The Tavern

I'm a big fan of the change to situationally useful potions like Ambrosia instead of strictly bad ones. I think the same thing should be done with Degeneration.

Torment is usually the biggest threat in extended for any character that's not immune. It creates a huge divide between characters with Necromutation and characters without it. I personally think melee characters should have more options for dealing with torment.

So, my proposal is:

1)
Change "Potion of Degeneration" to "Potion of Effluvium". This would give:
-- stat damage (like Degeneration does now)
-- temporary immunity to torment
-- temporary immunity to negative energy

2)
Make Lignification better for late-game characters in heavy armor:
-- reduce the base armor on Lignification by 2
-- don't meld body armor in tree form
-- give Deformed Body while in tree form

ps
I'm new to the forums, but I'm not a completely new player; I've been recording a streak with some Hell runes.

My off the cuff response is that temporary stat damage is pretty inconsequential.

Maybe give some kinda penalty like some drain, or slow, or a damage malus till the effect wears off; or even a few turns after the effect wears off. That way you trade skill levels, damage, or possibly a means to run for being able to tank Torment and Negative Energy

Why not add rTorm to !resistance instead? That's a potion that gets pretty useless late-game, as your AC, EV, and innate/equipped resistances take over protecting you against elemental damage. This would make the potion useful for the whole game, while adding a strategic element to its use early on.

Also, FWIW, I don't think a rare consumable needs a downside - being a rare consumable is enough. The player already can't spam them.

Alternate proposal from a while ago: Combine Might, Agility, Brilliance and Degeneration. Effects of all three for a relatively long duration, followed by big hit to all stats. Potion of doping.

I like the proposed degeneration tweak. Lignification already is useful occasionally. Trolls quaff it when they engage hydrae. So I wouldn't change that.

I quaff lignification frequently if I've identified it early enough on that the AC is still enough to protect you from most threats.

I like the Effluvium suggestion but Effluvium is a terrible name. There's plenty of still relatively common, understood concepts which could be used. I'd suggest ethereal or phasing - you partially become ghostlike, and cannot be tormented (or resist torment). I don't know what Effluvium means and I suspect most players don't either. Phasing used to be a buff to EV but that's been removed for a long time, so I think it'd be safe to reuse it, if not, ethereal hasn't been used for players before as far as I know.

I agree stat gain is a weak penalty, but as mentioned the potion is limited by item generation and doesn't need a strong downside. If desired, it's possible to increase the amount of stat loss to make it more significant anyways. The goal is to make the player want to quaff the potion in the right circumstances, so the punishment shouldn't be too severe.

Edit: I gave in and looked up the word - it means discarded or useless material. So in your proposal to make the potion useful, you named it "Useless potion".

I agree with posters above that lignification is definitely already situationally useful. There are arguments for and against strictly bad potions/scrolls, but since there's already only one type of each, I don't mind them. But making them situationally useful would be fine too.

My post about stat damage wasnt so much that it wasnt strong enough, but that it was pointless. So either make it a real drawback (if needed), or just get rid of it entirely.