Divine powers & species restrictions


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8654

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 16th July 2017, 18:46

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

nago wrote:* a much broader solution - which probably should be addressed in a specific topic: let all the gods' powers bypass racial restrictions, resolving this messy situation with all the problematic powers.
I would go the other way: don't let any gods' powers bypass racial restrictions. No potion petition for Mu, no Trog's Hand regeneration for DD.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 7
amaril, chequers, Gigaslurp, Lasty, luckless, runewalsh, VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6182

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 16th July 2017, 20:23

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

Lavandula wrote:Sequell says that nobody have beaten the game as DD without divine healing since removal of yellow wands. I'm not sure if it's outright impossible, probably just blatantly grindy, defined by luck and plagued by backtracking.
!lg * sp=DD god=ash|chei|dith|fedhas|hepliaklqana|kikubaaqudgha|nemelex|oka|qazlal|uskayaw|xom|yredelemnulveh|sif|wu|zin|"" won 0.19|0.20|0.21

You're missing the | between yred and veh, also yred (technically) has divine healing.

I'm actually surprised that nobody has won a kiku game, vampiric draining was always my DDNe bread and butter, although it's quite possibly due to lack of interest rather than difficulty.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1737

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Monday, 17th July 2017, 06:18

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

Lavandula wrote:Sequell says that nobody have beaten the game as DD without divine healing since removal of yellow wands. I'm not sure if it's outright impossible, probably just blatantly grindy, defined by luck and plagued by backtracking.


It's quite possible, just need to find a mediocre vamp weapon before you run out of mana.

For this message the author Rast has received thanks:
nago
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 21st July 2017, 23:04

Divine powers & species restrictions

nago wrote:a much broader solution - which probably should be addressed in a specific topic: let all the gods' powers bypass racial restrictions, resolving this messy situation with all the problematic powers.


Mod note: Here's the topic. I've tried to pull in relevant stuff from the other thread but it was all mixed and phpbb is not very good at this sort of thing.

Non-mod note: As a general design principle, I'm solidly in favor; I think god powers should override species' restrictions unless there is an extremely solid reason for them not to. But I'm more in favor of consistency than I am in either outcome.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks: 3
Airwolf, archaeo, nago

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 714

Joined: Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 11:04

Post Saturday, 22nd July 2017, 08:30

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

duvessa wrote:
nago wrote:* a much broader solution - which probably should be addressed in a specific topic: let all the gods' powers bypass racial restrictions, resolving this messy situation with all the problematic powers.
I would go the other way: don't let any gods' powers bypass racial restrictions. No potion petition for Mu, no Trog's Hand regeneration for DD.


No health-on-kills for DD, too?
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Saturday, 22nd July 2017, 11:21

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

kuniqs wrote:
duvessa wrote:
nago wrote:* a much broader solution - which probably should be addressed in a specific topic: let all the gods' powers bypass racial restrictions, resolving this messy situation with all the problematic powers.
I would go the other way: don't let any gods' powers bypass racial restrictions. No potion petition for Mu, no Trog's Hand regeneration for DD.


No health-on-kills for DD, too?

Health-on-kills doesn't contravene DD species restrictions, as it is not 'regeneration'.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4289

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Saturday, 22nd July 2017, 20:08

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

njvack wrote:I think god powers should override species' restrictions unless there is an extremely solid reason for them not to.

So should Okawaru be able to gift a plate to a Dr, who could then wear it?
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Sunday, 23rd July 2017, 11:07

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

No. It isn't Oka's power to allow species to use slots they can't normally use.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 66

Joined: Monday, 21st September 2015, 03:35

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 13:38

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

I'd like to see undead able to worship TSO. TSO allows them to wield the ******-blessed weapon by means of personal intervention, but other weapons of holy wrath remain unwieldable. The character is flavoured as a "self-hating undead" who functions as a repentant but necessarily imperfect vessel of TSO's will, with the expectation of being mercifully destroyed after delivering the Orb.

For this message the author monkeytor has received thanks:
nago
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 543

Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 14:09

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Sounds like you have to wrap your request inside a lengthy narrative to make the flavour work...
Maɟaŋ
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 14:45

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Sprucery wrote:So should Okawaru be able to gift a plate to a Dr, who could then wear it?

No, but if there were a god whose power was "you can wear items in restricted slots" then that god would allow Dr to wear plate and undead to wield HW.

I actually think maybe Oka should be able to gift plate to Dr, or that Oka would try to gift you a plate but then gift you nothing instead. Most Oka gifts are effectively useless to begin with.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 14:47

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

njvack wrote:I actually think maybe Oka should be able to gift plate to Dr, or that Oka would try to gift you a plate but then gift you nothing instead. Most Oka gifts are effectively useless to begin with.


