Bucklers and 2H weapons


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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 13:49

Bucklers and 2H weapons

So, again, this is coming from my DnD 3.5e/Pathfinder perspective.

On most creatures, wearing a buckler does NOT prevent you from also wielding a 2H weapon. The drawback is that you lose some of the defense (not all, just when you're attacking).

Now, DCSS mechanics don't precisely function like DnD, so just making this a thing wouldn't work (and it would tread on the toes of the Formicid). So, here are my thoughts:

1) Allow any medium-large (though not Big) race to wield a 2H with a buckler

2) When doing this, you lose XYZ SH, reduced by increasing your shield skill.

3) The encumbrance is treated like a medium shield instead of a buckler.

4) To get back your SH and reduce the encumbrance you have to train to shield skill 15.


The Formicid would retain the benefit of not having a penalty for this, as well as being able to use ANY shield with a 2H weapon. The reason I think this is viable is that it makes the choice between 2H and 1h+shield a bit more meaningful. No longer are you bound and tied to thinking, "Well, I want reflection but my piddly 5 SH with my 2H isn't going to reflect much, so I'd better go 1H with a shield so I can defend myself better," or vice-versa. Now you can weigh the options of doing straight 2H, putting 15 skills into shield (for a 3-rune this is a big choice...for 15 runes we all know that XP is a much more relative concept anyway) but having less defense, or going for full shields+1H and sacrificing damage.

Thoughts?

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:12

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

So you're proposing to get 15 skills to get something like 5ish SH while having 2hander? To better use a weak amulet? With the side effect of creating some more caveat on an already convolute and obscure thing? (shield)

Why shouldn't one put 15 that skill in dunno necro o summoning or evo and have meat shield\other shit that work much better than that?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:27

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

^^I'm proposing the ability to use bucklers with 2H period.

The "penalties" are just potential caveats in case people thought it was a gimme. They don't have to be there, though -- Obvioiusly that would be better if just anyone could 2H + buckler.

Also, 15 skill in a single magic school on many melee builds would take considerably more XP (due to poor aptitudes) and be of considerably less use.

Reflection is also far from weak. When you're in Vaults and there is a horde of yaktaurs and giants pelting you with bolts and large rocks, reflection is powerful. If you're in Elf and run into a pack of blinking archers and mages/etc, you'll want to kill the mages first but the archers will be a serious threat potentially.

Also, unless I'm mistaken SH skill increases the SH you get from your shield. In certain circumstances (such as the warlock's mirrors) a moderate SH is all you need for a rather decent defensive mechanism.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:32

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Maybe create an unique amulet which allows to use a shield along with 2h weapon? That amulet might be useful for warlock's mirror or some nice randart shield. Basically macabre finger necklace replaces amulet slot with a ring slot and the new amulet would replace amulet slot with shield slot. Though it would still probably be inferior to brooch of Shielding in many cases.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:39

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

^^Possibly an option, but that indeed would overlap with brooch of shielding.

Perhaps a mutation? "Third Arm" working like a limited version of the Formicid's "Four Arms."
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:48

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

My problem with the proposal is how a buckler worked. It wasn't just a very small shield, it was a very small shield you held with your hand: there was a grip you held, like with a pot's lid, not straps that went around your arm. Holding that and a weapon at the same time doesn't strike me as convenient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ1q-IfLDdo
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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 14:53

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

^^True, but later designs often were "build it" allowing the hand to be free, like the hilarious and frightening lantern shield.

As an alternate option, this could possibly be an artefact. A type of shield that allows you to wield 2H instead of a blanket allows for all bucklers.

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 15:07

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

I think the mutation could be a decent addition to DS as rework of the shield scale facet - something like less base bonus of sh of now, possibility of using buckler\shield with 2h with some kind of penalties.
As random would be too unreliable and annoying - why should you put any skill on shield if the next malmutate could strip you of that?

Very nice idea for a fixedart shield that works with 2H, there is some work to define it but would be nice addition.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 15:16

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

1) DS Mutation -- Oooo I like that. Gives good options. Also, yes, good point about the malmutate.

2) Yeah, I think a fixedart shield (with good enchantment to actually give decent SH) might work. Something like "+9 Buckler of the Juggernaut {reflect} -- Due to the thick mounting apparatus for the wearer's arm, this can be used by creatures of any size, and allows you to wield two-handed weapons as normal." You'd get an acceptable SH, it'd be a buckler (so only 9 skills to use, less for certain races), and it would be available to those races that can't normally use bucklers. It would also be ideal for lajatang-mage builds wanting to get up some defenses. The reflection doesn't have to be there, but it is useful...and by mid/late-game you will likely want your artefact amulet instead of an amulet of reflecting.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 15:47

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

A Ds mutation that allows you to use shields as if you were large would also be cool.

