Arcane Marksman


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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 15:12

Arcane Marksman

While the Arcane Marksman is a very interesting class concept, in it's current form it's arguably the least fun background to start as, for once simple reason: it's too dependent on ammo, starting with no viable means of melee combat. Even the Hunter starts with a short sword to avoid wasting ammo on weak enemies, but the Arcane Marksman is forced to choose between training unarmed combat (and therefore handicapping their ability to deal with genuine threats, as well as reducing the efficiency of their ammo use by gimping their accuracy and damage due to under-trained missile weapon skill), wielding a random weapon in the hopes that it won't be a cursed -3 death sentence, or just hoping that the RNG will provide enough ammo scattered about that they won't run out and be unable to defend themselves. Two of those 3 options leave failure entirely up to chance, which goes against the goal of skill making a real difference, and the other option is a newb trap given that unarmed combat skill needs to be trained higher than other melee skills for the same combat effectiveness.

Also, ammo dependency severely limits the choice of deity to pretty much just Okawaru, as Gozag is not a reliable source of ammo and Trog is incompatible with the "Arcane" part of this background. Being practicably locked into a single god choice is not conducive to replay value (and sometimes a player has to survive to D:9 to find their choice of altar, which isn't realistic for archers that don't find ammo, exacerbating the luck vs skill issue).

I can think of a few possible remedies:

1) Start Arcane Marksman with a melee weapon (a +0 dagger would be fine). However, this doesn't really open up alternate choices of deity.

2) Start Arcane Marksman with a larger stack of ammo to compensate for the lack of melee weapon. This would just mitigate the issues rather than solve them.

3) Remove arrows and bolts from the game. When there was some variation in the enchantment levels / brands on these ammo, there were meaningful choices in selecting which ammo to use, but now that the choice is limited to simply using a bow/crossbow to kill an enemy or not, that choice only exists against weak enemies in isolation, and even then it's not an interesting choice. Is there any good reason why these ammo should still exist?

4) Reduce (or remove) the mulch chance on arrows and bolts. Same reasons as #3, but makes ranged weaponry a little more difficult to get started with for backgrounds that don't include them, in case that's desirable.

5) Add a spell to the Book of Debilitation to allow ranged combat without expending ammo. Ex: ["Mana Missile" level 1 Hexes/Conjuration, power cap 50. When cast MMsl status is gained. Each bow, crossbow, or sling attack while Mana Missile is active does not consume ammo and deals slightly increased damage based on spell power. Each such attack consumes 1 additional MP (checked after Portal Projectile); if you run out of MP, your ranged attacks use ammo as normal until you regain MP.] This option seems the most interesting to me, as it adds another factor to consider when deciding how to allocate skill points between ranged combat skills and magic skills, as well as adding a 3rd option to conserving ammo, and not only relieves Okawaru from the burden of being the only viable deity choice, but also gives some addition incentive to consider choosing gods that restore MP as an alternative strategy.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 19:01

Re: Arcane Marksman

Note while the problematic start you mention applies to crossbow and bow starts, sling ammo (stones) is usually plentiful enough to mitigate or eliminate the problems you purport.

Also, nearly always by the time you've gotten the chance to select a god, you have long since gotten a RC or identify scroll that lets you select a melee weapon, so Oka is not the *only* viable choice for god (I've played successful AM of most gods) as you can just roll with whatever melee weapon you're using and whatever god you want. That being said Oka is certainly a very solid choice for AM.

I do like the spell suggestion a lot though.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 19:12

Re: Arcane Marksman

You don't need to train unarmed combat to hit things unarmed.

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Fingolfin, nago

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 19:32

Re: Arcane Marksman

duvessa wrote:You don't need to train unarmed combat to hit things unarmed.

