New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Thursday, 10th August 2017, 10:27

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Annihilator is already the XL.27 Conjurations skill titles, so that will probably have to change
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Post Thursday, 10th August 2017, 12:05

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

When the patch is rejected by dcss devs, I suggest you talk to the yiufcrawl dev. I suspect you'll have it playable at gnollcrawl.tk in couple of days.
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Post Thursday, 10th August 2017, 15:32

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

edgefigaro wrote:I think this is most of a potential patch.

job-data.h
  Code:
{ JOB_ANNIHILATOR, {
    "An", "Annihilator",
    0, 7, 5,
    { SP_DEEP_ELF, SP_NAGA, SP_TENGU, SP_BASE_DRACONIAN, SP_DEMIGOD, SP_FELID},
    { "robe" },
    WCHOICE_NONE,
    { { SK_CONJURATIONS, 4 }, { SK_SPELLCASTING, 2 }, { SK_DODGING, 2 },
      { SK_STEALTH, 2 }, },
} },


crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc
  Code:
{
    return species == SP_FELID
            && (job == JOB_GLADIATOR
                || job == JOB_ASSASSIN
                || job == JOB_HUNTER
                || job == JOB_ARCANE_MARKSMAN)
           || species == SP_DEMIGOD
               && (job == JOB_BERSERKER
                   || job == JOB_CHAOS_KNIGHT
                   || job == JOB_ABYSSAL_KNIGHT
                   || job == JOB_MONK
                   || job == JOB_ANNHILATOR)
           || job == JOB_TRANSMUTER
              && (species_undead_type(species) == US_UNDEAD
                  || species_undead_type(species) == US_HUNGRY_DEAD);
}

job-type.h
  Code:
JOB_ANNHILATOR,



crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc
  Code:
    case JOB_ANNIHILATOR:
        you.religion = GOD_VEHUMET;
        you.piety = 35;
        break;


newgame.cc
  Code:
    {
        "Zealot",
        coord_def(15, 0), 20,
        { JOB_BERSERKER, JOB_ABYSSAL_KNIGHT, JOB_CHAOS_KNIGHT, JOB_ANNIHILATOR}
    },

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Post Thursday, 10th August 2017, 17:03

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

There's a more fully functional (presumably, I haven't tested it) patch already up on Github here from a couple of days ago for anyone who wants to try it themselves.

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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 14:23

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

I'm rather ambivalent that the patch was rejected (entirely expected), but I really wish you would have addressed it from the perspective of bookless spellcaster that recieves RNG damage spells start rather than zealot start. The interesting thing about the proposal isn't being able to pick vehu at start. The interesting aspect is the bookless spellcaster.

Specifically, every reasonable user of Vehumet already has a book. This character doesn't. Thus, the following statement is not true:

Be and CK were kept because their D:1 play is substantially changed from normal play, compared to just finding and taking the god early...None of that's really the case for Vehumet


The D1-L1 experience for this specific character type would be different than anything else that currently exists in the game barring an odd wanderer start who stumbles across Vehu on d1, or the random altar on d2. Even this is a stretch as the wanderer will have other tools.

That having been said, I understand that its the rest of the baggage that goes along with zealot starts that is the dealbreaker. I don't have a good way of squaring this circle, none has been proposed in this thread. The nice thing about vehu zealot is its really simple to implement.

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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 14:58

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Seems like that is exactly the expected response if you're familiar with devteam statements on this matter over the last few years. They have certain commitments based on past changes and discussions that are not going to change because there's a thread on tavern.

Personally, I think this background would be better than at least three already existing book backgrounds from a design perspective (this is not saying much). It would probably be popular with players too. If the interest and energy is there, it could easily be part of a crawl branch with the ethos of Poschengband. Yiufcrawl is already staking out that kind of ground. There's a good niche there for a branch that looks to try out new content and rehabilitate old content without going nuts mechanically, like circus animals. If you can accumulate enough new, reasonably good content there's probably an audience to be found.
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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 17:32

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

edgefigaro wrote:I'm rather ambivalent that the patch was rejected (entirely expected), but I really wish you would have addressed it from the perspective of bookless spellcaster that recieves RNG damage spells start rather than zealot start. The interesting thing about the proposal isn't being able to pick vehu at start. The interesting aspect is the bookless spellcaster.

Specifically, every reasonable user of Vehumet already has a book. This character doesn't. Thus, the following statement is not true:

Be and CK were kept because their D:1 play is substantially changed from normal play, compared to just finding and taking the god early...None of that's really the case for Vehumet


The D1-L1 experience for this specific character type would be different than anything else that currently exists in the game barring an odd wanderer start who stumbles across Vehu on d1, or the random altar on d2. Even this is a stretch as the wanderer will have other tools.

