Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 45

Joined: Monday, 2nd March 2015, 11:55

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 08:09

Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

With the ability to forget spells via spellbooks gone and with wands now stacking, is it time yet to make spellbooks work more or less the same way as runes?
I.e. they are permanently added into a separate inventory and don't take space in the main inventory?

I guess this will effect trog worshipers somewhat, but only if they actually chose to pick the book up instead of burning it on the spot.

Or maybe add a "copy spells from spellbook" action that destroys the physical book but makes all spells in it permanently memorize-able for this char?

The way it works now there is zero reasons to carry a spellbook with you anyway, you practically never memorize spells in a situation when you don't have a safe access to your stash. Thus it ends up mostly adding nothing but unnecessary inventory management with you carrying all found spellbook to the stash and going to that stash every time you want to learn a new spell.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3679

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 09:44

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

I think the best way would be to add new button for copying spells from a given book to new spell "inventory" so player will press a button (probably "," will work fine meaning the action is triggered when the book is picked up), will see a screen (similar to M) with all spells from the book including failure rate, level, magic schools, power and then can copy several or all spells to spell "inventory". Copying all spells should be easy but still it should be possible to copy just a few spells when player knows they will never use some spells to avoid having too many spells in spell memorization screen.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 45

Joined: Monday, 2nd March 2015, 11:55

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 10:26

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I think the best way would be to add new button for copying spells from a given book to new spell "inventory" so player will press a button (probably "," will work fine meaning the action is triggered when the book is picked up), will see a screen (similar to M) with all spells from the book including failure rate, level, magic schools, power and then can copy several or all spells to spell "inventory". Copying all spells should be easy but still it should be possible to copy just a few spells when player knows they will never use some spells to avoid having too many spells in spell memorization screen.

Yea, if we don't want to remove the actual spellbook from the game once it has been "processed" I guess the most straightforward way to go would be just adding options to:
- copy an individual spell into your spellbook (from the same individual spell description page where you can (M)emorize it from)
- copy ALL spells you can memorize right now (that are not in your spellbook yet)

And make this spellbook of your's a pseodo-item you always carry by default.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 227

Joined: Monday, 4th September 2017, 10:53

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 11:21

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Trog lets you burn spellbooks.

Can either:

A) remove this ability altogether.
B) only allow the player to do it before picking up a spellbook
-this promotes tedius behavior of luring monsters over the books
C) make spellbooks a stackable inventory item for Be as an exception to the general behavior of spellbooks.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 45

Joined: Monday, 2nd March 2015, 11:55

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 11:29

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

crawlnoob wrote:Trog lets you burn spellbooks.

Can either:

A) remove this ability altogether.
B) only allow the player to do it before picking up a spellbook
-this promotes tedius behavior of luring monsters over the books
C) make spellbooks a stackable inventory item for Be as an exception to the general behavior of spellbooks.

If we simply allow to copy spells into a single large "personal" spellbook (as above) Trog players will be unaffected as individual books will still be items. There would just be no need to carry them around after you have copied the spells.

bel

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1746

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 11:50

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

See this thread. Essentially, there is support for "goldifying" spellbooks, but the work is not complete (and there was some behind the scenes stuff which I don't know and don't care about).

I'm guessing that if someone makes a working implementation to handle all the issues raised, it has a good chance of being accepted.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1538

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Monday, 27th November 2017, 18:13

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

crawlnoob wrote:Trog lets you burn spellbooks.

Can either:

A) remove this ability altogether.
B) only allow the player to do it before picking up a spellbook
-this promotes tedius behavior of luring monsters over the books
C) make spellbooks a stackable inventory item for Be as an exception to the general behavior of spellbooks.


Trog should auto-burn spellbooks when they come into LOS.

For this message the author Rast has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 542

Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Tuesday, 28th November 2017, 05:54

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

But that would remove their use as a weapon. Not that that is really very useful after the very early game.
Maɟaŋ

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 746

Joined: Thursday, 5th December 2013, 04:01

Post Tuesday, 28th November 2017, 07:04

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Majang wrote:But that would remove their use as a weapon. Not that that is really very useful after the very early game.


