Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1


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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 16:31

Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Vampires have been quite the topic of discussion recently, including their complete removal. However, I have a simpler request: Give them access to batform at level 1.

It's not like Draconians where they get access to it at level 7, a decent chunk into the dungeon. It gets unlocked on D:1. And not having it makes vampires a pain to play early on, when you have to resort to pillar dancing rather than running. Having it unlocked at level 3 feels very arbitrary.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 17:02

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

The argument about "arbitrary racial unlocks" is true of literally all the races...meaning that it also doesn't hold water.

Early game vampires, for me, are quite easy because you can get a massive advantage, blood is plentiful, and if you are playing a favorably background like En you are leaps ahead of most games. If you have trouble, a VpEn can literally just WAIT until they go bloodless before venturing out -- the stealth at that point will have you stabbing everything you see.

Besides, XL 3 on a vamp will be nearly hit on D:1, and essentially guaranteed on D:2 unless you have to skip it because of uniques. So you'll pretty much have this all of 5-10 minutes into the game...aka, by the time you run into anything like Sigmund. Of the things there are to complain about with Vamps (Food Clock minigame, too many different stages of satiation, not filling their niche better than alternatives), Bat Form being obtained at level 3 is not one of them.

(On the side note, this sounds like a "I keep running into annoying Gnolls on D:1 or ran into a unique on D:2" inspired thread rather than a legit thoughtful suggestion).

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 04:06

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

The fact that you get it on D:1 is the reason that it's annoying: you get access to it almost immediately anyway, it's just bizarre that it you aren't allowed to use it on that first floor. I can't think of any reason why having it from the get-go would be problematic.

It could be argued that waiting until bloodless is its own issue, but I'm not looking to cover that in this thread.

I chose this specific thing because (assuming my understanding of lua is correct) it requires a single number to be changed, and doesn't impact anything significantly balance wise. It's just that not having access to batform until XL3 doesn't really present any interesting drawback.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 04:48

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

I can see your point, but turning into Spriggan+ on D:1 negates some of the starting threats. To be quite honest, this isn't much of an issue one way or the other -- getting it at start would certainly be useful, but not notably more useful.

Honestly, I think you're just pointing out the larger issue that Vampires are really oddball and need to be reworked. Fun in many ways, but clunky in many others.

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 08:56

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Alphaeus wrote:Honestly, I think you're just pointing out the larger issue that Vampires are really oddball and need to be reworked. Fun in many ways, but clunky in many others.

Funny, I'm pretty sure he is simply pointing out that vampires might as well get batform at XL1 as they get it anyhow on D:1 at XL3, and doesn't even broach the broader issues of vampire game design.

As far as other races...yeah some of them level up as they go (demonspawn, draconians fx) but others come pretty much as is concerning racial abilities at XL:1 (minotaurs, centaurs, trolls, ogres, octopodes, merfolk etc) so the argument can be made both ways. From a design perspective, is there an advantage to making them wait for batform? It's pretty much a get-out-of-jail-free card with the speed and stealth bonuses, so you can argue that letting them have it from the start removes a significant challenge to the early game, similar to how bookstarts have to wait to XL:3 before getting their first power boost (conjure flame on FE for example).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 09:06

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

I think making vampires get bat form at XL 1 will result in players pressing 5 several times immediately at turn 1 to get to hungry satiation status before exploring.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 10:58

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Alphaeus wrote:
Early game vampires, for me, are quite easy because you can get a massive advantage
What is this massive advantage you speak of? The only thing I can think of is fangs, and it really isn't a massive advantage.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I think making vampires get bat form at XL 1 will result in players pressing 5 several times immediately at turn 1 to get to hungry satiation status before exploring.

You can use batform when satiated.