Doubly so at the beginning of the game, triply so if you have an aux attack of some sort.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 20:02

Re: Arcane Marksman

I don't mean to suggest that it's impossible to win a character that starts as an Arcane Marksman without worshiping Okawaru. It's possible to start an Arcane Marksman, throw away the bow and arrows, and just melee your way through the whole game, in which case ammo resupply gifts are irrelevant. But, I've had AM characters that tried worshiping other gods only to run out of arrows later and be unable to progress. Well, a lot of that comes down to luck, as I've had archers find 100+ arrows in the first 6 dungeon levels, and I've also had some find 0, for example. But, I can confidently say that any character that relies on arrows to deal with dangerous enemies and does not invest in arrow god gifts is at risk of running out sooner or later, losing access to the entire category of your highest skilled weapon for an indefinite length of time is a Very Bad Thing.

I also realize that's it's possible to kill things unarmed with no training. I do this routinely when I feel up to dealing with AM, but trying to do so against any but the weakest of enemies is inviting death, as unarmed damage is heavily influenced by unarmed combat skill. Species with auxiliary attacks do tend to be better off as far as that goes, but of the recommended species for the Arcane Marksman background, only Centaurs have a true auxiliary attack (Trolls have claws, but that's still tied to unarmed combat skill, so it only partly counts). As such, I don't think it makes sense to design the background around the assumption that players will have access to auxiliary attacks, as that assumption will often be untrue.

My many games as an Ashenzari worshiper have taught me to never count on finding a remove curse scroll before D:10. Sure, I usually do, but I also haven't enough times that I know it's not reliable. To a lesser extent, the same problem applies with identify scrolls. Also, unless a character has an *identified* scroll of remove curse, they can't rely on being able to switch back to their bow after wielding another weapon (unrandarts being a notable exception, but those are by no means guaranteed). Even then, having only one applicable scroll only helps if the first weapon you try turns out to be viable; otherwise, you just waste the scroll and have to hope the next attempt isn't equally unlucky.

I realize that we're talking exceptionally bad luck at this point, but while backgrounds don't necessarily provide a character with a bag of tricks that can handle any threat they might find, they do generally at least provide a solid foundation that a skillful player can reliably progress with until they find better tools, provided they successfully avoid threats that their initial kit can't handle until they find some other means. Arcane Marksman fails to do this, however, as running out of arrows shuts down their entire starting kit against all nontrivial threats. The only other background that finds itself so handicapped is Wanderer (even then only rarely), and it's a challenge background designed around the concept of being unreliable. So, I really think AM needs some kind of fix.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 20:35

Re: Arcane Marksman

Nekoatl wrote:Arcane Marksman fails to do this, however, as running out of arrows shuts down their entire starting kit against all nontrivial threats.
Cause Fear does not require arrows and deals with pretty much everything resembling a threat. Yes, it comes at the cost of destroying consumables, but it's still extremely powerful.

If you absolutely must have a melee weapon for some reason, monsters are happy to identify which ones are branded (and therefore uncursed) for you; let monsters wander the level and they'll pick up and wield weapons that you haven't seen yet. Branded weapons are never cursed unless they are artefacts or came from a wight or vault.

I agree that the ammo mechanic should be removed, but that has nothing to do with the Arcane Marksman background, and the background does not need any buffs.

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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 22:54

Re: Arcane Marksman

Wait, what? Since when does casting Cause Fear destroy consumables? Regardless, the best case scenario for Cause Fear is that it lets you fight monsters one-at-a-time, at range. In terms of preventing running dry on ammo, that at best means you avoid shooting some popcorn standing in the way of an actual threat (a job which Portal Projectile actually does better in many cases, thanks to the accuracy bonus).

Using monsters to identify branded weapons is an interesting strategy, but it seems problematic for a number of reasons. Most relevantly, a goblin with no weapon falls in the category of monster that is reasonable to fight barehanded, whereas a goblin with a weapon falls in the category of something that needs an arrow through the eye. So, passing turns to increase the number of armed monsters to encounter seems rather counterproductive, especially if there don't even happen to be any branded weapons generated on that floor (which you obviously can't check before committing to that strategy).

