Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields


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Post Saturday, 11th November 2017, 14:58

Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

Of the three types of defense, all have different strengths and disadvantages, but also hidden mechanics.

AC: GDR, which no-one understands and is considered to be unimportant. Bonus.
EV: Giant malus if you dont have sInv against an invisible monster. Malus.
SH: Giant malus if trying to defend against multiple attacks per turn. Malus.

The EV/SH mali do not have a place in modern crawl and should be removed
. This could in one fell stroke also be used to remove ACs hidden mechanic as well.

Arguments pro-removal:

- crawl is not a fight simulation
. SH penalty is supposedly because "your shield cant be in multiple places at once". The exact same is true for dodging, and it doesnt have this mechanic! On the same level of simulationism AC would have to get a "durability/repair" mechanic.

- hidden mechanics are bad and should be removed.

- EV/SH are generally considered to be weaker than AC, and could use the minor situational/major buff anyway.

- unseen horrors, invisible orc wizards, Sigmund etc are enough of a challenge to the relevant EV based characters. They can use the buff - mostly affects octopodes. Other species can wear enough armour/have enough HP/have sInv.

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Post Saturday, 11th November 2017, 21:48

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

The easier way is to inform the player of these bonuses and maluses.

The exception is GDR, which is really complex and pretty much impossible to convey to the player. There also is the imho weird fact that it doesn't work on mundane missiles. I think that it should just depend on total AC, instead of having individual, unknown values for each armour piece, with the added bonus that a naked Gr has 24% GDR, but this is increased by robes to 31%, while other species don't gain GDR from robes.

So just make GDR scale with the player's total AC, and, in the AC description, write "AC protects you better aganst melee attacks than against ranged attacks with weapons." Slight buff to Dr and Na in melee, but I don't think it would be the end of the world.

Or one could really just remove GDR and raise AC from armour to compensate.
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Post Saturday, 11th November 2017, 21:57

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

Which doesnt adress the simulationistic/balance problems. Also the game is already so very overloaded with information that needs to be learned, it really doesnt need another couple of exception rules.

Also AC is already stronger than EV/SH, so no need to buff in compensation for GDR reduction.
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Post Saturday, 11th November 2017, 23:33

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

The matter, I think, is that AC is stronger, but requires you to give up something for it (the higher levels of magic). EV doesn't.
I also don't think that SH is supposed to be seen as an alternative to AC. The choice is between two handed or one handed with shield.

The shield malus against multiple enemies also is one of the 3 or 4 situations that try to give some tactical depth to Crawl, I wouldn't remove it for this. Its efficiency against single opponents could be increased, if it needs to be. Now sure, one can discuss if it's like amulet of harm 2.0, in that it actually doesn't ask you to make better decisions, and just makes the normal decision (fighting one to one) even better.

I am for buffing EV, but in different situations, like against paralysis. Those are situations in which you essentially are left to only AC to passively defend yourself, and relying on EV means "lol death". This is especially silly, since you have no way to raise MR outside of items, so it's just "pray to the floor god" (or wear armour).

These of course aren't the only ways -- I personally wouldn't have expected weapons to get differentiated the way the were, instead of the old paper/rock/scissors that many games like. Giving more staying power to wizards would also mean less comical escaping and kiting while MP replenish.

In general, I think that there is a lot of room for discussion.
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Post Sunday, 12th November 2017, 00:38

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

Shtopit wrote:The matter, I think, is that AC is stronger, but requires you to give up something for it (the higher levels of magic). EV doesn't.
I also don't think that SH is supposed to be seen as an alternative to AC. The choice is between two handed or one handed with shield.
There's also a secondary choice with SH of "train shields so you can cast magic, or sacrifice magic and save XP(because SH/EV/acc returns from training shields ain't great)"

So it's kind of like
  • 2H weapon, big damage
  • 1H weapon and shield, no shield training, magic penalty
  • 1H weapon and shield, shield training, XP penalty
Either way you're giving up a bit more than just 2H damage, either in XP or magic flexibility.

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Post Sunday, 12th November 2017, 00:57

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

Shtopit wrote:The shield malus against multiple enemies also is one of the 3 or 4 situations that try to give some tactical depth to Crawl, I wouldn't remove it for this.


But getting attacked by multiple enemies at once is already penalized by the fact that you're getting attacked by multiple enemies at once. Shields being especially bad against multiple enemies doesn't really change your tactics at all because you already want to minimize the number of enemies attacking you anyway.

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Post Sunday, 3rd December 2017, 18:34

Re: Remove hidden malus from dodging/shields

le_nerd wrote:Of the three types of defense, all have different strengths and disadvantages, but also hidden mechanics.

AC: GDR, which no-one understands and is considered to be unimportant. Bonus.
EV: Giant malus if you dont have sInv against an invisible monster. Malus.
SH: Giant malus if trying to defend against multiple attacks per turn. Malus.


Guess which two go to zero when paralyzed.

Yes I'm salty.

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