I don't think that's a big loss. I might even consider it a positive, personally. The mechanic is really clunky (it's a lot of inventory management and key presses), uninteresting from a gameplay standpoint (it's a conjure flame that takes longer to cast but can target enemies), weird from a flavor standpoint (book burning for piety is fantastic flavor, throwing books at enemies before burning them so that the flames hurt the enemy is kind of nonsensical), and unnecessary (Trog's design would be just as coherent, and Trog would still be one of the most powerful gods in the game without it).

For this message the author Quazifuji has received thanks: 6
Fingolfin, Majang, nago, Rast, Terrapin, VeryAngryFelid
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1481

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Tuesday, 28th November 2017, 11:45

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

The spells should imo be all automatically copied to the M menu, with the ability for the player to highlight the more interesting ones by marking them, and to hide the others.

About book throwing, I think that the mechanic wasn't supposed to be used with throwing That's why it's so clunky.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif

For this message the author Shtopit has received thanks:
MainiacJoe

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5640

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 28th November 2017, 18:41

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Burning books is one of trogs more powerful tactical options, if you aren't using your books for the conjure flame, you are missing out. (Conjure flame being a fantastic spell whatever the origin)

Trog could take the loss of burning spellbooks, power-wise, but it is one of the few tactically interesting things he does, so i would personally prefer to see it retained, but then having books be physical objects doesn't bug me at all.

Having trog burn books on sight would kind of suck, some people do like to switch away from trog and memorize spells after the switch to another god. (Do we need to make leaving trog worse than his wrath?)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3679

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 06:03

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Burning book does cost piety (you would have higher piety if you burned it as soon as it comes into view) and it is the weakest ability in most fights (bia, free berserk and mr++ handle everything in 3 rune game).
Books must burn instantly because:
1) they make first games of a new player more annoying (abandoning Trog before first win is a very bad idea so there is no point in spell check)
2) Ru is arguably weaker god and still has a permanent cost for abandoning it at non-zero piety. With Trog you can find books after abandoning it so the cost still will be smaller.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3679

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 06:07

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Siegurt wrote: (Do we need to make leaving trog worse than his wrath?)

Yes. I consider Oka's wrath more deadly as it does not become almost trivial with +blink item.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5640

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 07:20

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Burning book does cost piety (you would have higher piety if you burned it as soon as it comes into view) and it is the weakest ability in most fights (bia, free berserk and mr++ handle everything in 3 rune game).
Books must burn instantly because:
1) they make first games of a new player more annoying (abandoning Trog before first win is a very bad idea so there is no point in spell check)
2) Ru is arguably weaker god and still has a permanent cost for abandoning it at non-zero piety. With Trog you can find books after abandoning it so the cost still will be smaller.

You've mixed up the words "must" and "could"

Nothing about either of these points makes instant book burning obligatory (They aren't even arguments that the game would be better with it.)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5640

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 07:24

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote: (Do we need to make leaving trog worse than his wrath?)

Yes. I consider Oka's wrath more deadly as it does not become almost trivial with +blink item.

So you think Trog should have the most deadly wrath? (or at least that it should be more deadly?)

I mean that's a fine opinion to have, but "Trog's wrath is too weak" is not the same as "Not only should you suffer wrath, but you should also get another totally independent penalty unrelated to wrath"
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3679

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 08:45

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

I think it should be impossible to abandon gods but in this thread I am supporting to burn books instantly when they come into view. It is completely fine from both flavor and balance points of view IMHO
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1481

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 12:36

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Automatic item destruction doesn't strike me as good. It's more like "tedium=optimal" since a player that aims for the TSO swap could have to avoid certain vaults.

Trog could keep book burning as it is, just deactivating autopickup for books. This would exclude thrown book burning.
Otherwise, the throwing aspect can be enhanced. The first time you try to collect a book with autopickup, you are informed that you will not learn its spells, and that Trog will turn it into incendiary ammo. Make spell books unreadable for Troglodytes, so you don't get to choose which spells you preserve.
Or just remove book burning. I think that goldifying books would be such an improvement, that it's worth the little price. If it's done in trunk, an alternative to book burning can be thought out in the following months
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif

Spider Stomper

Posts: 205

Joined: Saturday, 20th September 2014, 07:40

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 12:58

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Book burning is basically conjure flame that can work on a tile with a monster; it's quite useful but berserkers are also so powerful that I'm always hard pressed to find situations where I need them outside of some niche cases.