I agree that the ammo mechanic is a problem that goes beyond the Arcane Marksman background in scope, but as the background which is most impacted by that mechanic, it's wrong to say there's no connection. I agree that AM doesn't need a *buff*. What it needs is a *fix*.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 23:05

Re: Arcane Marksman

Feared monsters will use scrolls of blinking and teleportation, destroying them.
Nekoatl wrote:Regardless, the best case scenario for Cause Fear is that it lets you fight monsters one-at-a-time, at range.
No, the best case scenario for Cause Fear is that it gets rid of the monsters. If you find a monster you can't kill, that's okay because you can just avoid it. If it's faster than you, that's okay because you can just cast cause fear and still avoid it.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 00:48

Re: Arcane Marksman

Killing monsters is a better outcome than driving them away. For one thing, it means you won't have to deal with them again later, and for another, it actually yields XP (and sometimes even useful items). Granted, the most important use of Cause Fear is as a panic button, but evading monsters won't make a character stronger in the way that killing them will. If a monster is too strong to fight, then by all means avoid it, but that can't be the go-to strategy for dealing with monsters in general.

I guess, in theory, you could just run around the dungeon spamming Cause Fear at monsters to avoid having to expend ammo to defeat them, but that's really not a viable strategy in practice. For one thing, Cause Fear isn't even available until level 4, and even then unless magic skills have been heavily focused, it will suffer from nontrivial spell failure, significant chance to be resisted even when successfully cast, and spell hunger which, without actually killing monsters to acquire chunks, would quickly wear down one's supply of rations. Not to mention that avoiding monster kills would mean less skill XP to allocate, exacerbating those problems. Also, any unsuccessful casting attempts would mean 4 wasted MP, potentially creating deadly situations where enemies need to be chased away but can't be due to lack of MP. If you run out of ammo, you can spam Cause Fear to try to buy some time and hope that you find a stack before you find a threat that Cause Fear can't deal with, but that's a bottom-of-the-barrel desperation attempt.

bel

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 00:54

Re: Arcane Marksman

I find it weird that you say that a possible fix would be to give them a +0 dagger. You can find a comparable weapon to a +0 dagger on D:1 (that's what mages, do, for example: pick up a weapon and use it). What's the problem, then?

If I understand correctly, you're saying that picking up a dagger and using it is dangerous because it could be cursed? Well, you're almost guaranteed to find at least one weapon you know is uncursed or a remove curse scroll by probably D:2 or D:3. In the worst case, you can just use an identify scroll on a weapon.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 01:29

Re: Arcane Marksman

If a mage wields a weapon and it turns out to be cursed -3, they're not locked out of using spells to defend themselves. An AM who does this is locked out of using their bow, and their selection of spells is designed to be used in conjunction with their bow, so they can't rely on spells alone to survive until they find a remove curse scroll. That's the problem the starting +0 dagger option is meant to address.

While it is true that in the average case a scroll of identify/RC or a pseudo-identified weapon will be found in the first few levels of the dungeon, games where that doesn't happen, while distinctly a minority, are frequent enough that I object to the phrase "almost guaranteed". Moreover, assuming that replacement ammo isn't generated early on, the AM needs to be rather miserly with their starting ammo to avoid running out, which means that they need to kill enemies without expending ammo as early and often as possible. Mages (with the arguable exception of summoners) don't need to avoid using their spells as early and often as possible, so they can afford to wait until they find a means of dealing with cursed weapons.

bel

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 02:27

Re: Arcane Marksman

I don't really object to giving AM a +0 dagger (I think curses are a bad mechanic anyway). However, when was the last time you found neither a remove curse nor an identify scroll before D:3 or D:4? I don't think it happens very much.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 03:00

Re: Arcane Marksman

More meaningfully: what monster are you going to kill with a +0 dagger that you couldn't kill unarmed? I don't think giving Arcane Marksman a +0 dagger would change anything.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 03:21

Re: Arcane Marksman

If memory serves, I played a game with no remove curse or identify scroll until ~D:6 earlier this week, but I agree it's not a common occurrence.