That having been said, I understand that its the rest of the baggage that goes along with zealot starts that is the dealbreaker. I don't have a good way of squaring this circle, none has been proposed in this thread. The nice thing about vehu zealot is its really simple to implement.

Why not reply with this on the github thread, where it might garner an authoritative reply and/or due reconsideration?
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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 18:11

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Aside: for the love of god remove Be. Most degenerate background in the game, utterly pointless and uninteresting.
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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 19:27

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Be is fun IMHO.
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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 19:53

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

If y'all want to talk about Be, please start a new thread.

watertreatmentRL wrote:If the interest and energy is there, it could easily be part of a crawl branch with the ethos of Poschengband. Yiufcrawl is already staking out that kind of ground. There's a good niche there for a branch that looks to try out new content and rehabilitate old content without going nuts mechanically, like circus animals. If you can accumulate enough new, reasonably good content there's probably an audience to be found.

A Crawl Slash'em would be totally cool and fun; I really liked the nostalgia branch, for example.
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Post Friday, 11th August 2017, 20:26

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

mattlistener wrote:Why not reply with this on the github thread, where it might garner an authoritative reply and/or due reconsideration?

I thought about that, but then realized that MarvinPA commented in this thread and I didn't want to do something spammy or break the conversation into more pieces...

FWIW, the pull request isn't closed, though.
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Post Wednesday, 16th August 2017, 14:26

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

So as per recommended, I made a post on that pull request. Thank you for the pointer.

Going forward, I'm more interested in playing around with the idea in wizmode than arguing in the abstract. I can do that easilly and to the extent that it will satisfy my curiosity, regardless of whether vehu zealot is introduced in webtiles.

Below is my experience:

I tried it out, a few games of HuCj, dropping book and taking vehu immediately, starting with default setting of 15 piety. Its really bad, so i buffed it a bit along the way.

FIRST GAME

First game i got a flame tongue on D1, made it to D3 before getting poisoned by an adder and dieing.

SECOND GAME

Second game was bad, I made it to D3 XL 5 but never got a spell gift. I suspect this character is vulnerable to piety swings. I had no answers to worms or an orc in scale mail. I died to a an orc priest when my retreat was blocked. I probably could have been able to live with a hex wand and a venom dagger that dropped, but I'm not exactly trying to play flawlessly and make full use of a favorable floorgod.

THIRD GAME

Third Game I upped the piety at the start from 15 to 35 (starting Be piety) and character plays more stably. Freeze is immediately offered for a second spell and a versatile kit. I get offered throw frost and hit ** early on D2 which I immediately take. Ignite poison is offered my first kill into D3. I'm XL 4 and only have 3 spell levels, and I pass.

D4 has dowan and duvessa which i don't want to fight. I try but my freeze isn't strong enough at the moment. A bullfrog skeleton I don't have good answers to at the moment, but its also not a threat and i chop it down with a +0 flail of protection. I hit *** on D4 but die shortly thereafter chain confused by sigmund.


FOURTH GAME
Next up I am offered searing tongue at lvl 1 and get my second gift on my first kill on D2, throw flame. I die to natasha after being slowed. This was probably avoidable, and I could have just jibbed the early game with a +2 short sword of distortion.

FIFTH GAME
My final run i decide to give myself a potion of brilliance in addition to 35 piety. I want to be able to power though a fight against a unique. Sting is my starting gift and throw frost is offered on the last mob of D1. I decide to pass for now, i have too many long range spells. Second mob of D2 is terrance and I see another 2 !brilliance on the floor. I quaff mine and get to work with sting. Its not very effective, but I do bring him down eventually, after my potion expired >.>

On D3 I equip two rings of magical power and immediately learn throw frost. I !brilliance to throw frost an ogre down, netting me level 6 and access to the inner flame spell. I pick it up, I have some spell levels to spare.I don't try to fight sigmund.

*** is aquired on d4. I encounter edmund and a quokka and think this may be an excellent place to try out inner flame. The quokka resists my first attemt to hex it and I promptly blow my self up and die.

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Post Wednesday, 16th August 2017, 16:34

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Your conclusion seems to be that this background would certainly not be overpowered. That should give the folks on the dev team peace of heart to try this...
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Post Wednesday, 16th August 2017, 21:45

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

edgefigaro wrote:Going forward, I'm more interested in playing around with the idea in wizmode than arguing in the abstract. I can do that easilly and to the extent that it will satisfy my curiosity, regardless of whether vehu zealot is introduced in webtiles.

Below is my experience:

I tried it out, a few games of HuCj, dropping book and taking vehu immediately, starting with default setting of 15 piety. Its really bad, so i buffed it a bit along the way.

