Don't let otr affect allies


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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 15:15

Don't let otr affect allies

Creating a non-rpois ally with olgreb's toxic radiance active immediately turns that ally hostile with no warning. I suspect that you'd have to handle a bunch of special cases to warn the player appropriately, so I would suggest just not having otr affect allies at all. Nerf the base damage if this makes the spell too good I guess.

E: alternatively, just don't turn player-created allies hostile and then nerf allies across the board.

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nago

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 15:21

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

I suggest to keep base damage as is. Some players already hate allies, let's not add yet another reason for that.

Edit. I don't see why the exception should be done for OTR. There are lots of AoE spells including Shatter which affects everything as well.
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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 15:41

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

The behavior of spells/effects on allies is rather inconsistent. For instance, Bend Time slows down allies as well, but doesn't turn them hostile. In general, a good rule to follow for these kinds of effects could to affect allies (damage/poison/slow whatever), but not turn them hostile unless specifically targeted.

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 17:34

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

bel wrote:The behavior of spells/effects on allies is rather inconsistent. For instance, Bend Time slows down allies as well, but doesn't turn them hostile. In general, a good rule to follow for these kinds of effects could to affect allies (damage/poison/slow whatever), but not turn them hostile unless specifically targeted.


Is it inconsistent? Isn't it just "When you deal damage to your allies?" Bend time and metabolic englaciation don't deal damage, so don't turn allies hostile, Olgreb's only turns them hostile if you actually poison them, and Ozocobu's Refrigeration turns them hostile even if they resist, because it still does damage. Seems consistent to me.

Personally, I think that having screen-wide AoE that ignores allies is way too powerful, and there should just be a warning added when summoning under Olgreb's.

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 19:02

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Stonar wrote: Isn't it just "When you deal damage to your allies?

This isn't intuitive at all to me. If one of your allies attacks another, does the hurt ally turn hostile? What about an ally hurt by a fulminant prism or a missed shot fired by a battlesphere? Do clouds created directly by the player on an ally's square cause the ally to turn? What about clouds (or explosions) created indirectly, such as steam or exploding trees? What about miscast effects that cause explosions? etc. etc. Not to mention the fact that certain allies follow different rules.

Allies would be way less frustrating to use if you never had to worry about the possibility of them turning on you.

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 19:54

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Stonar wrote:Is it inconsistent? Isn't it just "When you deal damage to your allies?"

slouch doesn't anger allies

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 20:09

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

CanOfWorms wrote:
Stonar wrote:Is it inconsistent? Isn't it just "When you deal damage to your allies?"

slouch doesn't anger allies

This is because they also understand the need to take it easy.

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Post Wednesday, 10th January 2018, 23:38

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. I don't see why the exception should be done for OTR. There are lots of AoE spells including Shatter which affects everything as well.


The main issue with Otr is that is a multi turns spell (only case existing for conjuration\damage spell?), so you can end with hostile allies if somehow you summon one while it is active, because I think no warning is given in that case.
I believe at least a warning such as: "this action may summon an hostile ally because so." should be prompted to help unspoiled allies.

Howver, at least one case of passive hostile ally spawn exists: demonspawn demonic guardian - if this is has not been already addressed since the last time I've checked. You cast otr, something trigger the guardian, you may enjoy multiple hostile 1/2s addead to already bad situation.

Obliviously I'm all for "otr causes no damage to allies".
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 07:48

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

nago wrote:Howver, at least one case of passive hostile ally spawn exists: demonspawn demonic guardian - if this is has not been already addressed since the last time I've checked. You cast otr, something trigger the guardian, you may enjoy multiple hostile 1/2s addead to already bad situation.

Obliviously I'm all for "otr causes no damage to allies".


I think the same problem happens with clouds (fire storm, freezing cloud) and tornado. Obviously I am all for "never make allies hostile". IMHO it's not fun to retreat waiting for your ally to randomly move in position where you can cast fireball and alike.
Though it will make allies even more powerful as you will be able to use bolt of fire or shoot arrows through them.
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 08:19

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Personally, I think damage spells should always damage allies in the area of effect, and also never anger them.
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 08:58

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Siegurt wrote:Personally, I think damage spells should always damage allies in the area of effect, and also never anger them.

