Demigods feedback and help wanted!


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 13:23

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

It would be more Xom-ish to give you a friendly permanent simulacrum or six. (Does this require "Don't explain the joke"?) Or the Butterfly of Doom from Henzell, with its paralyzing melee attack and hellfire.

Or a pet unseen horror if you don't have SInv.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 13:28

Re: Minion names and builds (Demigods)

nicolae wrote:I usually play on a Vista machine.


To get Crawl building, all you need is to install msysGit, the recommended and current version of which is here:
http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/detail?name=msysGit-netinstall-1.7.6-preview20110720.exe&can=2&q=

This will include literally everything needed to get building (which you have to do from inside the msys command line).

nicolae wrote:In the demigods patch branch, which files have the text for names and minion definitions?


Both in source/dat/database/:

Definitions: https://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/blobs/demigods/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monbuild.txt
Names: https://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/blobs/demigods/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monname.txt

The Mantis wrote:Hi, I'm Syraine in ##crawl; this being something I'm interested in, I'll help you with some text and such. In terms of Xom suggestions, I suggest a chance to have a pitiful natural holiness creature (eg. a rat) with absurdly high HD and a powerful conjurations spell (eg. Throw Icicle, Stone Arrow), dangerous non-summoning demons such as sixfirhy in packs, HD:1 Balrugs and summoning rewards, like a friendly permanent chaos spawn.


I'm worried that a Balrug could still be dangerous even with only 1 HD :) But yes, we can certainly experiment with some quite silly ideas for Xom ... I'm not too sure about about permanent ally gifts either, they are widely reckoned to be problematic from normal gods, and in this case it's not that the gods are willingly giving you gifts, but that you're stealing them from the cold, dead hands of their minions :twisted:

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 13:31

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Monstrous rats (as suggested by Mantis), animated sausages (can be done via mimic) and statues sound like fitting Xom minions to me. (The rats and the items would have high HD, spells etc. The animated statue is funny, because it is hard to kill in time.)
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Barkeep

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 13:42

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Stormfox wrote:Or a pet unseen horror if you don't have SInv.


This is the best idea ever. I like it for normal Xom behavior, too. Especially if getting SInv causes it to vanish.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 17:10

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

It would be cool if Trog names just smashed two violent sounding words together like
BloodGuts SmashKill FistKick

Also i think it'd be funny and easier to code if both parts of the could be the same XD
BloodBlood SmashSmash FistFist

Good word ideas that work together would be ones like this:
  Code:
Blood
Kill
Smash
Punch
Kick
Gut
Gore
Rip
Rage
Tooth
Mad
Troll
Fist


EDIT: Might need to watch out for KillGore, or make a special Tile for that one... basically just a troll in a suit

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 18:58

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

omndra wrote:It would be cool if Trog names just smashed two violent sounding words together like
BloodGuts SmashKill FistKick


Currently I'm just combining two short gutteral syllables for Trog names (from this line on: https://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/blobs/demigods/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monname.txt#line1245)

I might try mixing in your list of words with a low probability of them replacing either syllable, and even lower for both syllables - basically because it'll be extremely noticable when real words repeated themselves, as opposed to the random-ish syllables.

omndra wrote:EDIT: Might need to watch out for KillGore, or make a special Tile for that one... basically just a troll in a suit


I'm also considering adding an "exclusions" feature to the text system so problematic combinations can be struck out; I'm sure there are similar examples in the bits I've already done ;) On the other hand, I did have this idea of choosing the name first and letting that dictate the type of minion ...

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 23rd September 2011, 21:36

Re: Minion names and builds (Demigods)

mumra wrote:To get Crawl building, all you need is to install msysGit, the recommended and current version of which is here:
http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/detail?name=msysGit-netinstall-1.7.6-preview20110720.exe&can=2&q=

This will include literally everything needed to get building (which you have to do from inside the msys command line).


Cool! I'll have a look at this over the weekend, I think.

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 03:46

Re: Minion names and builds (Demigods)

nicolae wrote:Cool! I'll have a look at this over the weekend, I think.


How up to date is the git tutorial here? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git

I notice that it still has a reference to sourceforge but didn't crawl move to another repository a while back?

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 05:58

Re: Minion names and builds (Demigods)

nicolae wrote:
nicolae wrote:Cool! I'll have a look at this over the weekend, I think.


