Make forms not suppress movement mutations


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bel

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 19:38

Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Because there isn't any good reason for them to do so, apart from simulationism.

There are many downsides:
  • NaTm casting spider form essentially gets rid of slow speed for free. What's the point of a slow race if you can just get rid of the main weakness with a spell you typically learn on D:1 or D:2?
  • Nagas worshipping Chei are incentivized to not use spider form and and rather use beastly appendage to kill popcorn, so as to maximize piety gain (I have actually done this in Hellcrawl DUZH run)
  • Same thing happens with Fe in reverse, but this case is not that important.

Besides I want to play a Chei statue form Naga with 4.2 movement delay.

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duvessa, VeryAngryFelid

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 20:18

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

1. thematically, what's the point of a transformation if it doesn't actually change anything about your innate attributes and abilites, just imagine a Naga turning into a cougar and moving in slow motion (granted no chei in that scenario); gameplay wise, I don't see why slow races shouldn't have ways to make up for their drawback. makes tm an interesting background choice for them. also levels 1-2 are the deadliest anyway. and normal speed with 2 AC isn't exactly the best escape anyway. I'd rather start air mage for swiftness idk
2. why on earth would you forego a massive EV boost, higher base damage and accuracy and venom brand for marginally higher piety gain
3. why would it be it any less important?

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 22:30

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

GuideCritic wrote:1. thematically, what's the point of a transformation if it doesn't actually change anything about your innate attributes and abilites, just imagine a Naga turning into a cougar and moving in slow motion (granted no chei in that scenario); gameplay wise, I don't see why slow races shouldn't have ways to make up for their drawback. makes tm an interesting background choice for them. also levels 1-2 are the deadliest anyway. and normal speed with 2 AC isn't exactly the best escape anyway. I'd rather start air mage for swiftness idk
2. why on earth would you forego a massive EV boost, higher base damage and accuracy and venom brand for marginally higher piety gain
3. why would it be it any less important?
It is amazing to read how you are trying to prove that Spider Form is not a big deal in 1. and that Spider Form is really great in 2.
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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 23:03

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Yeah it's almost like trying to get away from something very fast is different than trying to kill something very fast although in this case there can be some overlap because of the poison

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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 04:10

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

GuideCritic wrote:1. thematically, what's the point of a transformation if it doesn't actually change anything about your innate attributes and abilites, just imagine a Naga turning into a cougar and moving in slow motion (granted no chei in that scenario)
thematically, spider form shouldn't be able to open doors, and your character should have to drink water routinely and poop occasionally, but what's thematically right and what's actually good design are very different things.
GuideCritic wrote:gameplay wise, I don't see why slow races shouldn't have ways to make up for their drawback.
there's not much point in having a drawback at all if you can just disable that drawback at will. you can make up for a drawback without getting rid of the drawback; Tr has the drawback of bad aptitudes but makes up for it by having amazing HP, damage, etc.

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bel

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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 05:16

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Your player tile in statue form shows you as a (gray-colored) naga: your movement mutation is suppressed, but not your poison spit mutation. Thematically, I suggest that my proposal makes more sense; but even if it didn't, theme is secondary to gameplay.

Also, about the spider form/appendage point:
2. why on earth would you forego a massive EV boost, higher base damage and accuracy and venom brand for marginally higher piety gain

Perhaps you didn't read correctly (hint: the operative word is "popcorn"). Also, Chei piety snowballs: the more your piety, the slower you are, and the slower you are, the more you gain piety from a particular monster. In any case, the game should not be incentivizing such silly tactics.

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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 09:55

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

you know what, just do what you want, idc anymore

why not make hellcrawl the official version anyway

bel

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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 10:43

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

You are speaking in riddles. My post has nothing to do with Hellcrawl. It has the same problem as normal DCSS (in this respect).

bel

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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 11:30

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Also, I think people are underestimating the lulz potential of a statue CheiNaga: taking one step and getting five Damnations in the face (by a Hellion which is speed 12).

I say it is a win-win-win: more logic, more fun and more deaths.
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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 14:59

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

duvessa wrote:thematically, spider form shouldn't be able to open doors, and your character should have to drink water routinely and poop occasionally, but what's thematically right and what's actually good design are very different things.


A poison flavoured ugly thing would be a bit like spider form, I guess. They can open doors. The fun begins when you get close to other ugly things and start changing colours...

Also, does spider form still give you the speed boost? I thought it had been removed, as well as the stealth boost.
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Post Saturday, 23rd December 2017, 19:18

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

spider form sets your movement delay to 10, which is a speed boost for nagas and barachians

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Post Wednesday, 27th December 2017, 17:14

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Isn't that the point of transmutations? Doesn't statform invalidate the downsides of being an octopode or felid? Doesn't blade hands invalidate the weakness of "training unarmed on any race that doesn't have claws?" Doesn't necromutation invalidate the inherent weakness of having living flesh to torment?

