Part 2: Ally god, Yred

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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 174

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 15:46

Part 2: Ally god, Yred

This thread is inspired by some of the things I've seen floating around. It is Part 1 of two threads (sister thread here) because I have noticed that ally-gods (and allies in general) tend to get a bit of flak now and then...and for good reason.


Again, like with Part 1, I love the theme of this god. Cool AF. But we have to admit there are problems here, so let's look at them.

1) Allies. Simply having allies is a problem often, and the problem with Yred is that he is "yet another" permally god. Beogh ostensibly takes the title for the permally god who stays relevant the whole game, even if you go extended (although there are problems, see that thread). Yred, on the other hand, just grants powerful allies. This would be fine if they were, say, all holy beings -- that would arguably be OP, actually. But undead -- especially the ones in question -- are simply too weak to be of great use in the late-game aside from the fact that collateral damage is always acceptable.

2) Spells, but Invocations! Yred literally grants necromancy abilities ala invocation rather than spells. First off, these aren't even the best abilities. Animate Skeleton/Animate Dead are powerful early on and still useful in branches that contain corpses. The problem is that by late game, though, most of your enemies won't leave corpses (or not enough to be worth it). Secondly, is there actually logic to offering a spell as an invocation straight up? Even Mak's invocations are randomized so that it isn't exactly a single rebranded spell.

3) Expiration. We have gods that are simply weak, gods that are odd, and at least one god that is freaky (looking at you, Xom). There is one factor, though, that I see across the board -- they all remain relevant (more or less)...or at least about as relevant as they ever the late game. Yred, however, becomes more or less totally moot. Most of your abilities with him will be worthless, and your allies will be mostly outmatched. Can you win with Yred? Of course, I've watched people do it. But is it practical to win with Yred? Not really. By late game you are essentially an atheist that has sporadic undead allies. Even mighty Enslave Soul will eventually be outmatched by the simple virtue of the fact that no one ally will be able to last through all of extended unless you seriously get into micro-ing.


Now, the point of this thread is simple: discussing possible ways to improve Yred.

Things that are not the point of this thread:

1) Debating if he should be improved -- while that is a feasible question, in threads like this it tends to hijack potential discussion

2) "Dead-end" suggestions -- just saying he needs to be removed, or that there shouldn't be allies is merely a statement, not a workable solution. If you think he should be removed, explain how an equivalent god might be created; if he shouldn't do much with allies, give plausible alternatives.


So, my own two cents:

Personally, I don't feel like Yred can be improved. If I want allies, a non-racist Beogh would be ideal, since the allies will eventually be more powerful, more reliably, and totally relevant...and Smiting is ALWAYS relevant. If I want powerful invocations do to damage and get allies, I'll go with Mak or Qaz, both of whom do that job infinitely better (Qaz's allies are meh, but occasionally useful) and are actually reliable instead of becoming generally moot in the late game. Yred currently fills a slot thematically that is better filled by Kiku -- with Kiku you can get corpses to use for zombie allies; you have the actual spells instead of invocation versions; you get a ton more Necromancy spells (including the ones you actually want to have late game); PLUS you get immunities/resistances that are really, really helpful lategame.

Quick flavor support that Yred is trying to jive in on Kiku's game:

[quote=Flavor text]Kikubaaqudgha is a terrible Demon-God, served by those who wish to indulge in the powers of death.[/quote]
[quote=Flavor text]Yredelemnul the Dark is a god worshipped by those who seek powers over death and the undead.[/quote]
Pretty much the EXACT same tagline.

Thus, instead MY opinion on this (not at all saying this is 100% the answer, just what I think is best) is to either give Yred the axe, or merge him with Kiku. Personally, I'd prefer a merge, so I'll run through what we'd keep from Yred, ditch, or replace.

1) Allies...Yred's core ability...but would a Kiku merge actually need these? I mean, of course anyone worshipping Kiku could use them, but on at least some builds (i.e. VpEn^Kiku) allies might just get in the way. As it stands, receive dead allows use of Animate Dead (if you don't plan on casting Necromancy, you wouldn't be worshipping Kiku) and Simulacrum, and until the day we put the Food Clock in the grave having edibles on demand is a useful backdoor. Overall, since the allies aren't as relevant end game ANYWAY, I would say ditch these in a merge. Trog, TSO, Mak, Qaz and Fedhas all give allies on demand; Jivvy, Nem, and Gozag give allies kinda-sorta-in-a-way via Slimify, various cards, and bribery; Hep and Beogh grant permallies. Necromancy and Summoning both give tons of ally options, as does evocations. We don't need more allies.

2) The Spells-not-spells would be totally moot. That said, one of the temptations of Yred early/mid-game is being able to do necromancy stuff without having to cast necromancy. What I think would go great on Kiku is an ability like Vehumet's "Aid" that passively reduces spell-fail by 33% for certain Kiku's case, it would be spells of the Necromancy school. Between resisting miscasts and reducing spell-fail, the entire school becomes more accessible overall. That would enable races that typically don't cast much to consider actually using Kiku because spells would be a bit more accessible.

3) Pain Mirror and Drain Life are both offensive damage-dealing invocations. Kiku allows you to use Torment, which is really powerful damage dealing invocation (especially when you are resistant to it ala Kiku anyway). ALL of them become more or less moot by the endgame/extended lategame, so this is a coin-flip about which ones are actually more useful. I personally would prefer drain life to Torment merely for the healing aspect, so I would say replace Torment with Drain Life. You could add Pain Mirror if you like, but the piety cost on a god that gives scaling (valuable) resistances isn't as optimal.

4) Enslave Soul is, truly, rather awesome if used on the perfect creatures. Everything in me says that I'd want to keep this in a merge, but I have to go back to point 1 in this solution and realize that we don't need more allies in this game. As it stands, Beogh has a version of this anyway, and if Beogh was non-racist then Resurrection would literally be a completely better (or mostly better) version of Enslave Soul. So, don't keep Enslave Soul.

In this solution, Yred is essentially getting the axe, but with a few adjustments to Kiku (and Beogh) to fill a bit of what little uniqueness Yred had.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 127

Joined: Friday, 13th March 2015, 13:33

Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 17:02

Re: Part 2: Ally god, Yred

giving piety on demon kills and reducing piety cost of pain mirror should be fine. It would turn him into a god of pain mirror and enslave cerobov in extended. Not amazing, but not useless considering yred is the single strongest god in a 3 rune game.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 174

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 17:09

Re: Part 2: Ally god, Yred

gameguard wrote:giving piety on demon kills and reducing piety cost of pain mirror should be fine. It would turn him into a god of pain mirror and enslave cerobov in extended. Not amazing, but not useless considering yred is the single strongest god in a 3 rune game.

Interesting concept, but the question behind that is 1) do we want a god who is merely "spam one gimmick" as opposed to a full package? 2) the fact that Yred is really strong in a 3-rune game suggests that while he is underpowered in extended, having "yet another" ally factory is a bit OP in 3-rune.

That said, I do totally agree about both of your points. If Yred is merely reworked, he needs more ways to reliably gain piety and his best offensive invocation needs to not be a complete piety drain.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 174

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Thursday, 19th April 2018, 18:01

Re: Part 2: Ally god, Yred

Additional clarification:

Please feel free to post any thoughtful material intended to further discussion, even if it disagrees with the basic premise of this post (i.e, changing Yred)

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