder wrote:This would be weaker than stack five. With shuffle search you might go through the whole deck without finding the card you wanted. You wouldn't know whether you should stop early and settle for an "OK" card instead of "best" card, and you could run out of "OK" cards while hoping for a "best" card and get nothing.

This is good, it's known as the sweet spot of decision-making between obvious choices.
Berder wrote:A further issue is that shuffle search is little different from triple draw. If you happen to draw 3 cards with shuffle search and choose the third, shuffle search is *worse* than triple draw, because with triple draw you got to see all 3 cards first before choosing. If you draw less than 3 cards then shuffle search is of dubious benefit over just drawing individually. If you draw more than 3 cards with shuffle search, you're being a little picky and run into the possibility of running out of cards.

Shuffle Search is flexible – maybe you want a specific card, or maybe you want any 5 of 6 cards, e.g. anything but Pain to deal with an undead threat. Shuffle Search would indeed be redundant with Triple Draw. The main reasons to use Triple Draw instead would be A- earlier access and B- lower non-card (ie piety) cost. You can eliminate Triple Draw and just have two main abilities.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 48

Joined: Thursday, 24th November 2016, 18:25

Post Monday, 23rd July 2018, 21:41

Re: Stack Five alternative

:idea: :idea: :idea:
Here’s a redesign that replaces Triple Draw and Stack Five with a Sleeve mechanic, where you can hold up to one card in reserve, and it has none of the buffering hiccups I mentioned which Triple Draw and Stack Five currently have:

* - Load Sleeve: Select a deck to move a card from that deck to your sleeve. (Instant, 2-3 piety)

The card lasts in the sleeve for only 1 turn, destructing if you move or melee or do anything except use the following ability:

Quick Draw: play the card from the sleeve. (Free)

** - Empty Sleeve: remove the card from the sleeve, allowing Load Sleeve to be used immediately again. (Instant, Free) [Or, equivalently, simply upgrade the Load Sleeve ability to work even when there’s a card already in the sleeve.]

Optionally: [*** - Sleeve is upgraded to last several turns without losing a loaded card, giving the opportunity to e.g. reposition to make better use of a loaded card.]

**** - Deal Four.

Optionally: [***** - Sleeve is upgraded to never expire the loaded card, so you can walk around for thousands of turns with Elixir or Tomb so long as you only blind-draw and deal-four.]

None of this precludes a more total redesign of Nemelex, but my main point is that this version is simple to understand and explain, extremely close to the current design, and much less fiddly while freely allowing deck merging. Haven’t considered MP costs. 

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Monday, 23rd July 2018, 21:59

Re: Stack Five alternative

syringe wrote:Shuffle Search is flexible – maybe you want a specific card, or maybe you want any 5 of 6 cards, e.g. anything but Pain to deal with an undead threat. Shuffle Search would indeed be redundant with Triple Draw. The main reasons to use Triple Draw instead would be A- earlier access and B- lower non-card (ie piety) cost. You can eliminate Triple Draw and just have two main abilities.

But Triple Draw is not useful (I do not use it), and Shuffle Search is not much stronger than Triple Draw, for a higher piety cost. So this would end up being only 1 actually useful god ability (Deal Four).

By the way, there are two cards in Deck of Destruction that are roughly useless against undead: Pain and Degeneration. Degeneration barely affects undead, only dazing them.

Regarding your sleeve idea, that seems excessively complicated. How about just retain Stack Five as it is and just say that instead of discarding the rest of the deck, it first discards 4 cards and then you stack the 5 on top.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 48

Joined: Thursday, 24th November 2016, 18:25

Post Monday, 23rd July 2018, 22:09

Re: Stack Five alternative

Berder wrote:But Triple Draw is not useful (I do not use it), and Shuffle Search is not much stronger than Triple Draw, for a higher piety cost. So this would end up being only 1 actually useful god ability (Deal Four).


The ability to peek at a card before evoking it and go "nah, I'd rather do something else with my turn", and have the chance to pick another card, is powerful and purely better than blind-drawing. ATM Piety is plenty when not stacking, and piety cost is tweakable.

