permanent allies

[smock]

Although I really hope something along these lines can be done for permanent allies and interlevel travel some day.

In the shorter term, would creating "wait for allies to catch up of they get more than 2 (or so) spaces away" an option for autotravel/explore? This might not be easy to code, though....

[dpeg]

smock: Would surely be possible, but as far as I see it, the underlying problem is that you can amass permanent allies. If they only came in small groups...

[KoboldLord]

Permanent allies introduce a huge number of problems from interface issues to abuses (e.g. polymorphing). I say it's better to get rid of them altogether instead of trying to kludge around these issues.

Clearly, if something looks like it might be hard to do, we should give up immediately, right? Just hack everything that looks vaguely suspicious out of the game with a putty knife, and then recalibrate our suspicions based on the new status quo so we can find more things to gouge out. Whether the player base likes having actual features in the end product is irrelevant.

One out of six gods is designed around permanent allies. That's not a minor design element you're handwaving away as expendable.

[galehar]

I agree with KoboldLord. You very often state that feature X is problematic and should be removed without even giving arguments.
The biggest problem with permanent allies is travelling and exploring, but it can be fixed. Polymorph abuses too. Just make them angry if you throw mutagenic clouds in their face.

[dpeg]

minmay: You express very little appreciation for those who coded Beogh. The god has a lot of appeal and is unique. There is a clear proposal for how to improve matters with this god (in a nutshell: reduce the number of allies cruising along with you). If you want to remove Beogh because you think permanent allies are too much to handle, you have to fork.

[dpeg]

minmay: I still don't like the idea of a Give command, but all problems with equipping allies (which are real) will be easier to solve once the number is capped to something small (think 6 or 8 or 12). I believe that a good algorithm can be invented; the cheap solution (design-wise, not interface-wise) is to allow players to sort out things manually.

Travelling is a problem because autotravel does not work well with standard-speed allies. (It never worked with slow allies, like zombies, but we have solved that in a different way.)

[jpeg]

In my recent game, the biggest issue I had with Beogh was indeed having to herd my followers over equipment. (Any equipment, I had no interest in optimizing their equipment choices.) Making monsters include loot piles as possible pathfinding targets would make this much easier. Also, the pickup toggle but I'm sure that can be improved, too.

But then I hadn't even bothered entering the Orcish Mines, planning to keep them for later, so I hardly ever had more than 6 orcs around me, which was plenty - until I fell through a shaft.

[absolutego]

herding is way worse than equipment management (with one caveat i guess: cursed equipment can ruin a good ally). my last beogh game was on 0.7 or 0.8. just getting the good (experienced) orcs to follow you down the stairs when you're surrounded by two dozen friendly orcs was very hard, especially when all the stairs in a level where in closed areas (corridors and the like). you work around it, but it's not easy. a list of apostles, with all other allies ignoring you (waiting for you in the mines or where you converted them) would be a big improvement already. smart inter-level autotravel is not beogh-exclusive.

[dpeg]

Yes, the situation could be improved considerably by the following steps:
a) reduce number of orcs who travel with you (named apostles)
b) make them more clever to get to where you are (even if they lose you, they should appear a bit later)
c) they should go out of their way to pick up stuff
d) Beogh could uncurse their gear (while he's enchanting it)
e) better algorithm to make an orc decide what the better weapon/armour is

Anything else missing?

[jpeg]

a) reduce number of orcs who travel with you (named apostles)
b) make them more clever to get to where you are (even if they lose you, they should appear a bit later)
c) they should go out of their way to pick up stuff

Should b) also apply to other permanent allies? c) could probably to extended to a select set of other monsters, too

d) Beogh could uncurse their gear (while he's enchanting it)

Beogh's enchantment already uses the usual enchantment methods and thus includes uncursing. I guess that particular blessing is a bit rarer than I'd have thought. Maybe Beogh could occasionally uncurse equipment for other blessings, too, or at least prevent further curses from taking place.

e) better algorithm to make an orc decide what the better weapon/armour is

What's wrong with the current one? ("Higher damage, more AC")

[galehar]

I've split the thread.
Maybe instead of apostles we can use a more general solution. Put an absolute cap at 18 and also a HD cap so your maximum reduces when your orcs start levelling up (with a minimum cap at 12). That way you can still keep a big army of lowly orcs in the beginning.
Auto travelling and exploring could also keep track of distance from allies and wait for them to catch up from time to time. It can also be interrupted if one allies doesn't catch up (maybe it's under attack). It can be done in a thematic way: one of the orc would shout at you that "Wait! foo is under attack!".
For improving taking stairs in cramped space: any allies which can see you or see an allies who can go downstairs, and which is safe (no hostile in view) will follow you. For each ally, calculate distance to stairs, divide by monster speed, and put them in a queue to pop them on the new level at the right time. Taking stairs with hostiles in view follow the current rules.