How up to date is the git tutorial here? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git

I notice that it still has a reference to sourceforge but didn't crawl move to another repository a while back?


It does seem a bit out of date ... you can get the Gitorious clone URL from this page: http://gitorious.org/crawl

You'll similarly want to get the clone URL from the Gitorious page I linked for the Demigods branch.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 08:11

Re: Minion names and builds (Demigods)

nicolae wrote:
nicolae wrote:Cool! I'll have a look at this over the weekend, I think.


How up to date is the git tutorial here? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git

I notice that it still has a reference to sourceforge but didn't crawl move to another repository a while back?

I've updated the page.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 18:04

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

omndra wrote:EDIT: Might need to watch out for KillGore, or make a special Tile for that one... basically just a troll in a suit


Or GoreRage... "WHY YOU CASTING FIRE SPELLS? DON'T YOU KNOW THAT MAKE GLOBAL WARMING?!? RAAAAAR SMASH FIRE MAGE"
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 21:29

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Has anyone ever suggested being able to destroy altars of religions that oppose the characters? I am definitely not a coder, but maybe make the altars count as creatures and when you start attacking they start summoning these followers you speak of. Destroying an altar gives piety for anyone with a god. I think it would be kinda cool if demigods could destroy these altars and gain invocation levels. Then you could have them get random followers kinda like the orcs do, but the chance would be with any intelligent creature. Except orcs of course. I dunno, it would be kinda cool if demigods started with 1 level of invocations and were able to get kobold and goblin followers that leveled with them. The scaling would have to be done right so it isn't too powerful but it would be fun.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 26th September 2011, 21:32

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Konebred wrote:Has anyone ever suggested being able to destroy altars of religions that oppose the characters?


Sure: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... god:lugonu and for some reasons, I really want to make this exclusive for Lugonu.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 14th September 2012, 12:12

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I have a bit different idea on how demigods should be like.

---

Basically, demigods are more connected to other gods. That means all the gods are watching you!
so without worshiping any god, your actions can please or offend every each of them

you can grow your alignment based on your action - good, evil, chaotic, etc
you can make deal with the gods

good acts
(slaying undeads/demons, heal wounded animal using heal potions, etc)
evil acts
(necromancy, killing angels, etc)
chaotic acts
(using random effect items, including items not identified)
else
killing(Okawaru), let corpse rot(Fedhas), use distortion weapon(Lugonu), etc
using magic(Sif, Vehu), Necromancy(Kiku)

by praying on a god's altar, you may sacrifice items

you can ask favor to gods you have pleased. (Items, Buffs, Temporary ability)
- you spend some favor point for this, but will also gain alignment point
offended gods will pour wrath upon you

innate abilities
1. ask for god favor(some may need altar, some may not)
2. learn abilities from gods you've pleased
ex. learn to channel from Sif(using this ability will offend trog)
(must be restricted in many ways)
3. gain alignment-based abilities
good, evil, chaotic, lawful, war, magic

---

to summarize:
Alignment - alignment based innate abillity
Asking for god favor(=making deal with other gods)
The god favor should counterbalance the god wrath

Demigod won't fear other gods very much. Not because they have nothing to do with other gods, but because they can deal with them well enough. For demigods altars will be like shops.
wrath need some adjustment, beginning from warning and small obstacles.
Need ideas on alignment-based abilities.

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Post Friday, 14th September 2012, 13:21

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

omndra wrote:It would be cool if Trog names just smashed two violent sounding words together like
BloodGuts SmashKill FistKick

This sounds like the algorithm proposed for creating Image Comics characters:
http://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/4/ ... obliefeld3

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Post Friday, 14th September 2012, 15:56

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Chokos' proposal is very close to how POWDER treats gods. It's a neat idea but I am sure that it would be unwieldy in Crawl: first, we have an awful lot of gods (for this approach, you really want one god for each playing style), and second, things would have to change every time a god is added (often, I hope!) and third, it would be an unmanageable mess on the interface.