Berder wrote:Regarding your sleeve idea, that seems excessively complicated. How about just retain Stack Five as it is and just say that instead of discarding the rest of the deck, it first discards 4 cards and then you stack the 5 on top.


I believe Stack Five (and 4-13 deck sizes) is more complicated, we're unfortunately just used to it. Your proposal just opens up more questions regarding implementation and extends mental bloat further. What is it about stacking you find so appealing that can't be done better without these whole stacks?

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Monday, 23rd July 2018, 22:41

Re: Stack Five alternative

syringe wrote:
Berder wrote:But Triple Draw is not useful (I do not use it), and Shuffle Search is not much stronger than Triple Draw, for a higher piety cost. So this would end up being only 1 actually useful god ability (Deal Four).


The ability to peek at a card before evoking it and go "nah, I'd rather do something else with my turn", and have the chance to pick another card, is powerful and purely better than blind-drawing. ATM Piety is plenty when not stacking, and piety cost is tweakable.

Better, but not much better, and not really worth the piety. Deal Four is a much more useful ability that can be used frequently.

Berder wrote:Regarding your sleeve idea, that seems excessively complicated. How about just retain Stack Five as it is and just say that instead of discarding the rest of the deck, it first discards 4 cards and then you stack the 5 on top.


I believe Stack Five (and 4-13 deck sizes) is more complicated, we're unfortunately just used to it. Your proposal just opens up more questions regarding implementation and extends mental bloat further. What is it about stacking you find so appealing that can't be done better without these whole stacks?

No, I am talking about when decks of a type are collapsed into one inventory item. A version of Stack Five that discards four cards, instead of discarding the rest of the deck, would work under this regime.

Note that Deal Four must also be amended in a similar manner (discard four or five cards, instead of discarding the rest of the deck).
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 00:35

Re: Stack Five alternative

Nemelex is a god of random but powerful active abilities.

Deal four means: you spend piety to increase your power. Triple Draw and Stack Five mean: you spend piety to reduce randomness.

That's it. There's nothing sacred about how Stack Five and Triple Draw work now, or whether the current level is the "right" Nemelex power level.

Btw, you only speak for yourself when you say that Triple Draw isn't useful. I use it fairly often.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
duvessa

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 01:37

Re: Stack Five alternative

bel wrote:Btw, you only speak for yourself when you say that Triple Draw isn't useful. I use it fairly often.

"I use it fairly often" and "Triple Draw isn't useful" are not in contradiction ;)
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Dungeon Master

Posts: 625

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 02:19

Re: Stack Five alternative

right, but there's an implied "because I find it useful". don't be deliberately obtuse

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 02:22

Re: Stack Five alternative

It was a lighthearted comment, implying that I don't make good decisions while playing. No offence taken.

I am not the only one who uses Triple Draw though, so it can't be totally useless.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 02:39

Re: Stack Five alternative

I have a DrFE^Nemelex going as a result of this thread. I'm playing with the idea not to train evocations, but to rely on invocations for everything. Nem is really a pain and there are so many situations where on another character I'd zap a wand, and instead I evoke a deck of destruction for very mediocre results. Decks of destruction certainly take more turns to kill things than my spells do. I would also say decks of destruction tend to be less effective than wand shots would have been, and sometimes this is even true when I deal four (which btw costs 8 MP so is not useful when out of MP).

The summons are weaker than I remembered, too. I estimate that a box of beasts or sack of spiders with trained evocations would have given me stronger and more effective summons than evoking a deck of summoning, though the decks of summoning are more common. I don't like playing with summons in general because it's incompatible with proper LOS management, and therefore exposes you to danger.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 02:52

Re: Stack Five alternative

You don't get (functionally) infinite box of beasts or sack of spiders charges in every game right from the start.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 02:59

Re: Stack Five alternative

Did you know that Deal Four costs four times as much piety as Triple Draw? (1+1d2 versus 7+1d5, so a mean of 2.5 vs 10)

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 24th July 2018, 03:13

Re: Stack Five alternative

nvm, too much discussion of Nem power level.

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.