Besides, races in Crawl are meant to be a difficulty slider, right? I don't see an issue with a spell invalidating your race's inherent weaknesses at a cost. If that's too easy for you, then don't use spider form.

Incentive to use a worse spell to maximize piety gain at the cost of defenses sounds like a compelling tactical choice, I don't understand why that's a problem, especially because spider form will still give you plenty of piety.

The bit about statform seems like a separate complaint, however. I agree with that one - statform probably should slow nagas more than it does. (Important to note that statform's slow is greater than naga's, so you'll always slow SOME in statform, just not as much as you would if it stacked.)

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Post Wednesday, 27th December 2017, 17:43

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Stonar wrote:If that's too easy for you, then don't use

This is wrong approach when we are talking about spells IMHO. Spells should be balanced for their level.
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Post Wednesday, 27th December 2017, 18:10

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

VeryAngryFelid wrote:This is wrong approach when we are talking about spells IMHO. Spells should be balanced for their level.


I agree, but am coming to a different conclusion. "Spider form is good on a naga at level 2" is irrelevant if "spider form is an appropriate power level at level 2." Spider form on a naga doesn't increase the power level of naga ABOVE that of other races. Granted, I may be wrong about that - I suppose naga's poison spit + spider form might make them too good early game, but nobody's making that point.

Also, spider form may very well be OP at level 2, but I haven't heard anyone make that argument in the abstract, either.

bel

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Post Thursday, 28th December 2017, 05:44

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Stonar wrote:
Spoiler: show
Isn't that the point of transmutations? Doesn't statform invalidate the downsides of being an octopode or felid? Doesn't blade hands invalidate the weakness of "training unarmed on any race that doesn't have claws?" Doesn't necromutation invalidate the inherent weakness of having living flesh to torment?

Besides, races in Crawl are meant to be a difficulty slider, right? I don't see an issue with a spell invalidating your race's inherent weaknesses at a cost. If that's too easy for you, then don't use spider form.

Incentive to use a worse spell to maximize piety gain at the cost of defenses sounds like a compelling tactical choice, I don't understand why that's a problem, especially because spider form will still give you plenty of piety.

The bit about statform seems like a separate complaint, however. I agree with that one - statform probably should slow nagas more than it does. (Important to note that statform's slow is greater than naga's, so you'll always slow SOME in statform, just not as much as you would if it stacked.)

You are starting from the wrong place. First, list your positive reasons for forms suppressing movement mutations. How does it help the game design? For instance, tell me why spider form keeps poison spit mutation, but not slow movement.

Better still, assume that you are designing forms from scratch, and you have the option of suppressing movement mutations or not. Why would you make one choice over the other?

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duvessa

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Post Tuesday, 2nd January 2018, 23:45

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

bel wrote:Also, I think people are underestimating the lulz potential of a statue CheiNaga: taking one step and getting five Damnations in the face (by a Hellion which is speed 12).

I say it is a win-win-win: more logic, more fun and more deaths.

You can have up to 60 aut movement speed if you chei-statue-step into shallow water, if you're looking for maximum fun (I believe the shallow water penalty still maxes at x2 movement delay, but is random each time). It is somewhat hard to find water and hellions in the same area, but you can always be shot by something else instead. Maybe fight a hydra in the swamp in shallow water, they get the speed boost, and hit you 156 or something absurd times (but still deal 0 damage).

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bel

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 01:08

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

tasonir wrote:
bel wrote:Also, I think people are underestimating the lulz potential of a statue CheiNaga: taking one step and getting five Damnations in the face (by a Hellion which is speed 12).

I say it is a win-win-win: more logic, more fun and more deaths.

You can have up to 60 aut movement speed if you chei-statue-step into shallow water, if you're looking for maximum fun (I believe the shallow water penalty still maxes at x2 movement delay, but is random each time). It is somewhat hard to find water and hellions in the same area, but you can always be shot by something else instead. Maybe fight a hydra in the swamp in shallow water, they get the speed boost, and hit you 156 or something absurd times (but still deal 0 damage).

Don't forget to get 0 in Dex/Int/Strength too :)
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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 13:30

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Do you want nagas to not have a reason to cast spider form?
Edit: maybe chei piety gain shouldnt be based on something as dumb as killing enemies faster than you

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 14:02

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero wrote:Do you want nagas to not have a reason to cast spider form?


Do you mean other species don't have a reason to cast the spell provided they are already normal speed? Nagas in spider form have much higher damage output AND better defense. Of course I am talking about early game when spider form is relevant i.e. no barding, no +2 cloak, no +6 MDS etc.
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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 14:25

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you mean other species don't have a reason to cast the spell provided they are already normal speed?

If you use spider form to sit in front of a enemy instead of biting it twice and leaving.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 14:44

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero wrote:If you use spider form to sit in front of a enemy instead of biting it twice and leaving.


Kiting is bad and should be removed where possible. I believe devs agree with this (Swiftness change makes me think this way). It is fine to have kiting available to easy species (Centaur) but having a spell which makes one of the hardest species quite easy is wrong. It's like having a spell that allows Fo to teleport or Mu to quaff potions.
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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 15:13

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

i like the idea that natm is a good combo.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 15:15

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero wrote:i like the idea that natm is a good combo.