Book burning fits Trog flavor quite well though, so it'd be nice if that was preserved somehow.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3679

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 13:06

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Shtopit wrote:Automatic item destruction doesn't strike me as good. It's more like "tedium=optimal" since a player that aims for the TSO swap could have to avoid certain vaults.


If players choose to ignore loot from vaults (losing their chance to use a great unrandart or just a few of scrolls of blinking) for the purpose of having easier time in extended, that's good and meaningful decision-making IMHO
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1481

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 13:20

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

The problem isn't ignoring loot from vaults, it's having to look out for vaults and avoid entering them to avoid spontaneous combustion.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5640

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 16:37

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Shtopit wrote:Automatic item destruction doesn't strike me as good. It's more like "tedium=optimal" since a player that aims for the TSO swap could have to avoid certain vaults.


If players choose to ignore loot from vaults (losing their chance to use a great unrandart or just a few of scrolls of blinking) for the purpose of having easier time in extended, that's good and meaningful decision-making IMHO


There exist some vaults that always generate books, i would find it highly tedious and spoilery that you could predictably preserve some books with foreknowledge and careful manual exploration.

I am pretty firmly against reintroducing uncontrolled item destruction in any form, it was and remains, a terrible mechanic.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Spider Stomper

Posts: 227

Joined: Monday, 4th September 2017, 10:53

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 16:49

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Yeah, I left it out on purpose because I figured the bottom line would be at least allowing the player the decision of when to burn the book, even if they couldnt pick it up with Trog. As for book vaults, you could just not do elf 3 and you are guaranteed what is it, at least five books or something? slime usually has at least one or two as well. thats not even random vaults, that is a way to game the system every single time.

bel

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1746

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Wednesday, 29th November 2017, 20:12

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Removing book burning is easiest and best.

For this message the author bel has received thanks: 3
duvessa, nago, VeryAngryFelid

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1538

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Thursday, 30th November 2017, 07:39

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

crawlnoob wrote:Yeah, I left it out on purpose because I figured the bottom line would be at least allowing the player the decision of when to burn the book, even if they couldnt pick it up with Trog. As for book vaults, you could just not do elf 3 and you are guaranteed what is it, at least five books or something? slime usually has at least one or two as well. thats not even random vaults, that is a way to game the system every single time.


So making a strategic decision is bad?

Agreed that the book minvaults are a bit problematic. But only a little.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 227

Joined: Monday, 4th September 2017, 10:53

Post Thursday, 30th November 2017, 10:38

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

I think you misunderstood what I said. I didnt include the option that removed the ability for a strategic decision from the player (trog autoburning books on sight) because I didnt think it was even an option worth discussing.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 33

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:00

Post Thursday, 30th November 2017, 17:14

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Delaying something like this because Trog has one ability twith minimal game impact that is affected by it is rather silly.

The change is something that is completely in line with Crawls design goals of eliminating tedium and should happen.

Trog can get some other fluff ability any time.

For this message the author CPTANT has received thanks: 3
duvessa, Majang, nago
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 542

Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Friday, 1st December 2017, 05:15

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

CPTANT wrote:Trog can get some other fluff ability any time.

Proposal: make magic staves one-time throwable area-of-effect weapons, like exploding tomahawks, just stronger, and with a radius of three tiles.
Maɟaŋ

For this message the author Majang has received thanks:
nago
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1481

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Friday, 1st December 2017, 15:56

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

A thematically sound alternative to book burning is, indeed, staff-burning.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5640

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 1st December 2017, 16:03

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

Shtopit wrote:A thematically sound alternative to book burning is, indeed, staff-burning.

My innner 10 year old thinks "staff burning" sounds vaguely dirty and makes some sort of embarrassing STD joke in your general direction.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Spider Stomper

Posts: 234

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 2nd December 2017, 09:54

Re: Should Spell-books take up inventory slots still?

I'm generally against removing game features in the interest of streamlining, but in a case such as this I feel that the gain by removing additional inventory tedium by making spell memorization easier justifies bulldozing the trog book burning ability. Perhaps the ability can simply be changed into a different ability which does not have the current entanglement with spell books. As to what the skill could become, there are lots of possibilities. Off the top of my head, perhaps something with some flavor in the spirit of anti-magic, create a field of anti-magic similar to silence for a few turns which doesn't prevent spellcasting but greatly increases the chances for miscasts (with fun effects.) I think that reintroducing item destruction would be a step backwards.

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.