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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 20:08

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Last edited by DavidJohnTaylor on Monday, 15th July 2019, 01:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Slime Squisher

Posts: 405

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 20:42

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

I do not understand this post. You have a problem with melee ants following a different approach than magic or hybrid ants, as all three have very different tools to work with. Is there something critically important I'm missing here?
There is always something new to learn.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1193

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 20:58

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

You might enjoy centaurs instead.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 18:03

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 21:14

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

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Last edited by DavidJohnTaylor on Monday, 15th July 2019, 01:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 21:40

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

The idea that ranged weaponry is worse on a formicid because of tunnels strikes me as obviously wrong. Ranged weapons are fine at melee range and tunnels don't require you to fight at melee range anyway.

It's true that best practices with formicid involve elaborate, excessive use of tunneling. The theory seems to be that food costs somehow limit that, which is obviously false -- hunger costs allow you to eat more chunks. This isn't the best criticism of formicids, though. If you're going to let the player redefine the configuration of walls on a level to this degree, why bother with random generation in the first place?
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

For this message the author tealizard has received thanks:
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Slime Squisher

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Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 21:47

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

DavidJohnTaylor wrote:Sorry if I wasn't clear. Formicids need to make tunnels to survive - it's their greatest advantage and helps to compensate for their weakness, stasis. Since there is no limit on digging players can make the game easier but boring by making very elaborate tunnels and luring enemies to them. This kind of "degenerate" tactic is (according to the DCSS design documents) meant to be discouraged. Melee formicids are fairly strong and can make quick simple tunnels as they want to fight at close-range. Ranged formicids builds are very weak and are inclined to make degenerate tunnels to keep enemies at a distance. If ranged formicids were buffed players would be less inclined to do so making those builds more fun.


No apology is needed, it's fine.
My understanding of the game may be lacking, but I would only really accept tunneling as a necessity in rare situations - with the same stance on luring in general. Having a mechanism that can be exploited ad nauseam is not exclusive to formicids, but it pales in comparison to the raw versatility DCSS has in terms of equipment and divine aid.
Yes, I'll concede that sometimes the only way to survive is to forcibly reduce the number of enemies able to hit your ant. But these same dangerous situations can be brought down with clever use of consumables (fog), transformation or utility spells, wands and other means. Again, if your preferred weapon is a crossbow, you can always switch to a mace when needed. Or scattershot your immediate problem at point blank. In my opinion, a versatile build is better suited to playing than a limited one with a really cheap trick to cover the shortcomings.

Come to think of it, ants also get a good stealth aptitude. Why get frustrated by bad situations if you can engage at your own discretion?
There is always something new to learn.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 23:03

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

Ranged formicid "builds" are already stronger than melee formicid "builds".

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 3
byrel, nago, petercordia

Slime Squisher

Posts: 368

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 23:52

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

tealizard wrote:If you're going to let the player redefine the configuration of walls on a level to this degree, why bother with random generation in the first place?

The answer, of course, is that Formicids started out as a player-contributed half-joke species called Dwants that people found fun enough to get merged into trunk. Unrelated designs stacking over the years, coupled with devteam turnover, leads to kludgy results. It's easy to make the argument that Fo dig cost needs to be much more significant (I did so before they were merged into trunk), but ultimately people enjoyed the species design and it was used anyway. Not everything needs to be streamlined if it's fun.

It's worth pointing out that this has been intentional project management for Stone Soup from the beginning: It's right there in the name.

If your vision for Crawl is a tight design, DCSS really isn't the flavour of Crawl you're looking for.

For this message the author Implojin has received thanks: 2
nago, petercordia
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 454

Joined: Thursday, 1st November 2018, 02:33

Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 01:16

Re: Ranged formicids badly need a buff

The question is: what does the search for that flavor of crawl look like? Critical commentary is part of it in my opinion.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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