Like, for example, leopard geckos. True, the dagger only has 1 more point of base damage than unarmed combat (though that is a 33% increase, so it's not nothing), but that +6 accuracy bonus, while all but meaningless in the hands of a short blades expert, makes a big difference to the unskilled. Sure, Corona helps, but not as much as Corona + the dagger's accuracy bonus.

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 03:48

Re: Arcane Marksman

Nekoatl wrote:If memory serves, I played a game with no remove curse or identify scroll until ~D:6 earlier this week, but I agree it's not a common occurrence.

Like, for example, leopard geckos. True, the dagger only has 1 more point of base damage than unarmed combat (though that is a 33% increase, so it's not nothing), but that +6 accuracy bonus, while all but meaningless in the hands of a short blades expert, makes a big difference to the unskilled. Sure, Corona helps, but not as much as Corona + the dagger's accuracy bonus.

For comparison, with no skill, a +0 dagger is around 50% more damage on average than an unarmed (no aux, no shield) attack against a D:1 critters without corona. Not that that means a significantly different amount of risk.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 04:01

Re: Arcane Marksman

It is with Corona as well.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 04:18

Re: Arcane Marksman

Okay, if a dagger deals 50% more dps on average than unarmed combat, that means that monsters will survive combat 50% longer on average with a player fighting unarmed than with a dagger, in other words they have 50% more turns to reduce the player's HP to 0 before they die. Seems plenty significant to me, especially for fights that last several turns.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 05:53

Re: Arcane Marksman

Also, Arcane Marksman is a sexist, specieist name, and should be changed to Arcane Marksindividual.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 06:10

Re: Arcane Marksman

See, I can't think of a monster that I would melee with the +0 dagger but wouldn't melee with unarmed combat. For a leopard gecko, I would be using bolts even if I had the dagger. I would be meleeing a rat even without the dagger. I don't think starting with a melee weapon would change AM's gameplay, unless it were such a powerful melee weapon that it could compete with a hand crossbow.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 07:59

Re: Arcane Marksman

I can respect that. There is still a risk in engaging in melee with a leopard gecko using a dagger, it's just somewhat less of a risk than going in barehanded. Personally, I consider losing a character to a melee fight on D:1 to be preferable to losing a character later on due to running out of ammo, so the threshold of risk I'm willing to take to conserve ammo is a little higher than what I would otherwise accept. But, even so, I consider taking a leopard gecko barehanded to be going too far. Of course, it also depends on whether or not I've leveled up, found any auxiliary armour pieces or useful rings, trained up a level of fighting, found any extra ammo, etc. Still, my priorities may be a little different than those of the average player, and even I don't think the dagger is the best option to deal with the ammo issue... it's just better than nothing.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 22:49

Re: Arcane Marksman

Running out of ammo does not remotely resemble a loss condition, especially not for AM. You can avoid monsters you'd need ammo to kill until you find more ammo (or a different way of killing them). And, since we're talking about AM, you know what spell is really good at letting you avoid monsters?

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 15th July 2018, 23:55

Re: Arcane Marksman

I consider spamming Cause Fear to avoid monsters while hoping to find ammo from the RNG god to be comparable to getting banished to the Abyss in the early- or mid-game. It's just a question of whether you luck into salvation (ammo or the exit) before you find yourself surrounded and out of panic buttons. Neither situation is guaranteed to result in death, but both situations should be avoided (see my previous post regarding over-reliance on Cause Fear). The Abyss, however, at least is kind enough to generate an exit for you if you kill enough enemies. The same can't be said of ammo, unless you get lucky enough to find a very specific type of enemy that carries the type of ammo you need. And again, there's nothing that forces a player who starts as an Arcane Marksman to even use missile weapons at all, but if you're going to invest the skill points to shoot competently, you should want to be able to actually use those skills, as losing access to that chunk of skill XP significantly gimps the character.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 16th July 2018, 20:02

Re: Arcane Marksman

Stupid idea: why not spawn AM with a single remove curse scroll?