And +1 to the artifact. After all, why not? It would need a name to convey the concept of the lantern shield, so a targe(t) built around a gauntlet. "Shield of Freedom", since it leaves both hands free?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 16:56

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Bucklers in Crawl aren't arm bucklers or lantern shields. They're fist bucklers. It doesn't make sense to be able to use a weapon in the same hand.

Furthermore, your rationale for why DCSS characters should be able to wear bucklers with two-handers seems to boil down to "DnD has it". The example you gave is ridiculous, nobody should care about whether they have reflection or not.

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 17:12

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

OTOH an lantern shield unrand (gloves that took up the gloves and shield slot and added some SH) which didn't forbid the use of two handed weapons wouldn't be terribly out of place at all.

Of course a "Gloves that give you a few points of SH" unrand don't sound very exiting to me, personally (If you tacked on some other interesting Unrand-y effect that seemed related it might get interesting, I don't have any ideas on what that might be though)
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 17:49

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Alphaeus wrote:So, again, this is coming from my DnD 3.5e/Pathfinder perspective.

Stop talking about D&D—especially specific versions! We don't want people to think we're nerds!

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 9th February 2018, 18:09

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Airwolf wrote:
Alphaeus wrote:So, again, this is coming from my DnD 3.5e/Pathfinder perspective.

Stop talking about D&D—especially specific versions! We don't want people to think we're nerds!


I say this merely because I can't take credit for coming up with something on my own. Otherwise it doesn't matter.

Also, to the issue of what bucklers are in this game -- there is never clarification one way or the other, unless we just presume it is a standard handle buckler instead of an arm buckler.

Secondly, as the subject changed to a unrand, the concept of a lantern shield itself can serve as a good basis for options (of which there were tons) -- it had blinding light that could be used (holiness of some kind?) the gauntlet for using two-handed weapons, extra sword blade, serrated blades for disarming/stabbing, etc.

**In fact, this could arguably be an "upgraded" version of the Fencer's Gloves -- the blades and the like justify the riposte, and the defensive side (SH boost) would provide more use to the slot.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 10th February 2018, 01:33

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Alphaeus wrote:Also, to the issue of what bucklers are in this game -- there is never clarification one way or the other,
There is though. It's confirmed to be the kind you hold with your hand, not strapped on your arm, by the way you can't use 2H weapons with one on.

You could argue that it should go the other way, but I don't see the gameplay rationale.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 10th February 2018, 01:58

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

I've got an idea, let's make it weirder.

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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 12th February 2018, 18:23

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Which as you an see from the pose is akward to wield and would definitely preclude the use of a two handed weapon. It also hinders the use of a weapon and generally interfering with movement is every respect. I think there were only a few instances where a military did use both a shield and a two handed weapon and only as part of a tight formation of pikes. No room to swing a 2 handed weapon around. Lantern shields in "real life" were niche and appeared to be totally quickly abandoned. I don't see the point of adding lantern shields and the like when we should be streamlining weapons, not adding esoteric wierdness just because it was in some roleplaying game. I'm not against the idea of having SH and wielding two handed wapons, but the formicid and an amulet that does exactly just that already exists.

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 12th February 2018, 19:15

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

I don't understand what the value of this change is. To me, it has 3 downsides compared to the current approach:

1) It's contrary to common conceptualizations of "shields." Barring a couple of notable exceptions (like old versions of D&D - it's even how it works in the most recent version,) shields are held in one hand, keeping you from being able to use that hand for anything else. Now, Crawl shouldn't do things "because other games do them," but there should be a compelling reason to make it different than "what people think of when they hear a concept."

2) This change makes formacid's shield mutation less unique. If everyone can wear a shield with a two-hander, then it's less cool that it's a unique formacid thing. Granted, they're large creatures, so it's not a huge difference, but it's a difference.

3) It turns bucklers into a free upgrade to every character (that can wear them). There's no longer a reason not to put those 4 ranks into shields. Ever. It reduces choice by making a best option for everyone. (Or you make the skill requirement so high there isn't a reason to wear it ever. Nobody's investing 15 shields to wear a buckler and a 2-hander, that's crazy talk.)

So unless there's a compelling reason TO make this change, there are too many downsides to make it, IMO.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 12th February 2018, 20:38

Re: Bucklers and 2H weapons

Prior to 0.12, Crawl had a hand-and-a-half category for weapons. Removing that was good.

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