I promise to dust off mumra's abstract followers patch. That will add demigod content without upsetting balance.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 14th September 2012, 21:25

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Other suggestions:

#1. Good gods may want ally god. They're already in an alliance, and may welcome new good deity.
They can help you when you're fighting against evil. (heal, buff, summon angel, holy word scroll effect)

#2.Fight against god minion - the reward should change.
Currently, it seems like this: [Destroy books to offend Sif -> Kill Sif's minions -> Gain new book].
This is a bit weird. If you act against magic, you'll have to gain something anti-magic. Like, being able to give anti-magic brand to your weapon. Maybe gain some XP/fame(worshiper's piety) only.

#3. Pleased gods may give you random favor.
[Win fight against Makhleb's minions -> Elyvilon's pleased -> healing pot, send permanent minion, heals you if you're rotten]
[Please Xom -> xom gives you good(random)mutation, make your weapon dance and attack you, give chaos brand]

#4. Gaining innate ability
Alternatives:
a. Ability for yourself - to channel MP, summon corpse, shout holy word, torment
b. Ability for your minions - let them berserk/haste, heal, protect from death
c. No innate ability at all

How to gain such alternatives:
a. Highly pleased god teaches you
Highly pleased(say, piety>150) god gives you the ability. you lose the ability if you displease the god(piety<100)
b. You learn to do so by yourself - based on skills you've mastered
- You are god of sword(mastered short/long blades) - sword users will follow you, you can buff them(and yourself) with extra damage
- You are god of magic(mastered spellcasting & 2 other schools) - spellcasters will follow you, you learn to channel energy
- god of defense, destruction, etc.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 15th September 2012, 01:48

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

dpeg wrote:I promise to dust off mumra's abstract followers patch. That will add demigod content without upsetting balance.


I can`t wait, I love playing demigods, I find they are almost perfect, they are just missing a little something. The guaranteed something from the gods is usually very strong and interesting, but in this case since the DG are so powerful already, they just need a something flavorful and fun that sets them apart from the rest, even if it only results in minimal XP and loot.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 18:40

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I just submitted two suggestions to the wiki: Demigods can passively detect altars (along the lines of passive dungeon mapping), and Amulets of Faith regenerate MP (channeling/siphoning external faith!) for Demigods.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 24th September 2012, 12:26

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Choko5 wrote:b. You learn to do so by yourself - based on skills you've mastered
- You are god of sword(mastered short/long blades) - sword users will follow you, you can buff them(and yourself) with extra damage
- You are god of magic(mastered spellcasting & 2 other schools) - spellcasters will follow you, you learn to channel energy
- god of defense, destruction, etc.


Really like this idea - as it feels less tied to the rest of the pantheon. My first thought was that it'd be cool to have a running tally of behaviours - with the demigod taking on the attributes of whichever god they're most closely reflecting... but it could be interesting to have the godly powers dictated by the demigod's skill set. perhaps aswell/instead of just having a certain type of minion attracted to you - you have the ability to bestow your divine gift on your disciples - war gods' minions get a beserk buff, mystic gods' minions can cast a school-dependent spell, stealth gods' are invisible etc...

don't know how much fun this would be, but might be interesting?

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 24th September 2012, 12:52

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

VargrVeum wrote:
Choko5 wrote:b. You learn to do so by yourself - based on skills you've mastered
- You are god of sword(mastered short/long blades) - sword users will follow you, you can buff them(and yourself) with extra damage
- You are god of magic(mastered spellcasting & 2 other schools) - spellcasters will follow you, you learn to channel energy
- god of defense, destruction, etc.


Really like this idea - as it feels less tied to the rest of the pantheon. My first thought was that it'd be cool to have a running tally of behaviours - with the demigod taking on the attributes of whichever god they're most closely reflecting... but it could be interesting to have the godly powers dictated by the demigod's skill set. perhaps aswell/instead of just having a certain type of minion attracted to you - you have the ability to bestow your divine gift on your disciples - war gods' minions get a beserk buff, mystic gods' minions can cast a school-dependent spell, stealth gods' are invisible etc...

don't know how much fun this would be, but might be interesting?