Vinestalker regen 1 at lvl 4 is also a good candidate for an ability that should be given at lvl 1. Even though it takes a while longer than lvl3, it feels like VS should start with that ability.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 20th April 2018, 16:27

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Vinestalker regen DID used to be at level 1. I suppose the thing there is that on d:1, where most monsters only do one, maybe two points of damage, the regen has a disproportionately strong effect. Lv4 doesn't generally kick in until late d:2 or into d:3, at which point things are already quite a lot different from lv1. Anyway this isn't technically on topic so I digress

Anyway, lv1 batform turns vamp start into spriggan start. It only really changes D:1, so it's not a big deal either way. I guess making it a gained-on-level skill helps remind a new vampire player they have a bat form to use, though? It's really the least concerning part of Vampire, so it feels weird to talk about changing Vamp without bringing up any of their far more glaring issues.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 21st April 2018, 04:30

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Plantissue wrote:
Alphaeus wrote:
Early game vampires, for me, are quite easy because you can get a massive advantage
What is this massive advantage you speak of? The only thing I can think of is fangs, and it really isn't a massive advantage.


The ability to go bloodless. If I want to play a vampire, I'm playing Stabby McStab. I can usually go bloodless somewhere on D:2 (sooner if I'm having to juggle D:1 gnolls or the like), and Thirsty even sooner. rPois/Poison Immunity is priceless at those super low levels, IMO; +50/+100 stealth means you can pretty much stab anything...and paired with a +5 stealth apt you are nearly unstoppable.

Bat Form comes online right when you are likely to run into a few uniques that may be troublesome, and with that the early-game becomes a cinch.

Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 21st April 2018, 20:49

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Sorry, but writing as if you are pitching a ponzi scheme, in a exaggerated hyperbole isn't a good way to convince me of anything.

In any case, if bloodless was that good, then you would automatically sit on entrance till bloodless, rather than waiting some random point on D:1 or D:2. +50 stealth is 3 about levels stealth skill, and about 7 levels of stealth skill. Octopodes for instance have an automatic and permanent +50 stealth and +4 stealth skill, but you aren't exactly singing their praises.

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 22nd April 2018, 03:07

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Plantissue wrote:Sorry, but writing as if you are pitching a ponzi scheme, in a exaggerated hyperbole isn't a good way to convince me of anything.

In any case, if bloodless was that good, then you would automatically sit on entrance till bloodless, rather than waiting some random point on D:1 or D:2. +50 stealth is 3 about levels stealth skill, and about 7 levels of stealth skill. Octopodes for instance have an automatic and permanent +50 stealth and +4 stealth skill, but you aren't exactly singing their praises.


???

I don't bother waiting because starting with as an En on a stealthy character always makes D:1 a breeze, and usually D:2. I have waited before, but realized that I really didn't need to.

You also seem to ignore rPois as a valuable assset.

Also, this discussion has nothing to do with Octopodes, but if you mention them, D:1-D:2 is super easy for all my Octopodes as well, also largely because of stealth (and constrict).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 22nd April 2018, 19:18

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

Alphaeus wrote:
Plantissue wrote:Sorry, but writing as if you are pitching a ponzi scheme, in a exaggerated hyperbole isn't a good way to convince me of anything.

In any case, if bloodless was that good, then you would automatically sit on entrance till bloodless, rather than waiting some random point on D:1 or D:2. +50 stealth is 3 about levels stealth skill, and about 7 levels of stealth skill. Octopodes for instance have an automatic and permanent +50 stealth and +4 stealth skill, but you aren't exactly singing their praises.


???

I don't bother waiting because starting with as an En on a stealthy character always makes D:1 a breeze, and usually D:2. I have waited before, but realized that I really didn't need to.

You also seem to ignore rPois as a valuable assset.

Also, this discussion has nothing to do with Octopodes, but if you mention them, D:1-D:2 is super easy for all my Octopodes as well, also largely because of stealth (and constrict).

But your stealth rating is has very little impact on how easy it is to play an Enchanter...
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2018, 05:19

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

@Siegurt

True, but +4 apts also helps get starting spells online fast.

Anyhow, I think this has somehow gotten off the original point I was making that Vampires have a lot of things going for them to make them strong...they are merely put together in a really, REALLY awkward manner. Thus, the OP's single issue is covered by the umbrella of "Vampires have good things in borked composition."

Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2018, 20:56

Re: Give Vampires the Ability to go Batform from level 1

The crux of your terribly bad argument that vampires have a massive advantage at start is that you will steadily dripfeed justifications to your assertions one after another. First you say it is because of bloodless stealth bonus. Only that it isn't useful till D:2. Then it is their stealth skill, only that you have to be an enchanter as well. It's a strange assumption you are making that a vampire will always have an Enchanter start. You act as if there are no other backgrounds.

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