If something is often useless, it's usually buffed, not nerfed. Oka is not Xom.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 853

Joined: Thursday, 29th August 2013, 18:39

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 15:51

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Let gargoyles worship Yred.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 16:27

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
njvack wrote:I actually think maybe Oka should be able to gift plate to Dr, or that Oka would try to gift you a plate but then gift you nothing instead. Most Oka gifts are effectively useless to begin with.


If something is often useless, it's usually buffed, not nerfed. Oka is not Xom.

I just mean it's weird that going Op^Oka gives you a better chance of getting Bear Spirit than Hu. And unless I'm mistaken, that's how things work right now. This is super OT for my own thread :/
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks:
duvessa

Halls Hopper

Posts: 66

Joined: Monday, 21st September 2015, 03:35

Post Thursday, 27th July 2017, 00:50

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

njvack wrote:I just mean it's weird that going Op^Oka gives you a better chance of getting Bear Spirit than Hu. And unless I'm mistaken, that's how things work right now. This is super OT for my own thread :/


I would counter that worshipping Oka with an equipment-restricted species is a meaningful strategic choice to increase the chances of getting a decent hat/barding/whatever that would otherwise only be available via acquirement, shops, or the floor. It's a way to manage probabilities in your favor. The odds of getting bear spirit are low in any case, but the odds of a human getting a good helmet are much higher.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 366

Joined: Thursday, 12th June 2014, 06:56

Post Thursday, 27th July 2017, 01:55

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

monkeytor wrote:I'd like to see undead able to worship TSO. TSO allows them to wield the ******-blessed weapon by means of personal intervention, but other weapons of holy wrath remain unwieldable. The character is flavoured as a "self-hating undead" who functions as a repentant but necessarily imperfect vessel of TSO's will, with the expectation of being mercifully destroyed after delivering the Orb.


Has anyone come up with a good non-flavor justification for either restriction? I don't see why undead worshiping TSO or wielding holy wrath weapons is overpowered.

As for the flavor, personally I think letting undead worship TSO and wield holy wrath weapons opens up opportunities for more flavor, not less - like the above.

For this message the author ion_frigate has received thanks:
nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 27th July 2017, 05:06

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

njvack wrote:I just mean it's weird that going Op^Oka gives you a better chance of getting Bear Spirit than Hu. And unless I'm mistaken, that's how things work right now. This is super OT for my own thread :/

It depends on point of view. Once you got a good shield and hat as Op you start to be disappointed by Oka gifts while with other species you still may be gifted other awesome armor like gauntlets of war or +23 cpa.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 03:52

Post Friday, 28th July 2017, 20:16

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

johlstei wrote:Let gargoyles worship Yred.


Yeah, I thought this post would be (sensible) stuff like this instead of a spoilery way to limit Deep Dwarves to only one god and to screw over mummies even more.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 276

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Saturday, 29th July 2017, 16:12

Re: Gozag shouldn't offer useless potions

Lavandula wrote:Sequell says that nobody have beaten the game as DD without divine healing since removal of yellow wands. I'm not sure if it's outright impossible, probably just blatantly grindy, defined by luck and plagued by backtracking.
!lg * sp=DD god=ash|chei|dith|fedhas|hepliaklqana|kikubaaqudgha|nemelex|oka|qazlal|uskayaw|xom|yredelemnulveh|sif|wu|zin|"" won 0.19|0.20|0.21


IIRC, jeanjacques won a DDAs^Jiyva in the 0.20 tournament that started worship on d:2, it's been done at least once.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/je ... 184309.txt
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

For this message the author Vajrapani has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4289

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Saturday, 29th July 2017, 16:16

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Well, Jiyva does give you divine healing.
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 276

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Saturday, 29th July 2017, 16:22

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Actually? I guess I never payed attention when I played with Jiyva. It only seemed good for eating my loot and having that insta-kill ability.
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6182

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Saturday, 29th July 2017, 18:41

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Vajrapani wrote:Actually? I guess I never payed attention when I played with Jiyva. It only seemed good for eating my loot and having that insta-kill ability.

Yeah he heals you when he eats your loot.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
Vajrapani
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4289

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Saturday, 29th July 2017, 20:38

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

If the wiki is correct:
Piety level *****: "Blob"
Cure Bad Mutations: Removes a randomly selected bad mutation. (8 MP, 200-400 Food, 15-23 Piety)
When your fellow slimes consume an item, you receive a piety/200 chance of recovering some HP. The amount depends on the price of the item. (Passive)
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Monday, 31st July 2017, 07:47

Re: Divine powers & species restrictions

Presumably some kind of combination of vamp weapon and various necromancy spells should be enough. Having a solid ranged attack and/or summons should help to...

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.