Stash Branches

[mumra]

I had an idea for a mid-late game branch or even just a vault designed specifically as a stash location and thought I'd get some feedback.

Currently if you want to save items it seems you have two choices;

a) The standard progression of known "safe" locations: Temple -> Lair:2 / Hive:2 -> Vestible
b) Just leaving stuff on the floor or picking a location at random, using Ctrl-F when you need it

The problems with this system are;

• The "safe" locations are distinctly spoilery; there's no obvious reason for any of them, without in-depth knowledge of monster generation (except perhaps Temple). Vestibule isn't even 100% safe.
• Actually stuff is pretty safe anywhere on a cleared level, assuming you're not wandering around on it too much. But you never know. Clearly a sufficient number of players are paranoid enough about losing items to warrant making time-consuming trips back and forth.
• Sometimes the stairs to L:2 don't lead you immediately to a nice, open space with room to spread items about a bit
• You might want to set a waypoint on your stash with Ctrl-W to make travelling there convenient. But that doesn't work on Webtiles! (Ctrl-W closes the current tab in most web browsers) (I've been meaning to raise a bug regarding that) Also, casual players are probably not even aware of waypoints.
• It's certainly nice to have most of your items (particularly spellbooks) gathered in one place so you can browse. It's easy to forget some items you might have found over the course of a game.
• If you leave stuff lying around all over the dungeon, it's a pain to travel from one item to another when you're re-requipping, say for a different Hell branch.
• There's nothing between mid and late game. Clearing out the Vestible is a pretty scary task even for a high-level character.
• Hive is about to get axed. It is usually a deeper stash than Lair, hence its popularity (and I've seen a few comments from players asking for an alternate stash).

Obviously a lot of these issues are minor and can be worked around. The spoilerish nature of stashes is, I think, the biggest problem.

What I'm proposing is an idea of "Stash Branches". Actually, these could be implemented as regular vaults appearing in the dungeon, perhaps with a player-only teleport to get in or out, or even a door that was lockable in some way. A branch would probably be the easiest mechanism though.

The idea consists of:

• Stash Branch entrances are guaranteed at particular depth ranges. This could just be a single one in the late dungeon (say around D:20), but it would be nice to have something around Hive depth. Obviously the Temple is fine for the early game
• The entrances perhaps shouldn't take you to the same stash (although, I actually don't see a huge problem with this; the food cost of travelling back and forth to the stash seems fairly irrelevant by the late game)
• The player is explicitly informed "This seems like a safe place to store items". (This message should also appear at the Ecumenical Temple to remove spoilers entirely)
• A Stash Branch is a single, medium sized vault map, somewhat smaller than a typical Temple
• These would be themed around something distinctly "stashy"; e.g. "Abandoned Temple", "Broom Cupboard", "Forgotten Shack", "Tranquil Pool", "The Oubliette" ...
• They should involve some challenge; clearing out a themed monster set within the stash, or maybe having to deal with a specific threat on the dungeon level before the stash is unlocked (perhaps killing a particular unique to acquire a key)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[RFHolloway]

Perhaps almost like one of those treasure vault things (that I have never seen) show [20 assorted potions] /[100 stones]/[5 armours]/[a rune]etc and a portal opens up with a message "looks like you need a place to store all that stuff" - perhaps could even reuse the code.

[Curio]

nice one. Theme of this vaults can be very diverse. I imagine troll/ogre cave, worm breeding grounds etc.

[mumra]

nice one. Theme of this vaults can be very diverse. I imagine troll/ogre cave, worm breeding grounds etc.

Nice ideas. For some reason that also made me think of "Elephant Graveyard" and "Dragons Den" If the basic feature was there, vault designers could go crazy.

[jejorda2]

[*] You might want to set a waypoint on your stash with Ctrl-W to make travelling there convenient. But that doesn't work on Webtiles! (Ctrl-W closes the current tab in most web browsers) (I've been meaning to raise a bug regarding that) Also, casual players are probably not even aware of waypoints.