[dpeg]

a) reduce number of orcs who travel with you (named apostles)
b) make them more clever to get to where you are (even if they lose you, they should appear a bit later)
c) they should go out of their way to pick up stuff

Should b) also apply to other permanent allies? c) could probably to extended to a select set of other monsters, too

Yes, for example for Yredelmnul gifts (some of them are slow). Yes for c).

e) better algorithm to make an orc decide what the better weapon/armour is

What's wrong with the current one? ("Higher damage, more AC")

There is a reason that players try painstakingly to equip their orcs manually (by having the orcs walk back and forth over a desired item). The reason could be resistances, I think.

[dpeg]

I've split the thread.
Maybe instead of apostles we can use a more general solution. Put an absolute cap at 18 and also a HD cap so your maximum reduces when your orcs start levelling up (with a minimum cap at 12). That way you can still keep a big army of lowly orcs in the beginning.
Auto travelling and exploring could also keep track of distance from allies and wait for them to catch up from time to time. It can also be interrupted if one allies doesn't catch up (maybe it's under attack). It can be done in a thematic way: one of the orc would shout at you that "Wait! foo is under attack!".
For improving taking stairs in cramped space: any allies which can see you or see an allies who can go downstairs, and which is safe (no hostile in view) will follow you. For each ally, calculate distance to stairs, divide by monster speed, and put them in a queue to pop them on the new level at the right time. Taking stairs with hostiles in view follow the current rules.

This is similar to doy's old proposal of a summon cap (which I support). For Beogh I just thought that thematically the apostles would make a lot of sense (with all the naming, for example). It's not necessary, of course. One aspect of my Beogh proposal is that Orc is treated as the homeland where new converts go (they just end up there after a while) and from where the best orcs are send as replacements if a travelling ally dies (and you ask for the replacement). There is a very large pool of orcs, after all, and drawing from it should be as convenient as possible. I guess that the latter idea is not really connected with the apostles, I just have this knack for stealing content of the Christian religions.

[absolutego]

"chain" line of sight for moving through levels would be an improvement, but you'd still lose allies often. same goes for moving down a level to a staircase without many free squares around (unless i'm missing something). and you'd still have to wait for them to catch up, too. a cheap solution would be to allow for inter-level recall, restricted to beogh and yred (*). it's not ideal, but it could work as a stopgap until autotravel with allies can be improved (which isn't easy by any stretch). it can be exploited, but so can, and is, same-level recall. it could also be a new god-granted power, with a piety cost. unless there are technical implications i'm not aware of, because i'm sure this has been brought up in the past.

(*) there are other permanent allies, but don't have the flavour these do, and are often renewable, as per twisted resurrection.

limiting on hit dice is unintuitive, and would make you lose orcs throughout the game. the more allies you have, the lower their level will be, as they have to share the experience. 12 should be enough (and meaningful!).

[galehar]

"chain" line of sight for moving through levels would be an improvement, but you'd still lose allies often. same goes for moving down a level to a staircase without many free squares around (unless i'm missing something). and you'd still have to wait for them to catch up, too. a cheap solution would be to allow for inter-level recall, restricted to beogh and yred (*). it's not ideal, but it could work as a stopgap until autotravel with allies can be improved (which isn't easy by any stretch). it can be exploited, but so can, and is, same-level recall. it could also be a new god-granted power, with a piety cost. unless there are technical implications i'm not aware of, because i'm sure this has been brought up in the past.

But other allies warn you when the chain is broken. And autotravel/explore wait a bit for them if needed. And if they don't catch up, you're warned and travel is interrupted. There can even be a confirmation prompt when taking stairs if you're leaving some allies behind.
I hate recall, so I certainly don't see inter-level recall as an acceptable solution. I'd rather improve explore/travel to make them really aware of allies, waiting for them and stopping if you lose some. Then recall can be removed and replaced by telepathy. You can see where all your allies are and they can see where you are. And you can give them order. Also tells on which floor are off-level allies.

[dpeg]

Yes, recall is a broken mechanic, already for summons. The fact that it also figures as an interface convenience make it just worse.

[absolutego]

convenience is why i suggested it, i'm not fond of it either. and liked or disliked, it's already in the game.
quick proposal: recall could move allies to random positions in your field of view, without guaranteeing they'll be packed around you.

But other allies warn you when the chain is broken. And autotravel/explore wait a bit for them if needed. And if they don't catch up, you're warned and travel is interrupted. There can even be a confirmation prompt when taking stairs if you're leaving some allies behind.

all of this sounds sensible, but i don't know what would happen if you can't move all the allies downstairs in one turn because there's no room for it. (i'm assuming they wouldn't be smart enough to come in droves yet, because inter-level travel would be solved then.)