With demigods' apts mastering the necessary skills will mostlly never happen in a 3-runer, and 3-runers are the vast majority of games. Also some combinations will be utterly useless (god of stabbing in pan? god of stealth? god of evocations?) and some will be way too powerful (god of magic). So it may sound exciting, but is difficult (impossible?) to add to the game :(
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 24th September 2012, 14:13

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

onton wrote:With demigods' apts mastering the necessary skills will mostlly never happen in a 3-runer, and 3-runers are the vast majority of games. Also some combinations will be utterly useless (god of stabbing in pan? god of stealth? god of evocations?) and some will be way too powerful (god of magic). So it may sound exciting, but is difficult (impossible?) to add to the game :(


True - but I wasn't thinking about mastering the skill - Just using whichever is the highest (similar to the system which works out the character's title) - this way the demigod's flavour would effectively reflect and augment the playstyle the player has developed naturally. The potency of his godly powers wouldn't be reliant on his apt, but on inv/faith whatever mechanic is desired.
Wouldn't recommend a godly flavour for every apt either... as much fun as a god of traps and doors would be to play...
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 24th September 2012, 16:38

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Yeah, at the point a skill is mastered, you probably don't need the bonus stuff..
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 22nd October 2012, 03:10

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

#4. Gaining innate ability
Alternatives:
a. Ability for yourself - to channel MP, summon corpse, shout holy word, torment
b. Ability for your minions - let them berserk/haste, heal, protect from death
c. No innate ability at all


I agree with this or something similar.

I love the new piety system and such.... but the demi-god still needs a bit of OOMPH! How about gaining "god like" abilities upon level up or with piety (worshiper gain)? Similar to how the Demonspawn gets demon-like mutations on level up... We could create an ability pool and tiers just like demonspawn, except with a totally different flavor.

Tier 1 (the weakest and most common ability a DG might get upon level up) could be something like Channel MP at the cost of food, or a random Blink.

Tier 2's could be beams of destruction or such.

and Tier 3 would obviously be something worth it but with high costs.

By lvl 27 the DG would end up with 3 maybe 4 abilities and would be a mix of similar abilities other gods grant the players. This would give the DG something to REALLY look forward to and if we moderate the abilities it wont end up over powered. Plus since it's randomized, it would also negate the chances of this being too much of a buff.

Or we could give them unique abilities with VERY high costs (shout holy-word seems interesting...)

Obviously this needs to be tweaked a bit but what do you guys think?

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 22nd October 2012, 20:41

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

The whole point of demigods is that they have *fewer* special abilities than other races (and get awesome stats to make up for it). They should be made more interesting without watering down their defining feature if possible, IMO.

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ebarrett, rchandra, rebthor, sixtypoundsofvan

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 23rd October 2012, 20:32

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Ok guy, what if time! What if demigods were able to use amulets of faith to convert creatures to follow him/her? First of all, they could get an ability to "create" amulets of faith by spending piety to change any amulet in their inventory to an amulet of faith. This would cost a decent amount of piety. Now they would just drop one in front of something they want to convert. Let's say you start with one amulet of faith and want to convert Jessica. You would drop it and hopefully lead her to it so she picks it up. As soon as she puts it on she makes a roll to be converted that is based on her level and your piety level. If she fails it she is a follower until she dies, if she saves then you need to kill her to get your amulet back. Any generic monster like a hobgoblin or a yaktaur would immediately get a random name. Your followers would gain levels like normal when they kill something, and you would get piety for their kills. Anyways, just an idea that popped in my head.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd October 2012, 21:25

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Konebred wrote:Ok guy, what if time! What if demigods were able to use amulets of faith to convert creatures to follow him/her? First of all, they could get an ability to "create" amulets of faith by spending piety to change any amulet in their inventory to an amulet of faith. This would cost a decent amount of piety. Now they would just drop one in front of something they want to convert. Let's say you start with one amulet of faith and want to convert Jessica. You would drop it and hopefully lead her to it so she picks it up. As soon as she puts it on she makes a roll to be converted that is based on her level and your piety level. If she fails it she is a follower until she dies, if she saves then you need to kill her to get your amulet back. Any generic monster like a hobgoblin or a yaktaur would immediately get a random name. Your followers would gain levels like normal when they kill something, and you would get piety for their kills. Anyways, just an idea that popped in my head.


Leading monsters to amulets and hoping they'll put it on would be annoying, having to make amulets sounds annoying, demigods don't have piety,

A passive chance that sentient beings who see you would convert to your cause would probably fit the theme better (except it's already what Beogh does).