*w (Asterisk followed by w) works to create a waypoint in webtiles. In general, astersisk followed by anything seems to work in place of control plus anything, for webtiles or any other version of crawl.

The stashes still sound like a good idea, especially with the proposed challenges required to use them.

Offhand, I don't see a reason most existing portal vaults couldn't turn into stashes instead of empty portals. You'd have to make it so if you kill everything (or just the Ice Fiend, or pick up the wizard's staff, or whatever), you can come and go as you please. If you don't, all the loot and enemies disappear when you leave so you can't come kill them when you are stronger. There might need to be a prompt when you left that told you if you'd satisfied the requirements.

[mumra]

*w (Asterisk followed by w) works to create a waypoint in webtiles. In general, astersisk followed by anything seems to work in place of control plus anything, for webtiles or any other version of crawl.

Thanks, that's very useful! It's been quite irritating not having waypoints. I asked around once or twice but nobody seemed to know.

Offhand, I don't see a reason most existing portal vaults couldn't turn into stashes instead of empty portals. You'd have to make it so if you kill everything (or just the Ice Fiend, or pick up the wizard's staff, or whatever), you can come and go as you please. If you don't, all the loot and enemies disappear when you leave so you can't come kill them when you are stronger. There might need to be a prompt when you left that told you if you'd satisfied the requirements.

I can see how you could justify some portals in terms of flavour; but none of them are positioned particularly conveniently for a stash. They're all in early D, Lair, or Vaults.

[evilmike]

This is a weird idea, and very unnecessary. If you want a mid/late stash, have you considered using the hall of blades? Aside from stair spawns it's a pretty safe area once you clear it out (assuming you can clear it out).

But besides that, there's really nothing wrong with using Lair. Travel time isn't that bad... typically it will only be 300 or so turns to travel all the way back, unless you're really deep, or lair is really early. Set travel_delay = -1 to make it go faster for you.

You should also consider just stashing items (perhaps temporarily) on previous levels, or on branch entries. For example, if you are doing vaults, putting a stash on the entrance to vaults (in D) is 100% safe. Just make sure you pick it up once you decide to move on.

[XuaXua]

The problems with this system are;

• Sometimes the stairs to L:2 don't lead you immediately to a nice, open space with room to spread items about a bit

This isn't so much of a problem; I have started dumping everything in a single square and then clicking on the square to get the pick-up menu; I've found it much easier.

Obviously a lot of these issues are minor and can be worked around. The spoilerish nature of stashes is, I think, the biggest problem.
...
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

To figure out a solution, we need to determine two things:

1) Why do we need to create stashes?

2) Why do we need to create SAFE stashes?

The answers are two-fold.

We create stashes (1) to put excess items in a single place for easy access. These items are generally (in order of importance)
- spellbooks - SUPER HEAVY
- valuable rare items we cannot or might not immediately use (cure mutation potions, restore abilities potions, experience potions)
- excess consumables (scrolls/food/potions/wands)
- items we have no need to carry at this time, but will require as resources at later branches (amulet of conservation, etc.)
- items we are yet unable to use but plan to once our skills are appropriate (shield, armor, staves of XXX, a distortion or pain-branded weapon)
- items we deem dangerous for monsters to re-pickup and cannot yet find a lava to throw them in (weapons of distortion, draining, chaos, etc.)
- consolidated artefact area for large points at endgame

We need to create SAFE stashes (2) because the stashes get mucked with by
- jellies/acidic creatures which destroy them and do not generate naturally in Lair, Hive or Hell
- monsters which pick up our consumables (including rare items) and weapon items ( related - What do monsters pick up? - Weapons, Armor, Consumables (all? potions, all? scrolls, wands, rods).

Are there other reasons? We need to understand what drives this stashing behavior before we can solve it.

[XuaXua]

For example, if you are doing vaults, putting a stash on the entrance to vaults (in D) is 100% safe.