Sounds good to keep some complexity while making the game faster.

Maybe add a y/n/always toggle for "do you want to damage your allies?". If you choose "always", have the prompt only show up again if you start worshipping Oka.
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 10:57

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

TSO also is grumpy when you hurt the allies he gifts.
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 14:26

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
nago wrote:Howver, at least one case of passive hostile ally spawn exists: demonspawn demonic guardian - if this is has not been already addressed since the last time I've checked. You cast otr, something trigger the guardian, you may enjoy multiple hostile 1/2s addead to already bad situation.

Obliviously I'm all for "otr causes no damage to allies".


I think the same problem happens with clouds (fire storm, freezing cloud) and tornado. Obviously I am all for "never make allies hostile". IMHO it's not fun to retreat waiting for your ally to randomly move in position where you can cast fireball and alike.
Though it will make allies even more powerful as you will be able to use bolt of fire or shoot arrows through them.



Out of curiosity, I made some wiz-test with demonic guardian that made say: "what the fuck".

It seems currently you won't rage a guardian - at least not with freezing cloud, tornado or otr. Even if you cast in their face.

However, otr and tornado damage them, while for some reasons freezing clouds seems not (even if the demon are not immune to them), even if you cast the spell after they spawned.

So my experience wasn't updated to last version of crawl, but it seems there are still some weird interactions between things. Going for "no allies get angered, all get damage" would be a nice way to deal with all micro-specific situation (like, who does remember on which kind of ally you can cast inner flame and on which not?
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Post Thursday, 11th January 2018, 14:45

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Yes, as far as I know demonic guardian is special-cased, it behaves differently than everything else
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Post Friday, 12th January 2018, 06:47

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Stonar wrote: Isn't it just "When you deal damage to your allies?"
It's just "When you deal damage to your allies, unless the damage is from one of the many things that don't anger allies, and also when you hit your allies with a hex, but only a beam style hex it doesn't happen with metabolic englaciation, it also doesn't happen if you cast pain on an ally that's immune to it but does happen if you cast confuse on an ally that's immune to it, and also when you do some things that don't deal damage to your allies, like hitting a skeleton with a needle, but hitting a skeleton with a bolt of draining or venom is ok"

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Post Friday, 12th January 2018, 18:21

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

That does seem bad.

But that feels like a different question. Being able to damage allies without them turning hostile seems so abusable - stuff like OTR/Ozo's Refrigeration/Shatter lets you put summons between you and the bad things, and still damage them. Even Ozo's Refrigeration + Ice Beast is very strong, and ice beasts tend to die quite quickly. It sounds like the "turning hositle" logic could use a pass for consistency, but wouldn't it be absurdly good to be able to summon and screen-wide damage? (Or even fire bolts through allies?)
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Post Friday, 12th January 2018, 18:43

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

If limiting ally abuse is the objective, then maybe they should be removed from spells and become limited through piety and god conduct instead.
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Post Friday, 12th January 2018, 20:07

Re: Don't let otr affect allies

Stonar wrote:wouldn't it be absurdly good to be able to summon and screen-wide damage? (Or even fire bolts through allies?)

You can already do this with some combinations (as was pointed out OR + ice beast, OTR+undead, Bolt of venom and draining through undead, draining through demons, bolts of cold through ice beasts and the cold demons, bolts of fire through fire demons. I don't know if it's "absurdly" good, it is pretty good though, I miss being able to summon air elementals and fire lightning bolts through them :'-(

Also *hostile* summons you create are actually if anything even more abusable than *friendly* ones, many bad guys don't attack you with area effects if it would hurt a friendly, if you can summon a blocker that monsters won't attack, and won't attack you through, you have unlimited blocking (as long as the summoned critter is less dangerous than the thing that is on the other side of it)
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