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Post Tuesday, 23rd October 2012, 22:28

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

Could be a funny thing if conversion happened when awkwardly throwing amulets at them but really, the started changes listed earlier in the thread are pretty good, someday they`ll get finished and demigods will go from awesome but a little boring to awesome and interesting.

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Post Wednesday, 24th October 2012, 09:50

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I think it would be a good idea if the enemies would convert out of awe for the mighty power of a demigod.

I would propose some sort of challenge in which you fight the monster in a bloodless manner (illusionary spells, hitting with the flat of the blade, and so on) and when the monster reach its virtual 0 hp point, it would convert. Monsters will of course fight to the death as usual, with no regards to the safety or the life of the demigod. This means that if there are other monsters in the fight, everything against them is fair.

The challenge should be harder than actually fighting the monster to the death, some in the range of having flat hits and illusionary spells do half damage and ruling out the use of evocable magic items (wands, rods, and misc) which of course would not be "illusionary". The use of such objects would end the challenge fight immediately and a normal fight would start, and there could be another evocable ability to stop the challenge like it happens when you want to stop levitating with an evocable source.

I think it could be implemented as a evocable race ability which targets a monster and enables a status flag in the right part (the same where is poison, water, and so on) in which the player can see she's challenging someone.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th October 2012, 20:45

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I created a thread for a different kind of demigod overhaul: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6108

I don't think it conflicts with this "abstract worshippers" too much, although implementing both would certainly be a lot more work and testing :) I do think the final result if balanced well would be a very interesting and unique race, however.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 05:08

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

An idle thought on demigods: Why not change the hard restriction on worship to a soft restriction? Slower piety gain and longer wrath, for example. Just throw a warning at the player when trying to worship/abandon a god. Much more straightforward than some of the proposals I've seen, and it doesn't change the game for those who wish their demigods to remain atheists. It also opens up the zealot backgrounds.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 11:41

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

It's fine to ask "why not?", but if you want to change the status quo you also have to ask "why?". For now I'll answer your "why not?" question: because each race should be intesting *and unique*. The change you suggest may make demigods more interesting, but also far less unique. Other proposals may be more complicated, but your suggestion misses the goal of making demigods more interesting while keeping them unique.

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 15:36

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

bricks wrote:An idle thought on demigods: Why not change the hard restriction on worship to a soft restriction? Slower piety gain and longer wrath, for example. Just throw a warning at the player when trying to worship/abandon a god. Much more straightforward than some of the proposals I've seen, and it doesn't change the game for those who wish their demigods to remain atheists. It also opens up the zealot backgrounds.


Yes, it does change the game for me. Because every time I die with a demigod I will know that I could have easily avoided that by worshipping a god. P.S. you might want to try playing humans

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Post Thursday, 1st November 2012, 22:50

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I appreciate the feedback.

cerebovssquire wrote:P.S. you might want to try playing humans


I genuinely can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcasm or condescension. Either way I'm not sure what warranted it.

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Post Tuesday, 12th March 2013, 21:57

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

cerebovssquire wrote:P.S. you might want to try playing humans

What is this human of which you speak? I've heard about them before, but I'm not sure where.

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Post Tuesday, 12th March 2013, 22:07

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

khalil wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:P.S. you might want to try playing humans

What is this human of which you speak? I've heard about them before, but I'm not sure where.


check under the bandages

For this message the author nicolae has received thanks: 2
ebarrett, mumra

Tomb Titivator

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Joined: Saturday, 23rd February 2013, 22:25

Post Tuesday, 12th March 2013, 22:25

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

nicolae wrote:
khalil wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:P.S. you might want to try playing humans

What is this human of which you speak? I've heard about them before, but I'm not sure where.


check under the bandages

Deep Dwarf underneath. (My second favorite)
On a more related topic, I really hope this makes it into the standard game, because it has the potential to make one of the most boring races in the game one of the most interesting.
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Slime Squisher

Posts: 398

Joined: Thursday, 1st March 2012, 01:42

Post Tuesday, 12th March 2013, 23:39

Re: Demigods feedback and help wanted!

I like the idea of having demigods gaining abilities of some sort as they progress (not a big fan of active ones though). I like the idea that for them, taking the orb and ascending means reaching Godhood (is there something regarding this in the game? I have never ascended a Dg of course).

Cant really say about the mechanics though
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