Monsters won't come by and pick up your items or consumables?
Jellies or other acidics might not randomly spawn and demolish the stash?

[galehar]

For example, if you are doing vaults, putting a stash on the entrance to vaults (in D) is 100% safe.

Monsters won't come by and pick up your items or consumables?
Jellies or other acidics might not randomly spawn and demolish the stash?

Not when you are on a different level. So if you dump it on a branch entrance it's 100% safe since you'll immediately be on the stash when you come back to the level.

[XuaXua]

For example, if you are doing vaults, putting a stash on the entrance to vaults (in D) is 100% safe.

Monsters won't come by and pick up your items or consumables?
Jellies or other acidics might not randomly spawn and demolish the stash?

Not when you are on a different level. So if you dump it on a branch entrance it's 100% safe since you'll immediately be on the stash when you come back to the level.

Did you mean a different branch, or can I drop my stash on the stairs of D:12 when I go to D:13-17 and it's safe?

[mumra]

This is a weird idea, and very unnecessary. If you want a mid/late stash, have you considered using the hall of blades? Aside from stair spawns it's a pretty safe area once you clear it out (assuming you can clear it out).

But besides that, there's really nothing wrong with using Lair. Travel time isn't that bad... typically it will only be 300 or so turns to travel all the way back, unless you're really deep, or lair is really early. Set travel_delay = -1 to make it go faster for you.

You should also consider just stashing items (perhaps temporarily) on previous levels, or on branch entries. For example, if you are doing vaults, putting a stash on the entrance to vaults (in D) is 100% safe. Just make sure you pick it up once you decide to move on.

Possibly you missed the intent of my original post; of course these are all valid options. My main point is that someone had to tell me, otherwise I'd never have known. What I'd like to know would be a good, non-spoilerish, way of communicating that information in-game.

[Kate]

As galehar said, branches are just a special case where you'll always return in the same place so can be certain you'll be right on top of your temporary stash. If you return to D:12 by the same staircase you used to descend in that example, then yes, it's just as 100% safe.

[galehar]

Did you mean a different branch, or can I drop my stash on the stairs of D:12 when I go to D:13-17 and it's safe?

That's safe too as long as you use the right staircase to come back on D:12 (not a problem with branch entrances, hence my example). And even if you don't, it's still 99.9% safe if D:12 is cleared. It's very unlikely that a monster would spawn and have the time to get to your stash while you're travelling from one stairs to the stash.

[dpeg]

I believe the topic is highly overvalued, sometimes bordering on paranoia and hysteria. How many jelly incidents did _you_ experience? Of course, we all have heard of tragic cases but I myself have never had eaten anything, and I am not particularly careful.

In my opinion, it's not worth the time and effort to create "solutions" to this problem. If "spoiled" players have an edge by increasing their safety margin from 99% to 100%, I don't mind.

[XuaXua]

Possibly you missed the intent of my original post; of course these are all valid options. My main point is that someone had to tell me, otherwise I'd never have known. What I'd like to know would be a good, non-spoilerish, way of communicating that information in-game.

Simple solution, then.
Certain levels can be qualified as stash levels.

On entering a stash branch for this first time, a yellow message can appear

TEMPLE: "Monsters may only follow you in here, making it a safe place to store excess items."
LAIR/HIVE: "If any level of the lair/hive is cleared of any intelligent and corrosive monsters, it could make a somewhat safe place to store excess items."
HELL: "Monsters may only follow you in here, making it a safe place to store excess items if all the current residents are somehow evicted."

[smock]

I believe the topic is highly overvalued, sometimes bordering on paranoia and hysteria. How many jelly incidents did _you_ experience? Of course, we all have heard of tragic cases but I myself have never had eaten anything, and I am not particularly careful.

In my opinion, it's not worth the time and effort to create "solutions" to this problem. If "spoiled" players have an edge by increasing their safety margin from 99% to 100%, I don't mind.

