Proposed L1/2 transformation: Aspect of Demon

[cjo]

cjo, thanks for the feedback. I haven't played the new Transmuters yet. But I'm happy to hear Sticks to Snakes getting more use - I think it's a great spell (both in usefulness and flavour-wise). Choosing what to cast on from inventory doesn't sound bad to me. How do you find Stalkers? They have FD + Evaporate, plus Petrify and Passwall which you suggest for Transmuters.

--Eino

The short answer is that I like stalkers and find them interesting, but no matter how I try, I cannot seem to get good use of Petrify and Passwall with them! I had written these spells of as interesting but useless until I tried an earth elementalist. The difference is that an EE benefits in many ways from boosting earth and transmutation. Stalkers, in contrast, already have skills spread fairly thin by the time they level high enough to learn these spells, and then have to learn yet another school of magic without picking up any offense - just some situational assistance. I almost did not even memorize Petrify when I played an EE, because I had been so disappointed in it. Then I was pleased to find it quite useful, because I already had enough earth magic to pull it off.

I do well with stalkers when I do exactly what other people evidently did with transmuters - grab those first two spells and ignore the rest of the book. The stalking background makes a fun lead-in to necromancy, then I only learn earth magic if I find another spellbook besides the Book of Stalking. It isn't for want of trying though; I actually do think they are neat spells.

[ElectricAlbatross]

Cool, is there a more appropriate place I can suggest this spell?

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ic:alchemy seems to be the place.

[Stormfox]

* Make "sticks to snakes" prompt you to select from inventory the way evaporate currently does. This is a buff because it makes the spell castable while shifted, and castable with less turns while not shifted. But since transmuters just got rather sharply nerfed, I don't think this modest buff would be too much, and it would be a HUGE convenience. There's no reason why this won't work, conceptually. Just envision the spell as merely requiring you to touch the stick in question. Even a spider can manage that.

And all of those non-Og and non-Tr transmuters who want to snakify giant clubs all shouted "Huzzah!"

[Galefury]

There is a weight issue: giant clubs are heavy. And their effect on StS is not huge. So for many non-Og/Tr casters carrying giant clubs around for StS wouldn't even be worth it. Also targeting could be restricted to wieldable items.

[Sjohara]

Thanks to cjo from here as well.

S2S should be as convenient as possible (this goes for all item-using spells). The spell is good, but I don't see a reason, power or flavour or otherwise, not to make the change. Here is how I would go about it: When casting Sticks to Snakes, first use a suitable quivered item, if any. If none (quiver empty or quivered item un-snakifyable), prompt for inventory. (And abort the spell right away if the player is not carrying any appropriate stick -- does it already?)

I'd definitely be much more inclined to cast Sticks to Snakes if it wasn't such a hassle to use, both in terms of turns and real time. Using the quiver would probably work, but it has the minor downside of making javelins a pain to use for their normal purpose. This might not be significant enough to worry about, since a transmuter is way more likely to use magic than physical ranged weapons, but Merforlk do have positive aptitudes in both throwing and transmutations...

cjo, thanks for the feedback. I haven't played the new Transmuters yet. But I'm happy to hear Sticks to Snakes getting more use - I think it's a great spell (both in usefulness and flavour-wise). Choosing what to cast on from inventory doesn't sound bad to me. How do you find Stalkers? They have FD + Evaporate, plus Petrify and Passwall which you suggest for Transmuters.

--Eino

The short answer is that I like stalkers and find them interesting, but no matter how I try, I cannot seem to get good use of Petrify and Passwall with them! I had written these spells of as interesting but useless until I tried an earth elementalist. The difference is that an EE benefits in many ways from boosting earth and transmutation. Stalkers, in contrast, already have skills spread fairly thin by the time they level high enough to learn these spells, and then have to learn yet another school of magic without picking up any offense - just some situational assistance. I almost did not even memorize Petrify when I played an EE, because I had been so disappointed in it. Then I was pleased to find it quite useful, because I already had enough earth magic to pull it off.

I do well with stalkers when I do exactly what other people evidently did with transmuters - grab those first two spells and ignore the rest of the book. The stalking background makes a fun lead-in to necromancy, then I only learn earth magic if I find another spellbook besides the Book of Stalking. It isn't for want of trying though; I actually do think they are neat spells.

I feel mostly the same way about Stalkers. Dig and Passwall feel too situational to base a playstyle around, and Petrify doesn't distinguish itself from Evaporate enough for it to be worth the extra mana, hunger, and resistance potential most of the time. They work better as utility spells for Earth Elementalists than primary spells for Stalkers. There's also no race with a positive attribute in both Transmutation and Earth Magic except Sludge Elves, who are poor stabbers (Earth Magic in general kind of drew the short straw when it comes to racial aptitudes). And worst of all, they have no real advancement opportunity. The other Transmutation spells offer little to the playstyle, and Earth Magic wouldn't be preferable to the alternatives if you weren't shoehorned into it. I always wind up feeling that I'm taking the background for just Evaporate and nothing else, which I guess could potentially be worthwhile, but isn't terribly satisfying.

[joellercoaster]

I like stalkers and find them interesting, but no matter how I try, I cannot seem to get good use of Petrify and Passwall with them!

Likewise. I really like Stalkers!

Specifically, the synergy with Evaporate is good for getting Stabbing off the ground (not that it needs much help) and vice versa, but Passwall at low levels is almost impossible to use (for me anyway) as a Stabbing tool. It's OK for setting up escape routes with a bit of planning, but it's certainly impractical. It's possible I'm Doing It Wrong though.

Petrify is a good spell, but again, doesn't train too well with the playstyle as it sits. There's no offensive incentive there (like LRD for EE), and it's a pretty unreliable escape option.

By the time I have Spellcasting up to a point where I don't care about the schools to make them effective, I have other toys.

I'm not sure what to do about all that, but it kinda seems like there's one spell school too many in there, or one extra spell (that contributes to training them or to their efficacy) missing from the book. Either than or the whole Earth Magic thing is a bust and there could just be a couple of spells in the book... hmm.

(I do disagree about people using the Tm book just for FD/Evap though - I think it's one of the best starting books in the game, in terms of utility and progression!)

[rebthor]

Currently, you receive the message "Your hands feel slithery" when you cast S2S without the appropriate items wielded.

And IIRC waste a turn, which can easily lead to YASD, especially at low level when you most need the snakes.

[rebthor]

Currently, you receive the message "Your hands feel slithery" when you cast S2S without the appropriate items wielded.

And IIRC waste a turn, which can easily lead to YASD, especially at low level when you most need the snakes.

Turns out I was wrong, at least in .9.1, casting without a target doesn't use MP or waste a turn.

[Markizxd]

I like stalkers and find them interesting, but no matter how I try, I cannot seem to get good use of Petrify and Passwall with them!

Likewise. I really like Stalkers!

Specifically, the synergy with Evaporate is good for getting Stabbing off the ground (not that it needs much help) and vice versa, but Passwall at low levels is almost impossible to use (for me anyway) as a Stabbing tool. It's OK for setting up escape routes with a bit of planning, but it's certainly impractical. It's possible I'm Doing It Wrong though.

Myself I find Passwal VERY useful for a stabbing purposes, if you position yourself accurately it can land you adjacent to the sleeping monster or at least greatly shorten the distance. It works best when worshipping Ash, but it worked great for me with NaST of Chei as well. With bigger spell power it lets you cut corners quite nicely too

Since many Earth spells are Earth/Tmut petrify IMO fits quite good