[lots of stuff]


I just gotta ask: When there's a branch available that lets you play as an actual "Annihilator" or whatever, why don't you actually play that and report on your experience? Or if there's a problem for you getting that compiled, why don't you talk to people from gnollcrawl.tk and get an experimental branch going? I'm pretty sure they'd be down.
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Post Wednesday, 16th August 2017, 22:15

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

I -can- play an actual vehu zealot, in wizmode, and tinker with it freely at my own leisure. I don't see what having a properly supported fork offers me other than saving two dozen keystrokes at the beginning of a game. (Seriously, its the following: &_v[enter], &^35[enter] &o!brilliance[enter])

I don't know what gnollcrawl can offer that wizmode can't.

Spectators? I could put up a twitch stream, but this could be conducive.
Publicly accessible morgues? If people want this, I can provide.
The ability to export the idea to other players and collaborate? Ok, you got me here.

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Post Wednesday, 16th August 2017, 22:44

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Well, I'll put it this way: There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background. This is not because the code isn't there. It's there. If you're serious about this idea, and you seem reasonably enthusiastic at least, you're talking about a fork. So the direction in which your interest can go that will end in something interesting, rather than frustration, is in developing player interest in this different version of crawl.

Now of course you can just make your own hacked up version of crawl or screw around with wizmode all by your lonesome. Or, I suggest, you and perhaps some like-minded crawl players can get organized and do something.
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Post Friday, 18th August 2017, 06:21

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

watertreatmentRL wrote:There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background.


It wouldn't exactly be the worst thing ever. Except it would make Sif even more irrelevant than it already is.

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Post Friday, 18th August 2017, 20:22

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background. It doesn't matter how cool you think it would be, there is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background.

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Post Friday, 18th August 2017, 20:58

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

duvessa wrote:There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background. It doesn't matter how cool you think it would be, there is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background.
Why are there never any arguments about this but just these block refusals?
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Post Friday, 18th August 2017, 21:39

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

There are arguments about it, like the one going on here. The current line on zealots is pretty longstanding.

Just to make it clear, for my part, when I say you guys should go make a fork, I'm not thinking "lol, like that's going to happen." I am thinking "more people getting directly involved outside of the DCSS process is good." The devteam has a lot of things right and a few important things wrong, but more importantly they have a lot of commitments to positions that take more than a few tavern threads to change. Nevertheless, from what I can tell, they're pretty open-handed about helping people interested in hacking crawl, even when those people have little or no interest in being involved in DCSS development. Just going and doing things is more useful and valuable than being salty about ideas you like going nowhere with the devs. The most important thing the devs have going for them is that they're organized and they do things. Do likewise, folks.
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Post Friday, 18th August 2017, 21:42

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Fingolfin wrote:
duvessa wrote:There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background. It doesn't matter how cool you think it would be, there is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background.
Why are there never any arguments about this but just these block refusals?

The post was not an argument or refusal. It was a prediction.

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Post Saturday, 19th August 2017, 05:05

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

Fingolfin wrote:
duvessa wrote:There is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background. It doesn't matter how cool you think it would be, there is absolutely no way DCSS is ever going to have a Vehumet zealot background.
Why are there never any arguments about this but just these block refusals?
Because I don't want to waste your time. Everything I've seen about the subject strongly suggests that the active devteam, as a group, is against adding more starting gods unless they offer some really exceptional feature, and will continue to be against it for a long time. CK is the closest thing the game has to an official challenge mode, AK starts in Abyss, and Be has tremendous momentum behind it due to being the first hints mode character and its extreme popularity (MiBe is practically the face of the game these days).

Vehumet doesn't offer a special starting branch or an especially challenging game, and it is unlikely that this will change. You could reasonably argue that this start deserves to be added to the game as much as Be does, but that line of thought would, at best/worst, get Be removed. Unless you convince a dev to commit a Vehumet zealot out of spite towards watertreatmentRL, you're not going to get a Vehumet zealot added to DCSS. Hence the response of "doesn't matter".

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Post Sunday, 20th August 2017, 05:06

Re: New background: Annihilator (Vehumet zealot)

I tried the start in wiz mode by starting as a HuCj, dropping the starting book, and gaining Vehu at 35 piety, and I wasn't impressed. Vehu is so weak and his gifts so unreliable to a early game character that the start felt like playing a melee character that was force to be atheist and start with gimped stats. You could argue that a weak start that forces you to worship a suboptimal god is a good thing, but it feels so unthematic to be a vehu zealot and be expected to bash things with pointy sticks as your primary offense, combined with the large number of challege conducts avalible, not to mention that CK is a much better challenge start, that I don't think this would actually be good for the game in practice even if the devs were open to it, even though the start sounds good in theory.
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