Whether the problem is real or just perceived, it apparently affects how people play and they don't like those effects. I would not want a solution to the perceived problem to be high on a to-do list, but something simple that might help many semi-spoiled players (those that fear jellies too much!) might make lots of players happy.

[galehar]

Possibly you missed the intent of my original post; of course these are all valid options. My main point is that someone had to tell me, otherwise I'd never have known. What I'd like to know would be a good, non-spoilerish, way of communicating that information in-game.

Well yes, that's certainly possible. I think the inventory needs a help, and in hint mode, it could explain the basics of stash safety and what items to stash. Then the burden hint could tell you to check the inventory help for information about stash safety. We could also add a "consumable destroyed" hint which again points you to the inventory help.
Note that the burden hint already tells you to drop stuff and warns you that monsters might pick them up. The temple branch description says it is "a place of peace and refuge from the insanity of the dungeon". So you might figure out something out of that.
However, explaining in-game what we've just explained to XuaXua about off-level stash safety seems too much. It will probably stays spoiler material, but it's not really needed to win the game.

Whether the problem is real or just perceived, it apparently affects how people play and they don't like those effects. I would not want a solution to the perceived problem to be high on a to-do list, but something simple that might help many semi-spoiled players (those that fear jellies too much!) might make lots of players happy.

What if jellies are excluded from the random monster spawn? They'd still be normally placed on level generation, just not after.

[Galefury]

Jellies eating items is good. It means you have to kill them quickly, and chase them down if they run. This is interesting and unique.

Jellies eating items on cleared levels is not good. Chasing them down is trivial but tedious when they are the only thing on the level.

I'm all for removing jellies from the random spawns.

[smock]

Removing jellies from random spawns is a great call. This alone would save many trips to stashes for many paranoid crawlers.

[KoboldLord]

That presumes that the fear is born in rationality in the first place. I honestly don't think it does.

The worst stash-compromising events I've experienced have all involved intelligent humanoids, anyway. Several times I've had orc packs spawn and drink potions or steal weapons from my temporary stash before I hit Lair, and it's mildly annoying but not crippling. Any weapons they picked up will be recognizable as what they are, so when one got that distortion weapon I just shot the offender from a distance.

[smock]

That presumes that the fear is born in rationality in the first place. I honestly don't think it does.

Crawlers may have hording issues.

I once had all my Kiku-gifted spellbooks aside from Necronomicon eaten by a jelly. I had found an early altar and so gained much piety before finding lair. I forget why I didn't stash in the temple -- Grinder probably. I think the character did OK despite that but it really did hurt to not have recall or sublimation.

[Mental Mouse]

I agree that more stashes are needed, especially with the impending banishment of Hive. Yeah, it's usually possible to find a nice room to stash your stuff in down in the D-20s, (and/or late teens) but it's nerve-wracking in a not-fun way. +1 for removing jellies from random spawn. I suspect that making existing portal realms permanent is a non-starter, but it would be nice. I do like the idea of making the Temple "first of a series", and later ones requiring a serious test similar to the current business of clearing out Hive.

[Mental Mouse]

"Vestibulifying" the Temple would effectively make for one stash (and most of the altars) accessible from anywhere in the dungeon. That would be a huge buff for food-sensitive species -- currently, a Troll or Centaur (or, for that matter, a Spriggan) needs to think hard about where to stash stuff, and how to transfer it to lower levels. I don't usually play those species, but are you sure that's appropriate?

[Mental Mouse]

In that case, I'd say, whatever. You don't want the portals to be too common, but simply guaranteeing to have one within a certain number of levels would ditch a lot of the aggravation associated with moving house and maintaining storage. And yes, I just got a game with Temple on D:4, and the first branch on D:10.

[minstrel]

If you played those species you would realize that they don't actually need to do that. No matter what your species, the food cost for traveling across the entire dungeon is not significant.

Agreed. I like your previous idea of adding a temple entrance on D:20 or somewhere around there. It's a KISS solution implementation-wise and would save the time of moving gear to the new proposed stash branch.