Hell, why not start everyone with a remove curse scroll? Just one, to make early game wield-IDing less immediately fatal when you need to scoop a weapon off someone to start the game with. You've already got a good, nearly guaranteed, chance to pick one up in the first few floors of the game, so it's not a huge power boost to anyone, it's not like they're terribly rare. Warrior classes that start with a good weapon can use it to take off cursed rings or amulets, the other main curse you're likely to run into early.

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Post Monday, 16th July 2018, 22:12

Re: Arcane Marksman

Nekoatl wrote:wielding a random weapon in the hopes that it won't be a cursed -3 death sentence, or just hoping that the RNG will provide enough ammo scattered about that they won't run out and be unable to defend themselves.

the starting ammo given to an arcane marksman is generally enough to last at least 4 floors, unless you are playing unusually (perhaps using ammunition in inappropriate fights, e.g. very weak or very out of depth monsters.) by that time you either have remove curse scrolls available for a melee weapon or access to the slow spell to reduce the number of encounters where you need to use ammo

Nekoatl wrote:Also, ammo dependency severely limits the choice of deity to pretty much just Okawaru, as Gozag is not a reliable source of ammo and Trog is incompatible with the "Arcane" part of this background. Being practicably locked into a single god choice is not conducive to replay value (and sometimes a player has to survive to D:9 to find their choice of altar, which isn't realistic for archers that don't find ammo, exacerbating the luck vs skill issue)

the crossbow is the only starting option that can realistically force the player to stop using ranged attacks until they get a rune; slings and throwing have stones and centaurs spawn for bow users. however, the crossbow is also a strong starting option since it has a lower skill requirement to reach mindelay

besides, several gods provide their own ways to kill monsters (Nemelex, Elyvilon, Kiku, Fedhas, Hep, Vehumet to a certain extent) so it's not clear why okawaru is the only viable god for AM, given that ammo is not scarce after you get a rune. okawaru might be the only viable god for AM if your plan on playing AM is to use your launcher against everything

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 16th July 2018, 22:46

Re: Arcane Marksman

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Hell, why not start everyone with a remove curse scroll?
so that curses are actually relevant sometimes

you might as well just remove non-Ashenzari curses altogether if you're going to do that

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Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 05:52

Re: Arcane Marksman

Nekoatl:
1. You're absolutely right. AM is absolute trash, one of the worst possible backgrounds. A lot of streaks get ended by AM. If not for CK it might be the single worst background for streaking. It combines the limited ammo of Hunter (itself a poor background) with low physical stats and skills, which means you do low damage.
2. The spells are: Corona, Slow, Inner Flame, Portal Projectile, Cause Fear, Leda's Liquefaction. Trash except for Cause Fear and PProj in late game. Be aware that getting Cause Fear to <10% fail is probably not worth the XP unless you have good hex aptitude, and it may all be wasted if you find a nice branded heavy armor. Put that XP into evocations or invocations instead, and you can actually kill dangerous things instead of just making them go away for a bit.
3. Yes, it's a bit of a gamble with AM to plan to kill everything with projectiles because you might run out. Of course, you should pick up other ranged weapons and melee weapons and use those as well to conserve ammo.
4. If you do want to kill everything with projectiles, you're right that Okawaru or Trog are the safe gods. Longbows and arbalests are sometimes very scarce until late, so it's a gamble to skill up your starting ranged weapon too much.
5. The safest and most effective way to play AM is to realize that it's a lame Fighter (just like 70% of the starting backgrounds in this game). Find a melee weapon with a decent brand or enchant, then skill it up. Put all points in STR. Aim for heavy armor, a one handed weapon, and a shield. Tab tab tab.
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