If NaTm is an easy combo, it can take the nerf just fine. If NaTm is a hard combo, it should not become trivial by means of level 3 spell which is in starting book.
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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 15:29

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

VeryAngryFelid wrote:If NaTm is a hard combo, it should not become trivial by means of level 3 spell which is in starting book.

if natm is a hard combo its because it doesnt have anything that makes it trivial. having spider form movespeed doesnt make natm trivial in the slightest. Having a spell be used for the sake of movement speed on a race, while the same spell can be used for the sake of power(spriggan/centaur spider form) or to actually stack with that race's mutations (tengu/demonspawn spider form) is a interesting aspect of it.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 15:42

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero wrote:having spider form movespeed doesnt make natm trivial in the slightest.


Let me disagree with this. The spell allows to escape from most dangerous monsters be it early Ogre or Hydra in Lair. I explored dungeon as Ice Beast in my last OpTm game and as Spider in my last NaTm game...
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 3rd January 2018, 16:18

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Running away from the enemy makes the game trivial to you? Are you one of those people who have 100% winrate on spriggan or you cant do that because its tedious bad design?

bel

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Post Thursday, 4th January 2018, 05:02

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Don't feed the trolls.

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Post Thursday, 4th January 2018, 12:35

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Self polymorphing in order to turn into something that is not slow so you can run away from a bad situation is one of the dumbest, most fun strats you can do as a naga.
You are sugesting that a naga, that is already considered a bottom tier race, should move slow while in pig form and is calling the person with the most naga wins in history a troll doesnt make you look good. But thanks for insulting me anyways

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Post Thursday, 4th January 2018, 21:23

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero wrote:Running away from the enemy makes the game trivial to you? Are you one of those people who have 100% winrate on spriggan or you cant do that because its tedious bad design?

I could be mistaken but I think that's the same player who streaked mummies of chei, so it's quite possible the game is trivial to them :)

That account: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/cheimu.html

Of course to look up that name I had to get through all the other players who streak mummies, which there are actually several of...Some people might be crazy. Longest mummy streak is Elliptic's 11 wins, broken by MuMo: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/elliptic.html . Used various gods, but a lot of Sif Muna and Ashenzari. The MiMo died in lair to a death yak (while waiting to teleport). So maybe the game isn't won when you enter lair :)

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Post Friday, 5th January 2018, 06:01

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

Yes, CheiMu is my account (my signature leads to Sandman25 user who has signature linking to 3 of my 4 accounts). CheiMu had an extra limitation - all characters should have been played according to their starting background, it explains why it took so many attempts to win MuEn. Try it and you will see how nontrivial the game is when you cannot run away as a light armour character with dagger...

Edit. This is offtopic of course.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 5th January 2018, 13:03

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

dynast (nawn) has played 100 games, between 2016-02-03 19:24:42 and 2017-12-02 16:00:01, won 90 (90.0%), high score 3626230, total score 199444601, total turns 5437043, play-time/day 0:31:51, total time 14d+19:11:43.

I bet you cant do that on a NaTm. I know i cant, and let me explain why:

You are comparing spider form, which is a spell that you normally start with or never learn, with NOTHING instead of all the other backgrounds that start with something else, and transmuter is a awful background for naga (you start in robes, unarmed, without stealth and none of your spells are ranged or do direct damage, and you cant spam snakes) and yeah, you might win it consistently, you might have some easy runs ahead of you, but you are not gonna have trivial runs in general and i find it outrageous that you consider running from a hydra making your game trivial, first because hydrae are a joke for any naga since they have no ev or ac and their attack is less effective with ac characters, which you are not gonna have if you are a tm until you get statue form or not use tm. Second, death yak packs would be the actual danger(heck, even blink frogs can be more scary than a hydra), you not mentioning them, specially when talking about spider form shows your lack of understanding.
You use buzz words like "trivial" to try to make your argument sound and then you double down on it, making the word loses its meaning

Most of my nagas are tab free when they reach lair, its usually the point where they reach xl13 and can constrict things. It just means that the game is pretty much won, but it still requires me to know what i am doing. The moment i call my game trivial is when im going out of my way to fight pan lords during the orb run.

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Post Friday, 5th January 2018, 13:27

Re: Make forms not suppress movement mutations

ezero,

Are you dynast?
Can you write it in a new thread please? I am NOT going to prove you that normal speed NaTm of Oka with its +20% HP and nice magic/UC aptitudes becomes superior to everything except Ce with bow but maybe it will be interesting to someone else.
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I have 100% win rate (1 out of 1) as NaWn, it proves exactly nothing and I was sincerely surprised how easy NaWn start is


Edit. It looks like we have different meaning for word trivial. For me it's "I can do some mistakes and still win easily". For you it looks closer to "I can lean on tab and still win easily"
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