Staff of Hexes (or Charms)


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th September 2017, 18:39

Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

One up-side of enhancer staves is that several of them (fire, cold, air, poison) give a pip of resistance to the corresponding damage type.

As I'm taking my current character into the Vaults with only 1 available pip of mR+, I was thinking it'd be nice to have a 'Staff of Hexes'. My immediate selfish desire for such an item would be to convey a single pip of mR. But for those who branch into Hexes for spells like Confuse and/or Tukima's Dance, which seem broadly helpful and not tied lock-step with a stabber playstyle, I think a hexes staff would be nice for spellpower boost as well. I don't delve into hexes very often ... so I can't opine much on how many Hex-based spells are very spellpower-reliant.

I'd expect a few arguments here that some veterans would rather remove all enhancer staves, than add a new one. :) Or, a flavor-based argument that "Hexes are for stabbers, so putting a booster (and a corresponding mR+) property on a staff is illogical." Then we start exploring the concepts of another recent thread, that talked about some kind of off-hand enhancer for spellcasters.

TL;DR: Whether on a staff or on some new kind of caster off-hand item, please consider an item type that boosts Hexes and provides 1 pip mR+. Muchas gracias.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 9th September 2017, 20:26

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

So the problem with a hexer staff, specifically, is that the optimal use for such a staff, is to swap to your staff, hex something, then swap back to a dagger for stabbing, or if you're using some other weapon in conjuction with hexes, swap back to whatever that is.

Hexes are different from conjuration-focused schools in that you usually cast a single hex against a creature to give you an advantage, rarely do you kill things *directly* with hexes (with the exceptions of the ones that crossover to conjurations) as such, having a hex staff would encourage a whole lot of tedious swapping (particularly in the set of characters who primarily kill things with a weapon after hexing something) letting the hex staff *continue to give the character a benefit after it's unequipped* which is generally a decent litmus test for "is this prone to increase tedium"
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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th September 2017, 20:57

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

I see your points about the swapping tedium.

Trying to remember how many different item types (non-artifact) can roll a MR+ ego. Hat ... cloak .... torso armour .... rings .... bucklers? Not sure about that last one.

Anywhoo ... it still would be nice if some hand-held non-artefact item conveyed both MR+ and a Hexes boost. A blade, an off-hand caster type item (a totem or voodoo doll?!?), etc. My current game headache is RNG-driven, da good stuff just has not dropped, so I'm a walking target for sentinel marks, paralysis or banishment on an otherwise pretty diesel character. Such is DCSS life.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 03:49

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

The natural receptacle for a hex enhancer ego would be daggers. There have been a number of proposals to move staves to the off-hand with wear/wield mechanics like shields. With that sort of system, a staff of hexes or charms or enchantments would be fine.

The argument that the connection between hexing and stabbing makes a swappable staff enhancer a bad idea is totally on target if you insist on existing dcss hex mechanics. To my mind, though, the strength of that connection suggests that the hex and the stab should be the same thing, in other words that hexes (i.e. the single target, line of fire based spells like confuse, slow, petrify, etc.) should work as duration spells that proc hex effects on melee attacks. This would radically curtail the spamminess of current hexes.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 04:46

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

OP, your idea is so great that they already did it. But then they removed it.

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Staff_of_enchantment

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 16:32

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

As another alternative, you could add a secondary effect to ring of magic resistance to enhance hexes and charms. I like the idea of a special dagger that boosts them, though.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 19:31

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

Sounds like a vampire dagger fixedart rework. Or SB could have hex power as unique ego instead of vorpal.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 21:10

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

watertreatmentRL wrote:The natural receptacle for a hex enhancer ego would be daggers. There have been a number of proposals to move staves to the off-hand with wear/wield mechanics like shields. With that sort of system, a staff of hexes or charms or enchantments would be fine.

The argument that the connection between hexing and stabbing makes a swappable staff enhancer a bad idea is totally on target if you insist on existing dcss hex mechanics. To my mind, though, the strength of that connection suggests that the hex and the stab should be the same thing, in other words that hexes (i.e. the single target, line of fire based spells like confuse, slow, petrify, etc.) should work as duration spells that proc hex effects on melee attacks. This would radically curtail the spamminess of current hexes.


So similar to confusing touch? That is a different, but also reasonable, approach to hexes.

However, i am not sure how you mean it avoids the swapping problem (unless it is predicated on the "put the hex enhancer property on daggers", but that handles the swapping issue by itself, without any changes to the mechanism of hexing)
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 04:33

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

Yes, like confusing touch without the weird accuracy and damage mechanics, more like a weapon branding spell.

On reflection, I guess dcss duration spells do not update spellpower continuously, but instead determine that at casting time. I had hellcrawl duration spell mechanics in mind when writing that. The drawback of having to train staves or apply hexes at a lower rate would deter the player from using the staff for this purpose under those mechanics. Of course, you may ask what other hexes you'd want spellpower for and there I have to admit there's limited scope.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 15:17

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

I would prefer it if staffs in particular (and weapons in general) did not give resistances or defences. It clogs up inventories (staff of air is often the only serviceable rElec source around) and often leads to lots of swapping. I concede that the benefits are usually marginal, but sadly that doesn't mean it isn't done.

Staffs increasing in power with XP-gain, including granting resistances, would be OK I guess. It would be better if fast-swap items did not carry powerful passive effects. Elemental Staff is the worst offender, but at least it's rare and one can dump a lot of other swappables immediately.
Last edited by 4Hooves2Appendages on Monday, 11th September 2017, 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 15:24

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

Why not just make enhancer amulets, with a spellpower malus on the appropriate school when removed? Enhancers fit best IMO the design space that amulets are in now, that of a strategic choice with opportunity cost instead of swappable boosts.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 15:49

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I would prefer it if staffs in particular (and weapons in general) did not give resistances or defences. It clogs up inventories (staff of air is often the only serviceable rElec source around) and often leads to lots of swapping. I conceded the the benefits are usually marginal, but sadly that doesn't mean it isn't done.


I'm often guilty of tedious hunts for the Staff of Air for this very reason. :). Primarily for Titans in V5 and electric golems and black draconians in Zot.

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 20:05

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

Was there a reason why the staff of enchantment was removed? Was it to prevent an easy source of MR+ swapping once a rare item was found?
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 19:18

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

There's no explanation in the (very old) commit:

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6 ... 85f952a88c

but I'd expect that and the "swap to this staff for increased hex / enchantment spell power, then switch back for killing dudes or whatever" is pretty un-crawl-like item design.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 21:25

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

njvack wrote:There's no explanation in the (very old) commit:

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6 ... 85f952a88c

but I'd expect that and the "swap to this staff for increased hex / enchantment spell power, then switch back for killing dudes or whatever" is pretty un-crawl-like item design.


I vote then for baking the Hex+ and MR+ pairing into an unrand armour. Pick your favorite slot, scarves come to mind for me.

"Tukima's Psychedelic Scarf":
- Spellpower boost to Hexes
- MR+
- Reduce stealth somehow (Who really can sneak stealthily wearing such a hypnotically multi-hued garment?)

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 20:57

Re: Staff of Hexes (or Charms)

"Tom Baker's Psychedelic Scarf"

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